Carystus

Oleuropein edit

Hello, Carystus, concerning this edit and this subsequent edit. 1) in your edit, I felt there was too much chemical detail for the lede per MOS:LEAD and 2) the 'closely related' compounds are unsourced (as well as not being appropriate for the lede). It would be useful if you wrote a Chemistry subsection following the lede. --Zefr (talk) 01:30, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

Hello Zefr. About the closely related compounds, the were there in the lede before my edit, I only introduced the term seco-iridoid. You can have a point in that the chemical relations could have it's own section, but the raison d'être for my edit was to improve on the existing, as I found it to be negligent that there was no mention of it being a seco-iridoid, and I also find it wrong to state, as the article does now, that it is a tyrosol derivative, which it is not. These substances are in general not tyrosol derivatives, but phenethyl alcohol derivatives. I also felt it could be said in a more coherent way, which I offered. The article was very short before my edit, and not much longer after; if I had made a separate section for chemistry, there would be no lede left, and I had no intention to make a major contribution to the article. In general, a brief chemical overview is not misplaced in the lede of a chemical substance; it is rather a problem that the lede is so short, so it appears to focus on chemistry only. We have the process backwards, because the lede should be the head of a body, an introduction to the article proper, but the latter has not been written. My suggestion is, the article is reverted back to my edit with addition of your contribution, the leaching using lye, and a call for an expansion of the article. I will take it upon me to find a source for the related compounds. Carystus (talk) 13:52, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

As the article is a WP:STUB and we should adhere to MOS:LEAD, I feel we can lay the groundwork for future expansion of the article by acknowledging the chemistry in the lede but by developing a separate chemistry subsection. I placed an 'under construction' banner and removed discussion of chemistry in the lede while you find sources and edit a chemistry section, and we discuss other ways to improve the article. I'm copying this conversation to the Oleuropein Talk page so others can take part. --Zefr (talk) 15:17, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

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Vanagandr and Jörmungandr

As for the recent reverted edits of Jörmungandr, gandr meaning beast essentially only appears in Vanagandr (Fenrir) and no one knows why. Old Norse gandr is otherwise used as described in the Jörmungandr article, something often elonggated with relation to a living essence or magic etc etc, often a magic staff or similar. Gandr meaning beast is just an empty guess in an attempt to explain Vanagandr. Its possible Vanagandr is a post viking age title simply meaning heathen magic thing or creature. Interestingly fenrir is depicted as a snake wolf on the Gosforth Cross. Blockhaj (talk) 21:03, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the bit of information that 'fenrir is depicted as a snake wolf on the Gosforth Cross', I wasn't aware of that. It does strengthen the case. I still believe in the use of gandr in this context to imply a dangerous beast. In the context it makes perfect sense, whereas 'Giant serpent' or 'Giant wand' or the like, is not to the point of the grave danger the serpent/wolf posed. I intend to look into the use of gandr if/when I have time, and come back to the subject. Is it you who have written the section Etymology or contributed to it with the meaning 'elongated entities and or supernatural beings'? At any rate, I think that the use of gandr to mean 'dangerous beast' should be in this section as one etymological possibility, that is if it reflect ancient use. One thing that come to mind is the timeline; we could both be right, in the sense that 'dangerous beast' is the ancient use, while elongated/supernatural is the connotation later generations have come to understand and use. That is an explanation I would favor, since in my search for the roots of Norse mythology, I have come to believe that it goes back many millennia, and I think we must seek out the original ancient meaning to best understand Norse mythology. I invite your comments. Carystus (talk) Carystus (talk) 08:41, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

I asked around, another idea is that it means the wolf is lean, as in hungry, which would make sense in mythological context, as he is bound. The prefix Vana- also refers to the river Ván, a river flowing through Midgard down to Hel, which starts at the mouth of Fenrir. It is his saliva since he cannot close his mouth since becomming bound. Since gandr can mean river this makes sense. Vanagandr thus means something akin to "the river spirit of Ván", or just straight up the river ván, but in reference to Fenrir himself. Most of the time, these old poetic names have several meanings so as to give the reader the ability to make his/hers own philosophical meaning. Blockhaj (talk) 18:24, 7 November 2023 (UTC)