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Articles for deletion nomination of Megh bhagat

I have nominated Megh bhagat, an article that you created, for deletion. I do not think that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Megh bhagat. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time.

Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Sophitessa (talk) 06:37, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

AfD message

I fully agree with you. The base article lacks references. In addition to working on internet, I personally contacted the author on phone and found that he had not maintained bibliography meticulously. I think the article should be deleted immediately. It will save the time being spent on discussion. At some other page a Wiki friend has suggested rewriting of this article. I agree with that. I would like to create it with a heading 'Megh' and not 'Megh bhagat'. I shall take care of references and follow Wiki guidelines to the best of my capability. I thank you dear Wiki team.(Bharat Bhushan Bhagat 14:05, 11 August 2009 (UTC))

• I think the article on the Megh people, misnamed Megh bhagat, has value and should be kept, but needs a lot of work. A basic principle is that any material in Wikipedia should be verifiable, supported by reliable sources, preferably independent of the subject. Wikipedia is a place to record generally accepted facts, not a place to advance novel theories or to promote causes.I have cut out some content and added tags to others, and will probably cut out more. This is not an attack on the people who are the subject of the article. I am just trying to make sure that all the material is factual and does not try to advance any particular point of view. That the name "Med" is derived from the Latin word "Mediterranean" is ridiculous. Perhaps the Megh are descended from Harappans, but an assertion like that needs backing from some recognized authority. You can help by finding reliable independent sources that give information on the subject and adding the information - with references to the sources. Aymatth2 (talk) 03:14, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Hello. I think Joshua Project report now forms the basis of this article. It is good. The photo pasted belongs to a Meghwal lady. All the subgroups of Meghs may not identitify themselves with it as she is wearing a typical Rajasthani dress. A large group of Meghs in northern India is comfortable with Punjabi dress. Think about photo of a Megh lady given in Joshua Project report or something like that [[1]]. By the by, why we should not keep the list of subgroups which has been deleted today. I think keeping it in its shortest form will be useful in future. (Bharat Bhushan Bhagat 17:01, 14 August 2009 (UTC))

• See Wikipedia:Verifiability. It should be possible to confirm the assertions in the article from reliable sources given in the References section. I could not find any source or sources for the list of subgroups other than the bhagatnetwork.blogspot site. Generally sites like this are not considered reliable sources, since they are often the work of one individual with no guarantee that they have checked the facts. So I dropped the section on subgroups. Aymatth2 (talk) 20:48, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Hello Aymatth2. I am thankful to you. you have worked on both Megh bhagat and Meghwal and made them good stubs from where they can be developed. So far as subgroups of Meghs are concerned, these have been sufficiently mentioned at [[2]] under the head 'People'. I think they can be safely included in the article.(Bharat Bhushan Bhagat 23:26, 14 August 2009 (UTC))

• A good way to look at this or any article is to try to see it from the viewpoint of a student in Lima, Peru who has been asked to write an essay on the subject. What would they be interested in? Or change the names and places around and see it from the viewpoint of a student in Srinigar writing an essay on a tribe of Quechua people of Peru. What would be important to them, and what would not? A catalog of names like Laraos, Lincha, Apurí, Chocos and Madean is very unlikely to mean much to the Srinigar student. An argument that the Kichwa had been suppressed by the Cajamarca might be a bit more interesting - if the student could figure out from the article who those people were and why they were fighting. But mostly they would be looking for reliable information on the people, their lifestyle, environment, history and the issues they are facing today. Reliable is a key quality - this is an encyclopedia, not a blog and gives verifiable information, not opinions or original research. Write the article as if you were explaining the subject to a student from the other side of the world, and assume that anything you write that is not clearly supported by the reliable independent sources that you cite will be deleted. Aymatth2 (talk) 03:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Nicely said. Now I have a better vision. In subhead 'Megh Women' a citation was required for Ms.Vimla Bhagat, IAS. I found one and pasted as {{http://74.125.153.132/search?q=cache:wcrwwEb3GugJ:www.iipa.ernet.in/upload/Himachal%2520Pradesh.txt+Vimla+Bhagat+IAS&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=in}}. I have found that she has since retired from the services. However this site gives a clear name and address of this officer. Please indicate if it suffices.(Bharat Bhushan Bhagat 06:29, 15 August 2009 (UTC))

• The source is clearly reliable, showing that Vimla Bhagat held office. It does not say that she was Meghwal, but I assume that is implied by her name and would not be challenged. So it is o.k. content with an o.k. reference. It raises a technical question for which I do not have an answer. I think, in theory, you could reference the current version of the page, but with accessdate=25 Jul 2009. The reason you should always provide an accessdate in a reference is that, as with this one, content changes. Aymatth2 (talk) 14:25, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Ms. Vimla Bhagat belongs to Megh caste. In India we follow many traditions while naming a child. For example my name may be suffixed with :- 1.The name of the major group or 2.the name of subgroup or 3.the name of Gotra (sub subgroup) or 4.the Rishi Gotra i.e. the name of the Rishi who is believed to be the first ancestor of a very big group. Here, it is interesting to note that the Hindus as a single group have a certain number of common Rishi Gotras which are used by all castes, including the oppressed castes like Megh. In northwest India (Jammu and Kashmir and Punjab) Megh is more common. Meghwal is more common in Rajasthan and Gujarat. Every individual has a choice to use any of the above options while registering the name with concerned authorities. In Ms. Vimla Bhagat's case, name of the sub group has been preferred. Whatever I have explained is a tip of the iceberg. There are many traditions in this regard.

I have replaced the word 'speculated' with 'propounded' in the material under the head 'Origins'. I think 'propounded' is a positive expression with regard to Alexander Cunnigham's work.(Bharat Bhushan Bhagat 16:46, 16 August 2009 (UTC))

I have seen 'Meghwal' page. This page is developing fast and rightly so. Now I can see a merger of Megh bhagat, Meghwal and Meghwar. For the time being, I will be working on 'Megh bhagat' and sometimes on other pages. You have done great beginning Aymatth2. I am thankful to you.(Bharat Bhushan Bhagat 17:50, 16 August 2009 (UTC))

A reference has been provided at citation No.3 in the article. However, message 'citation needed' I have not touched. If you find this citation sufficient then I shall do the rest.(Bharat Bhushan Bhagat 06:56, 19 August 2009 (UTC))

In the article Jammu and Kashmir (under the head 'Demographics') I have added and wiki linked Megh bhagat as they are always left out due to social prejudice despite the fact that they are in good numbers there as referred in para 11 of document referred at serial number 7 in the article Meghwal. It can be linked as (http://www.kashmir-information.com/LegalDocs/51.html). (Bharat Bhushan Bhagat 05:21, 23 August 2009 (UTC))

Move

{{help me}} Is it advisable to suggest here to rename the article Meghwal as 'Megh'. Megh is a wider term from the angle that all Meghs and Meghwals claim to have descended from Rishi Megh. They have common roots. In case it is renamed as 'Megh' it will become easier to edit and reshape it. It will eliminate avoidable confusion as well.(Bharat Bhushan Bhagat 08:39, 25 August 2009 (UTC)) (talk) 16:55, 23 August 2009 (UTC)}

As the Megh article already exists, it would be better to rename it as Megh (people). You can do this by clicking on the "move" button at the top of the article. You can find more information at Help:Move. As there are several contributors to this article, I believe it would be advisable to discuss it first on its talk page Talk:Meghwal. Hope it helps. Calimo (talk) 17:24, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

• I support the move to Megh (people), but agree with Calimo that it is best to discuss it on the article's talk page. I would pose the question, give it a couple of weeks, and if there is no objection go ahead and move the article. Aymatth2 (talk) 00:21, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

References

I saw you added some sources to Meghwal. That is good. Everything in Wikipedia that could possibly be challenged should have a source. But there are four bits of information that should always be in a reference. The easiest way to do a correct reference to a web page is like:

<ref>{{cite web |url=... |title=... |publisher=... |accessdate=...}}</ref>

• url is obvious
• title is the name of the article, at the head of the referenced page
• publisher tells the reader where the information came from - important in establishing credibility
• accessdate says when you found the information. This matters, because websites change over time, but almost all of them are archived. So if someone follows a link and finds it is broken, or no longer holds the information you are citing, there is still a way to go back to the source as it was when you cited it.

You can add optional parameters like |author= |date= etc. but these four should always be present: where is it? what is it called? who published it? when? see Template:Cite web. A reference to a book is quite different. Template:Citation gives details.

Picky stuff, but important for a quality article. Aymatth2 (talk) 01:21, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

{{help me}} I am sorry. I think there were 29 references in Meghwal article on 24-08-2009. Perhaps I have accidentally deleted one. Can it be retrieved.

Hi Bhagat.bb, don't worry about making mistakes. Regarding how to retrieve a previous version, have a look at help:revert page. The following diff shows the edit which removed a reference:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Meghwal&diff=next&oldid=309563186

so, I've reincluded the reference. Hope that's ok. PhilKnight (talk) 14:58, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks PhilKnight. Thanks for the guidance.(Bharat Bhushan Bhagat 08:39, 25 August 2009 (UTC))

Help requests

{{help me}}1.This refers to edit of Meghwal by Drisz on 25-08-2009 at line number 210. Tribes as such do not exist in Punjab. There are castes only. It is suggested that 'Punjabi tribe' should be renamed as 'Social groups of Punjab'. It will be more near to the present reality of Punjabi people. Further a reference can be taken from the site http://censusindia.gov.in/Census_And_You/scheduled_castes_and_sceduled_tribes.aspx at second para (below table at site page). 2.There is at least one good books written on Megh people in Hindi language. Can I cite it in 'Meghwal'? Is translation of entire book a requirement? What could be the procedure.(Bharat Bhushan Bhagat 14:35, 29 August 2009 (UTC))

1. This should be discussed with other editors on the talk page of the article, Talk:Meghwal. See WP:CONSENSUS, WP:DISPUTE.

2. Sources do not have to be in English - it is preferred, but if no appropriate English reference exists then it is fine to use a reference in another language, and no translation is required. Please add (language:Hindi) (with that link) to the reference, to make it clear.

For more help, you can either;

• Leave a message on my own talk page; OR
• Use a {{helpme}} - please create a new section at the end of your own talk page, put {{helpme}}, and ask your question - remember to 'sign' your name by putting ~~~~ at the end; OR
• Talk to us live, with this or this.

Best wishes,  Chzz  ►  14:43, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Proposed Move of Meghwal

I have added a section to Talk:Meghwal for discussion of a proposed move to Megh (people). If there is consensus, I wlll do the move in 7 days. Please add your comments to the talk page. Aymatth2 (talk) 13:27, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

• This request has to wait for another editor to close it. People involved in the debate cannot close a requested move if there is any controversy, which there is. I doubt that the page will be moved for this reason. But whatever is decided, anyone searching for Megh, Meghwar or Meghwal will be directed to the article, which is the main thing. The only question is the title at the top of the page. Aymatth2 (talk) 14:04, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Baba Faqir Chand

 Done. You can add categories as well, if you wish - just add the link to the bottom of the article, matching the ones that are already there. You've done some good work, the article is much improved. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 12:13, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

The article looks better every time I check in. I did some reorganization to make the tone more neutral. This is what I did. In short, I took the sections you had and condensed some of them. I took the narrative of his life and made it a "Life" section (who was he?), which flows into his death. I added his will here, phrasing it as a description of his death, burial, and its effects (i.e. the will). Then I took the sections on his specific views and combined them into a "religious views" section (what did he believe?). Third, I left a section for Manavta Mandir; this seems to be one of his most notable achievements, so it gets a section. This is followed by the list of other disciples - do they have articles? Some reference listing them would work well, and this section is a good one to tie him with other related individuals. This is followed by the bibliography, and I'd like to find ISBN numbers for some of these books, esp. any that have been reprinted since. I took the honorifics and made them a new section, in the style of Pope Benedict XVI#Titles. Have a look, let me know where else I can help - but you know more about him than I, so change anything I screwed up if you wish. Good work, UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 15:07, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree, a photo would work well here. Unfortunately, I can't read Hindi - so I can't transfer the licensing information over. Who holds the copyright to this image? Where did it come from? Even if it's non-free, we can use it as a fair use image; with more information, I can set that up for you. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 12:16, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Unless the Manavta Mandir has released the photo from copyright, we can't use it as a free image. We can use it as fair use, though, in an article about Manavta Mandir. Let me see what I can come up with. As for the portrait - I need to know who took the picture, so that we can use it under fair-use for this article. As for a gallery - for now, I'd recommend uploading the images here, same as you did at the Hindi wikipedia. To the best of my knowledge, the process should be the same. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 14:27, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Not a problem - there's no deadline. Thanks, UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 14:52, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

So long as we have a Fair Use Rationale, which I added, a copyrighted image is OK. We have to be sparing in our use of them, but - since we don't have an article for the temple itself - I think it's fine in this article. I didn't see a copyright, either, I just assumed it'd be copyrighted to be safe. You can go ahead and re-add the image, if you wish. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 12:10, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

<-- Thanks - the new references look good. I tinkered with the "Hindi" in many of them, to get the template to display them properly. I also copyedited the beliefs section, to make it more neutral - please doublecheck and make sure I didn't butcher anything. I tried to keep the gist of it as much as possible. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 12:36, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

On Tone

I've removed the tone tag from the article; you're right, it is overdue, I think. Most of my concern was the language - not the Hindi elements, per se, but the prose. Take, for example, the second line of the Life section: With a background of poor Brahmin family and a suppressed childhood, he sought relief in the name of God. A more neutral version would be something like this: Chand grew up in a poor and repressive Brahmin family. At the age of ??, he left home to begin his religious studies. Fixes like that are what I was going for - and most of the article is fine, as far as policy is concerned. I'm OK with Hindi sources, and have no doubt that they match the content - that's also part of why I tried to leave as much as possible as it was, for fear of butchering the meaning. It's not perfect, yet, but it's good - and that's why I pulled the tag. Best, UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 12:49, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Looks good - so long as there is a reason to phrase it just that way, it works. I also had a look at Bhagat Munshi Ram; good work there. I removed one line, since it referred to another article. Usually, we just let the links do that. No problem, though - as I said, it's good work. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 18:59, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

File source and copyright licensing problem with File:Bhagat Munshi Ram.jpg

File Copyright problem

Thanks for uploading File:Bhagat Munshi Ram.jpg. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, then a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a restatement of that website's terms of use of its content, is usually sufficient information. However, if the copyright holder is different from the website's publisher, their copyright should also be acknowledged.

As well as adding the source, we also need to know the terms of the license that the copyright holder has published the file under, usually done by adding a licensing tag. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then the {{GFDL-self}} tag can be used to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media meets the criteria at Wikipedia:Non-free content, use a tag such as {{non-free fair use in|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Wikipedia:Image copyright tags#Fair use. See Wikipedia:Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

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Just becuase you do not see a copyright notice on the image or in the book does not mean it is not copyright to someone. Give us some details of the book it came from then maybe we can help you check. There is a possibility, if the image is old enough that it is freely licenced but it is most unlikely. If this is an Indian book you may want to review commons:Commons:Licensing#India. ww2censor (talk) 15:57, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

If you let me know where you found this image, I can format the copyright and Fair Use Rationale for you. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 19:01, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

The easiest method would be to list the photo with a license that permits its re-use. The Free Art License is a good one. Others could use (or modify) the photo, with some limitations. If this is your wish, you can add {{FAL}} to the image's page. I've update the source information to indicate that a family member (you) provided the image; you may be asked to confirm that you are the owner of the photo through our WP:OTRS system, which is a simple process. As for the rest - no wonder you are so passionate about the topic! May I ask, if it's not too delicate a subject, is your father still alive? I ask mainly because the article is unclear on the subject. Best, UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 05:51, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

File copyright problem with File:Bhagat Munshi Ram.jpg

File Copyright problem

Thank you for uploading File:Bhagat Munshi Ram.jpg. However, it currently is missing information on its copyright status. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously. It may be deleted soon, unless we can determine the license and the source of the file. If you know this information, then you can add a copyright tag to the image description page.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their license and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following this link.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thanks again for your cooperation. Skier Dude (talk) 08:33, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

File copyright problem with File:Manavta Mandir Hoshiarpur.jpg

File Copyright problem

Thank you for uploading File:Manavta Mandir Hoshiarpur.jpg. However, it currently is missing information on its copyright status. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously. It may be deleted soon, unless we can determine the license and the source of the file. If you know this information, then you can add a copyright tag to the image description page.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their license and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following this link.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thanks again for your cooperation. Skier Dude (talk) 08:41, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

File copyright problem with File:Faqir Chand.jpg

File Copyright problem

Thank you for uploading File:Faqir Chand.jpg. However, it currently is missing information on its copyright status. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously. It may be deleted soon, unless we can determine the license and the source of the file. If you know this information, then you can add a copyright tag to the image description page.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their license and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following this link.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thanks again for your cooperation. Skier Dude (talk) 08:41, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Image Sources

We can cite the "Faqir Chand" image as retrieved from that website, but we'll also need to see where they got it. If they pulled it from the Lane book, then we can cite that, and that it is copyrighted by Dr. Lane, and that we're using it under fair use. No problem. I'll ask for assistance on the Bhagat Munshi Ram.jpg image; if you took it, or if it was taken for your father (and then became yours upon his passing), then you can release it as indicated - and then it's not copyrighted. I'll see how we can confirm this. The Manavta Mandir image is trickier - if it's on the organization's website, it can be presumed to be their copyrighted image, which we then use under Fair Use. I'll ask for help there, as well. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 12:17, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

File permission problem with File:Bhagat Munshi Ram.jpg

File Copyright problem

Thanks for uploading File:Bhagat Munshi Ram.jpg. I noticed that while you provided a valid copyright licensing tag, there is no proof that the creator of the file agreed to license it under the given license.

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If you believe the media meets the criteria at Wikipedia:Non-free content, use a tag such as {{non-free fair use in|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Wikipedia:Image copyright tags#Fair use, and add a rationale justifying the file's use on the article or articles where it is included. See Wikipedia:Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have provided evidence that their copyright owners have agreed to license their works under the tags you supplied, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following this link. Files lacking evidence of permission may be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Killiondude (talk) 17:49, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Manavta Mandir

The categories look OK to me - I'll tinker with them later today. I'll also clean the sources, so we can remove the cleanup tag. Looks to be a good start. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 13:13, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Replied

On my talk page. Killiondude (talk) 06:43, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Manavta Mandir Hoshiarpur.jpg

⚠

Thanks for uploading File:Manavta Mandir Hoshiarpur.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of "file" pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. ZooFari 06:13, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Possibly unfree File:Faqir Chand.jpg

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