Amasintay

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BKWSU

You are aware of the controversy on the BKWSU topic page.

May I ask;

• a) What consensus are you seeking for your edit?
• b) What is your actual experience within the BKWSU, is it personal or just purely academic? (Your use of Dada and preference for Brahma Baba suggests to me that you more than merely an undergraduate with an interest in the BKs but please tell us what aspect of the BKWSU you are studying).
• c) Specifically, what access have you had to Sakar and Avyakt Murlis? I am trying to put into context the framework of your understanding of the topic

Some of your first edits were to REMOVE depth and detail. You added unreferenced and in places erroneous padding (I am sorry, I cant think of a more tactful way of saying that but e.g. "It was frequent practice in the early to mid 20th century to adopt a new name when beginning a life of spiritual endeavour" and the stuff about Jains is actually just plain wrong). It looks like the topic is heading back toward BKWSU whitewash or obfuscation, e.g. "Regular" for "daily" mediation at 4. And can I ask is that the correct use of the <ref> tags?

I am sorry but, you see, your use of the <br> tag suggests that you are using the same material as Luis. Being aware of the BKWSU team effort and having gone through a fair amount of heavy weather with this topic, you will appreciate why I would ask.

I added a few more comments on the topic page for you tolook at.

Thank you. 195.82.106.244 02:34, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I responded by putting your queries in bold and my answers in regular type.

You are aware of the controversy on the BKWSU topic page.

Yes, I am.

May I ask;

...of course...

* a) What consensus are you seeking for your edit?

Not looking for consensus, because people are people and even experts differ on their understanding of given areas. I am seeking to help in constructing a neutral and well-informed article.

* b) What is your actual experience within the BKWSU, is it personal or just purely academic? (Your use of Dada and preference for Brahma Baba suggests to me that you more than merely an undergraduate with an interest in the BKs but please tell us what aspect of the BKWSU you are studying).

I'm doing a PhD on three separate groups of people to determine the role of spirituality in creating resilience/ reducing suffering for people during events of disaster. My exploration is more into the role of spirituality rather than any particular dogma. In fact, I am researching three very diverse groups (to be confirmed). Brahma Kumaris (as a disciplined NRM), NY Firefighters (often secular/ atheist) and a more traditional religious group in Sri Lanka (Buddhist or Muslim perhaps). I find the Brahma Kumaris a fascinating organisation, from an emic and etic perspective both and, as with most researchers, my academic interest comes from a personal one. Yet the use of 'Dada' comes from the text of Adi Dev and pre-fieldwork discussions with BK's. Also, my preference here is really for accuracy and not for a pro or anti site which is not very useful to anyone... there are enough of both There's a unique opportunity here to co-author a high quality article of precision... My primary interest is in helping with that, in any way I can.

* c) Specifically, what access have you had to Sakar and Avyakt Murlis? I am trying to put into context the framework of your understanding of the topic.

I have attended murli's and so am familiar with sakar and avyakt versions of them and also how they are distinct from each other. While the article mentioned 'murlis', which is a new word for most Wiki readers, I thought it needed some elaboration so readers can understand what murli's are. I also know the history of the BK's from BK's themselves as well as BK scholars.

Some of your first edits were to REMOVE depth and detail. You added unreferenced and in places erroneous padding (I am sorry, I cant think of a more tactful way of saying that but e.g. "It was frequent practice in the early to mid 20th century to adopt a new name when beginning a life of spiritual endeavour"

This is based on personal experience of growing up in the 1970's, people I know who have been to India and adopted a new name (not BK's although I know many of them have done similar), but you're right - I don't have an academic paper to support it so I will remove it. I'll check the 'notability' section again.

and the stuff about Jains is actually just plain wrong).

Actually, the information about Jain practise is right. Some comes from a great book by Dundas called "The Jains (Library of Religious Beliefs and Practices)" published by Routledge. The information is re-iterated on official Jain websites, one of them scholarly. I will post them up.

It looks like the topic is heading back toward BKWSU whitewash or obfuscation, e.g. "Regular" for "daily" mediation at 4.

Seriously not looking to whitewash. Honestly, I don't have time for that. You should see the ocean of paper and books I am living in! Regarding the 4:00 comments, "regular" may be less specific but it is in fact more accurate, as I have spoken to many that identify as BK's but don't necessarily get up every day at 4:00am. I even thought about changing the 4:00 to between 2:00 and 5:00 as it's more correct, according to their actual practice. What do you think?

And can I ask is that the correct use of the tags?

I don't really know about the tags. It was my first edit so bear with me while I learn the ropes - or tell me how to use them accurately.

I am sorry but, you see, your use of the <br> tag suggests that you are using the same material as Luis. Being aware of the BKWSU team effort and having gone through a fair amount of heavy weather with this topic, you will appreciate why I would ask.

Sure, I do understand - I had a peruse through the history and have seen that it got quite heavy on both sides. Also, it's true that I did cut and paste previous content into the new edit, but you'll have to explain the ref and br tags to me. I'm not clear on their use. How should they be used and does it matter if I use the same references as previous editors?

I added a few more comments on the topic page for you tolook at.

Thanks. Much appreciated. After this though, I may not be able to edit or respond for a while... my studies seem to be coming in second place a fair bit. I have a paper due mid-Jan.

Thank you.

You too. Amasintay 05:08, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi.

I tried to structure the discussion to help me follow it.

The Jain diet bit ... why I think it is misleading is that the Jain identifier is really far more about ahimsa rather than just mere adoption of the 'sattva guna' theory, e.g. vegetarian minus onion family. What identifies the Jains from general Hindus is that they extend the sattvic diet to exclude foods that would require killing entire plants, e.g. root crops. I am not sure if there is another esoteric reason for this exclusion, may be something on an energetic level (root down, fruit cereals up), but they extend ahmisa to involve harm to plants. As you know, certain Jain sects and practises take this to extremes in fasting.

As a side note, the BKWSU take on the sattvic diet aspect is fairly lax. Too much focus on thought or food is disregarded as another "bhakti" ... "food bhakti". As long as the basics, e.g. lacto-veg with no smelly stuff, are covered then that is fine.

In addition to this, you also diminished the issue of Shrimat stating specifically that BK Brahmins are meant to eat only food cooked by BK Brahmins, and offered to Shiva first. As you may know, this can be extended to allow foods cooked "mechanically" where there is liitle of no input of negative and impure vibration from non-BKs. There is no "similar path" business. This is within their definition of sattvic, for centerwasis it is even stricter. They would not, for example, eat sattvic food cooked by caste born Brahmins because they are considered Shudras. This I also picked up as misleading and it made me question, were you just another neo-BK in to hide the truth, or that you had not managed to get in far enough to get to the truth.

(Within BKWSU circles, the word Bhakti, worship or yoga via the heart, becomes a pejorative and demeaning. It is generally used as a sort of inhouse condemnation in the form, "oh, they are just doing bhatki, e.g. searching ... seeking ... but not knowing. As you will have picked up (depending on how edited out the Murlis have become) that there is a lot of dialectic stress places in the contrast of the BK path to all other paths, e.g. "this is knowledge, they are still searching ... you are studying Gyan, they are doing bhakti ... this Knowledge is the fruit of that searching ... you are pure, they are impure etc. One commentator, a very experienced and highly respected ex-BK noted that the use of bhagat, e.g. one that does bhakti, is pretty much the worse insult one could use within the BK framework taking on connotation on a par with "nigger". They themselves were non-white.)

As regards Amrit Vela you are, of course, correct from a Gyani point of view, however it has become very standardised to the '4 am - 6.30 am class' routinue. Just how and where this was instituted and made concrete I do not know. I think Mama had something to do with that side and Kripalani was more of the inspired mystic. I find this part of the evolution interesting. It seems to be that in the first place, OM Mandali, their lifestyle was fare more fluid, spiritual and inspirational. Social entropy seems to have set in and matters become fix, mechanical and concretised. It is certainly interesting to document the evolution, who, how and when these things came in because many of them do not appear in the credo.

Changing name. Well, as you know, it is a tradition that goes back 1,000 of years and so the 70s stuff bears no relationship ... especially as Kripalani did so in the 30s or 40s. It is more about you than them.

I have no problems with discussion this stuff in a detached and intelligently manner. I am very interested in documenting and discussion the organization publically, apparently more the organization actually has itself. I am completely at ease with the yogi, mediumistic elements. Obviously, the BKWSU are currently engaged in re-marketing themselves in new and secural manners. It appears some of the hardliners find the old stuff embarrassing and some of the Westerners have little grounding in Hinduistic elements. They seem to have a little problem at present at reconcilling the various parts of themself and accepting that they cannot have total control over what is in the public domain, particularly due to a) the high drop out rate without, b) the gossip mongers within. Honestly, as much as they like to run little spy rings they are as tight as a seive holds water.

What is going on inside Little Luis head, I have no idea. Well, I do actually and I think it has more to do with Latin American male pride than it does Brahmin principles. I caught him out using a separate secret and anonymous user to work up a case, block and ban me. I cannot square that at all with Brahmin Shrimat, principles or Gyan at all. Bapdada loves getting the message out there. He was always up for printing up leafelts and throwing them out of helicopters telling folks that the end was nigh and god was here. I tried pointing out to other BKs that what Luis was up to was terrible PR for the BKWSU, even worse than the most deliberate of antagonists could dream up. Far worse then just the impartial but complete exposé I am working towards. The cat is out the bag, the stable door off its hinges, a new era is looming for the BKWSU very close, up ahead.

So, if you have an in with the BKWSU, try and get the message through to someone sensible. Simon, although a class above Luis, has also lowered himself in my eyes I am afraid, by deny the co-ordination of activity against critical material on the wiki and more widely internet. its all very silly. I know them, who they are, what they are llike, what they do, how they get up to it. They have worked the media for a long time, especially in India. Same modus operandi. Some brothers to front up what they consider to be the trouble makers, meanwhile they send the white saris in the back to write letters and sweet talk the IPs and VIPs with toli and presents.

Suppression through dishonest means will always backfire. I think Luis missed out the lesson on Karma. 195.82.106.244 04:38, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, perhaps it is mis-leading to have noted the Jains specifically. Of course you are correct in saying that the Jains focus is ahimsa, which in fact includes water, air and fire born bodies, as well as plants and animals. My aim was only to elucidate as Jainism is known as a path that is strict with food... I thought this may help people get a grip on the understanding behind food practices in the BK. Perhaps I should remove the reference to Jain and just put something along the lines of 'other disciplined spiritual paths'. What do you think?

What you say about the BK shrimat with regard to food is true. Yet, from what I understand, Wiki is a internet reference that gives an overall picture as well as the nuts and bolts of the topic at hand. So, while there are details with the food, such as store bought or mechanically prepared etc., I didn't think the minutiae were appropriate for this wiki article, so just kept to the basic most widely understood and practiced systems.

It is always tricky with a) a spiritual or religious organisation and b) discussing with absolute clarity anything that involves people, as there are always exceptions and differences and variations. Still, I think as long as the article gives the basics of BK life and history, it's not necessary to go into too much detail that would only serve to confuse the reader. If we are to use Wiki as an educational tool we have to take care in this regard, I feel.

The changing name thing... Yes, it has been the system for thousands of years and, as such, continued in the life story of Dada Lakhraj who became known as Brahma Baba. It's certainly historically accurate. I think that's okay... do you?

I'm not sure why there is such bad blood between you and some of the other editors but, while much of what you say is good and you have some good points, it's undermined quite a bit by your antipathy towards the other editors and only serves to discredit you.

Anyway, I look forward to more exchanges.

All the best, Amasintay 01:25, 8 January 2007 (UTC)