Albo2005

Golf Club Management

A tag has been placed on Golf Club Management, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article seems to be blatant advertising that only promotes a company, product, group, service or person and would need to be fundamentally rewritten in order to become an encyclopedia article. Please read the general criteria for speedy deletion, particularly item 11, as well as the guidelines on spam.

If you can indicate why the subject of this article is not blatant advertising, you may contest the tagging. To do this, please add {{hangon}} on the top of Golf Club Management and leave a note on the article's talk page explaining your position. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would help make it encyclopedic, as well as adding any citations from reliable sources to ensure that the article will be verifiable. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 12:14, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Promotion

Concerning your article, please read the WP policies on conflict of interest, Usernames and advertising and promotion on wikipedia and consider how to make the article consistent with the 5 pillars of wikipedia. Regards, TrulyBlue (talk) 12:25, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

There are Two issues with your article at Golf Club Management. First, is the magazine notable? From the notability guidelines, "An organization is generally considered notable if it has been the subject of coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources." So, does this magazine receive such coverage? Is it of high or pervasive circulation, either in general or within a particular segment of the population? You'll need sources to document this. That's the second item, actually; all articles must have reliable sources, independent of the subject, that document what is said in the article. If this magazine has high circulation, and has been noted as such in independent publications (even industry magazines, such as ones that discuss the publishing industry), then this might be acceptable as a subject. The article in its current form, though, will likely be deleted. If this is the case, I'd advise you to rewrite the article in your userspace before you repost it. TrulyBlue is correct to note our policy on conflict of interest, as it is frequently impossible for individuals working for or associated with a subject to write a neutral article on it. Please bear that in mind as you proceed, and feel free to ping my talk page if you have any questions. Best, UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 12:56, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello - the magazine has been going for 73 years, it is the official journal of the Golf Club Managers' Association (which is 75 years old and is one of the most important organisations in golf administration (it even runs its own degree course, and has had the likes of Bernard Darwin and Sir Michael Bonallack as presidents - www.gcma.org.uk) and has the likes of Peter Dawson, chief executive of The R&A, as a regular columnist. It has a circulation of 5.000.

In terms of secondary sources, it is mentioned on several golf clubs' websites, (ie see the profile of Megan Bibby here http://www.westhovegolfclub.info/management.htm). It has also been mentioned in many newspapers and other golf publications over the last 73 years, although it is hard to find internet links for this as it was particularly prominent in the national press in the 1950s and 1960s (when it was called Club & Club House) and the golf publications tend to have incomplete websites.

What other proof would you like? I could email something if it helps.

Alistair Golf Club Management (talk) 13:17, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

The longevity is a good claim of notability, and adding references to older iterations of the magazine - such as Club & Club House - would be a good way to cement that. Have a look at Category:Golf magazines for some examples of good (and iffy) articles on similar topics. Even a stub would be acceptable to me, I think, so long as it 1) Claims notability, 2) documents that notability, and 3) has a source or two. Old, offline sources are OK, but be precise in citing them - Publication, Article Title, Author, date, Edition (volume & issue) should be sufficient. You might also find some industry websites that mention golf magazines; As such websites are independent of the magazine, I imagine they would meet the requirements of reliable, independent sourcing. Finally, before posting the article again, you might wish to create it in your userspace. You can click here to get started: User:Golf Club Management/Draft Article. Create the page there and ping me when you have your sources in place, and I'll help copyedit. As I said, I'm looking at some of our other articles, and I think we can put something together here that will work. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 14:03, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

You know, we don't have an article on the GCMA, either; if there are sources that show that that association is notable in some fashion, you might consider an article that documents the organization and, as part of that, describes the magazine. Just a thought. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 14:06, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks very much for this, it is much appreciated. For sources I have the following:

This is the history of the GCMA, which mentions the magazine: http://www.gcma.org.uk/history.htm

And here are two examples of those in the industry talking about the magazine on the net:

http://www.thegolfscene.co.uk/nonpro/news_3.php

http://www.amateur-golf.com/news/yeartodate/news2001/sguhandicap.html

Edit: I also have a picture of the front cover of the magazine from 1946, if that would help.

I've written something up in the draft article - could you let me know if it's suitable or what needs to be done to improve it?

Also, regarding the GCMA, I sent an email to the current CEO this morning and am waiting for a reply (he's probably playing golf!) I suspect he'll be very keen for Wikipedia to feature the organisation, but it will take a lot of work - the association has an annual handbook, which, alone, is 128 pages, so it will not be a swift task condensing that down into an easily read page on the internet!

Alistair Golf Club Management (talk) 14:34, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Username

Under most circumstances, your use of this account to create an article about a subject with the same as the account would lead to one of us administrators blocking it indefinitely per our standard interpretation of our username policy, as it's promotional. However, based on the conversation above, I can see that you are trying to contribute an article about a notable subject. (but do read our conflict of interest policy, as well)

So, I would really like for you to, sometime within the next 24 hours, open a new account under an acceptable username (it can't be a permutation of this one, either). Let me know when you have. Daniel Case (talk) 14:35, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello, sorry I didnt realise that. I have created a new account with the username Albo2005

Alistair Golf Club Management (talk) 14:40, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Might not be a bad idea to move the draft article to that account instead. Thank you for addressing that concern. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 14:43, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

OK - how do i move it to this new account? Do I have to set up a new draft article, and if so how?

Alistair Albo2005 (talk) 14:53, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I've already moved it; the new address is User:Albo2005/Draft Article, and the old one redirects automatically. No problem. When the article is ready, we'll do the same thing to move it to the articlespace. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 14:56, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

thank you very much indeed. Is there anything else you need me to do to make the article ready? If not, do you know when it will go live on Wikipedia?

Alistair Albo2005 (talk) 15:04, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm working on it, and have added some material. As we discussed, I think there's more to say about the organization than about the magazine itself, though the magazine should certainly be a part of it. I've also added some references from this page. Please have a look, if you could. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 15:15, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I think what you've done is absolutely brilliant. If you need a citation for when the Association began life, it's here: http://www.gcma.org.uk/history.htm . If you need more information I can tell you. It's current chief executive is Keith Lloyd, former secretary of Cardiff Golf Club, and he has been CEO since 2002. The GCMA also has very close links with the golf unions of England, Scotland, Wales, Finland and Sweden, the Professional Golfers Association and The R&A.

It has also run a 'Secretary of the Year' competition since 2004, which rewards an outstanding golf club manager or secretary with a holiday to Australia. In 2007 it was won, for the first time, by a woman, Megan Bibby, which received a lot of coverage in the golf press and Megan's local press ( http://archive.theargus.co.uk/2007/12/28/248147.html - see April )

Alistair Albo2005 (talk) 15:28, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Couple of other points: it's Golf CLUB Management, not Golf Course Management. It changed its name from 'Course and Club House' to 'Golf Management' in autumn 1967 (it was still quarterly then), and then to Golf Club Management in April/May 1975 (it went bi monthly at the start of 1969). It went monthly in January 1988.

Albo2005 (talk) 15:35, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

(ec) I've added some additional material, and have tagged some of the facts in the article with , which is where I will add references you provide. For the moment, I'd like to leave individual names out of the article, except where they already have Wikipedia articles; if the concern was that the article was promotional, then listing the association's officers might seem that way too. However, adding an external link to document those individuals is fine, so we'd still have the information at hand. I'll see what else I can find about secretary of the year, as that might be a program worth noting, particularly with press coverage of the 2007 winner. Since we've refactored the article to focus on the GCMA in general, I might recommend uploading a copy of your logo for use in the article. Though, obviously, the logo is copyrighted, it is permissable to use it under a claim of Fair Use.

As I said, I'm happy to help; it looks like this organization is a notable one, and if we can expand the encyclopedia by posting a (Neutral!) article about it, then I think we should. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 15:37, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

thank you

on the draft article it should say that the association was formed in 1933, not 1934, and that the magazine is Golf Club Management, not Golf Course Management.

With regards evidence that the magazine started in 1935, this comes in the 'March 1958' issue of the magazine, which reprints an article written in the "first ever issue" by Bernard Darwin, who has just resigned as President, from 'June 1935'. The article is also reprinted in the August 2008 issue of the magazine, which celebrates the GCMA's 75th birthday.

How do I upload the logo?

Albo2005 (talk) 15:47, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I should also point out that the GCMA's headquarters (in Weston-super-Mare) only have archive copies of the magazine that go back to 1946 - hence that's why i dont have any copies of the magazine from the 1930s.

Albo2005 (talk) 15:49, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

That's fine. I'll cite the original date and Mr. Darwin's involvement to Alistair Dunsmuir, ed. (August 2008). "Golf Club Management". Golf Club Managers' Association. {{cite journal}}: |author= has generic name (help); Cite journal requires |journal= (help), adding the volume and issue numbers - and a page number if you have it. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 15:53, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

As for the image, you can go here. Most of the information is already filled in; anything you don't have handy, I can tweak to fit. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 15:55, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello, when I click on the image link, it says 'permission error'. Excluding the logo, I think that's everything that i have for now. Thanks v much for doing this by the way! Albo2005 (talk) 16:03, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Hey, my pleasure. Let me see here, I notice a logo on your website at http://www.gcma.org.uk/index.htm; would that work? UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 16:06, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I forgot, you're a new account; normally you have to have an account established for a set amount of time before you can upload. My bad. If that logo works, above, I'll take care of it. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 16:07, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

no probs! yes, that's exactly the right logo. If it's too small I have a larger version on my computer, which i could send to a convenient location. Albo2005 (talk) 16:12, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

It will be thumbnailed in the infobox anyway, so that version (at 500px) should be perfect. Since a fair use image cannot be used anywhere other than an article (being copyrighted), I think this is ready. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 16:15, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

thank you very much for all this. One final thing is that the link that mentions the article by Bernard Darwin is not in the history of the GCMA (no. 3). For the source it would probably be best to say Alistair Dunsmuir, ed. (August 2008). "Golf Club Management". Golf Club Managers' Association. {{cite journal}}: |author= has generic name (help); Cite journal requires |journal= (help) with volume 16, number 2, page 1. PS When will it go live?

thanks Albo2005 (talk) 09:40, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I've updated the reference. As for the article going live - Surprise!. I moved it yesterday when we had the logo in place, so Wikipedia's article on the Golf Club Managers' Association is now this article. I also updated the article at GCMA to link to this article; as there is another organization that uses those initials (though a historical one), GCMA becomes a disambiguation page to differentiate between the two organizations. As you'll see at the article, I also added some categories which will help readers find this article when looking at related articles or subjects. So we should be in good shape. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 12:12, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

that's fantastic - thanks! viva Wikipedia!

PS I also edit another magazine. It's nothing like as prestigious as Golf Club Management, and it isnt the journal of an association. It has been running for 9 years however, and has a large readership. Is it worth doing a Wikipedia entry for it (I suspect it would be only one or two lines) or should I not bother?

Alistair Albo2005 (talk) 12:36, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Glad to be of service. The other magazine would be tricky; the only way we were able to get this one mentioned was to expand to the organization itself, and it sounds like that wouldn't be an option for your other publication. Is the magazine mentioned anywhere? Maybe a website profile or a mention in other media? UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 12:38, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

this is its website: www.greenkeepingmagazine.com

it's been mentioned here: http://www.cricketworld.com/groundsmanship/article/?aid=14511 (fourth paragraph), here: http://www.golfbusinessnews.com/news/news.asp?storyid=3490 (at the end of the unsung heroes paragraph) and here: www.pitchcare.com/magazine/article/3560

But all that can be said about it is that it's read by 9,000 greenkeepers in the UK and Ireland. It started quarterly in 1999 and was relaunched as bi-monthly in 2007 and provides independent advice on greenkeeping techniques. It's only had two editors in its time and I'm one of them. It's your call to include it or not. Cheers

Alistair Dunsmuir Albo2005 (talk) 12:51, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Notability might be a bit too thin on this one, unfortunately. Let me poke around a little and see what Google comes up with. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 14:33, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Golf Club Managers' Association

I have moved the article to the mainspace. I think the logo looks OK, but I might fiddle a little with the settings to get it to look right. If you have a link to a higher resolution version, that might be helpful. Beyond that, I'd like to add the volume, issue, and page numbers for your August 2008 issue, so we can cite the first issue of the magazine. Also, do you have any press releases or news articles about the partnership with BIGGA, or on similar programmes? We can add those as well. Other than that, it looks good, and thank you for providing the information you did, as this would have been impossible otherwise. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 16:26, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

DYK

On 16 June, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Golf Club Managers' Association, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Congrats! --Gatoclass (talk) 07:07, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Just as an FYI, Did You Know? Items are displayed on the main page for 6 hours, alongside featured content and other new articles. I put this article onto the list, but didn't know if it would be displayed. Surprise, it was! Congrats, UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 12:18, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

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