Template talk:Infobox person/Archive 38

Archive 35

Archive 36

Archive 37

Archive 38

“Pronoun” parameter

It is 2023, and it is necessary to provide this in the infobox of those who wish to identify. Why? Today, for example, I got confused when an article referred to the subject as “They,” I reread previous lines and thought it was referring to 2 people only to find out on their Twitter that they use “They/Them” pronouns.

Regardless of your political affiliation or level of sensitivity towards gender, it’s necessary to put a subjects preferred pronouns in the Person Infobox so this won’t happen again. StreetKnockerzEnt (talk) 22:22, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

@StreetKnockerzEnt, See the following previous discussions:

1. Template talk:Infobox person/Archive 36#RfC: Adding a "pronouns" parameter
2. Template talk:Infobox person/Archive 37#Request to add Pronoun parameters under Personal Information section
3. Template talk:Infobox person/Archive 37#Perfered Pronouns

— Archer1234 (t·c) 01:42, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

• The problem is that this parameter invites overspecifying, where editors will supply preferred pronouns even when the subject's gender identity (or non-identity as it may be) is not really a notable part of their life. If the article prose is confusing, then the infobox is not where it needs to be addressed, it should be clarified in prose. It can be as simple as the completely fictional example: "Jamie Bufford (they/them^[1]) is a nuclear physicist at CERN^[2] who headed the imaging program for the Large Hadron Collider^[3][4]. They completed their doctorate in 2014 at the University of Chicago with a thesis on the detection of high-energy cosmic rays^[5]." Or if their gender identity is a significant part of their notability, it probably belongs as a full sentence in the lede along the lines of the fictional: "Jay Charlston (born Jacob Charlston) is an actor and trans activist who rose to fame starring as Ensign Ricky in all five seasons of Star Trek: The Best of All Worlds^[1]. They have used they/them pronouns since coming out as non-binary in 2011^[2]." VanIsaac, GHTV ^cont_WpWS 02:51, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

  A number of parameters "invite overspecifying" (where the actual answer is unknown), including exact date or place of birth or death. One remains free to NOT specify in those cases, or to answer "unknown" if the field MUST be filled in (but what fields truly MUST be filled in)? – .Raven  ^.talk 02:06, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

  Is there editorial guidance about over-specifying in general? It seems like it happens a lot (as Raven points out). Maybe there's on guidance? Or there is, and it's just not enforced or understood? -- Mikeblas (talk) 01:05, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

  I don't know about broader policy off the top of my head, but good infobox documentation typically discusses when it's best to use/not use a parameter. Of course, many well-meaning editors don't read the infobox documentation... DonIago (talk) 16:40, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Template:Age

A discussion at Template talk:Age#Inaccurate age shown proposes a change to the way {{age}} behaves. Currently, it always shows a single number of years as a person's age. The proposal is to make |range=dash the default. The following shows an example where a person's birth date is known, but only the year of their death.

• {{age|May 1, 1840|1925}} → 84–85 (current behavior)
• {{age|May 1, 1840|1925|range=dash}} → 84–85 (proposed new behavior; "|range=dash" will not need to be entered)

If this change occurs, it will still be possible to use |range=no to show a single number for the date if needed, like this:

• {{age|May 1, 1840|1925|range=no}} → 85

Please reply here or at template talk if this might cause a problem for infoboxes. Johnuniq (talk) 02:28, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any infobox problem with that. There may be editors who would have a stylistic problem with that (I'm not one), so perhaps it would help to drop a note at WT:MOSINFOBOX and WT:MOSBIO? – .Raven  .talk 03:27, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Good idea, I have done that. Johnuniq (talk) 03:54, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Eminently sensible. I was going to propose this myself (after encountering a case where a "certain" age was presented when no certainty was possible), but I forgot to.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:05, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Request to add 'Salary' parameter

Could we add a Salary parameter to the template? In some instances, a person's salary is encyclopedic information Jack4576 (talk) 01:59, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

This parameter previously existed and was removed per this discussion. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:04, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Hmm. I was not aware.

This is a very unfortunate consensus decision by a small number of editors.

Removing 'salary' on the grounds that it might be offensive to some seems to be counter to WP:NOTCENSORED.

Would support adding it back. Jack4576 (talk) 03:00, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

It was removed more on the grounds of WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE and the near impossibility of keeping the information accurate and updated across zillions of bios. Feel free to open a WP:RFC about restoring it, but I can virtually guarantee you that the outcome will be "no".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:07, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Request to add 'Net worth' parameter

Could we add a Net worth parameter to the template? In some instances, a person's net worth is encyclopedic information Jack4576 (talk) 01:59, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

This parameter previously existed and was removed per this discussion. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:04, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Hmm. Was not aware, thank you. A regrettable discussion, and on my read, I don't agree with the closer's assessment of consensus, which appeared to come down to a simple numerical vote.

Would be good to have it added again, but a more thorough discussion may be required.

Its pretty baffling to me that Wikipedia has removed such a fundamental piece of information from the infoboxes of public figures. A very disappointing and regrettable outcome. Jack4576 (talk) 03:03, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Courtesy ping to the closer in question. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:05, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Looks like a good close of the discussion. Keeping a parameter requires good arguments and a solid majority. Removing a parameter is an easier decision, because the article body can carry the information. If the question came up again, I would oppose adding it. Binksternet (talk) 04:24, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

I disagree, looks more like no consensus to me.

I'm not persuaded otherwise by the presence of a numerical majority.

Why would you oppose adding it if it came up again ?

Jack4576 (talk) 04:28, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

I am against adding this. It is relatively uncommon to find RS on the net worth of public figures. The number is often arbitrary. Aquabluetesla (talk) 15:03, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

That may be the case, however, the parameter can be best used where the number can be identified. It may also be possible to express the figure as a range.

These sorts of difficulties in obtaining information isn't unique to net worth; yet net worth is one of the main things want to find out when searching for information on certain public figures. Jack4576 (talk) 15:06, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Citation needed for the last part of what you said. That said, I could maybe see it being an optional parameter to be used only when their Net worth was directly related to why they were considered a notable figure. But at best I'd characterize that as a weak support, in part because this may be information that's better characterized in prose, particularly given that net worth is a dynamic figure and $2M in 1975 isn't $2M in 2023. DonIago (talk) 01:28, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

I think its a fairly defensible claim, even without citation, common sense, etcetera etcetera. Perhaps that argument may not sway you, but that is okay Jack4576 (talk) 12:22, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Really? Because it's not one of the main things I ever wanted to find out when searching for information on any public figure who I wasn't looking up specifically for reasons related to their net worth. DonIago (talk) 03:15, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm curious as to the net worth of many influential political figures, prominent business people, oligarchs, and members of royalty.

When I navigate to such people's pages (such as when I looked up Gina Rinehart the other day), my reason for doing so isn't usually specifically to look up their net worth. Nevertheless, I would've been interested to see that figure in the infobox. Just as I was curious as to where they attended school, etcetera

Its an interesting piece of contextual information, especially for the bios of powerful people. I'm surprised your response to this is 'Really?'. It seems to me quite intuitive and normal. I'm sure there are many ip users that feel the same; but that's only a hunch. Jack4576 (talk) 06:11, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

My point is that you claimed "net worth is one of the main things want to find out when searching for information on certain public figures." I don't think that's necessarily true, but also I think making it an infobox field would be problematic for the reasons I've already outlined above, which you haven't addressed. DonIago (talk) 19:29, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

I think the "on certain public figures" might refer to people either notable for being very very wealthy, or people for whom their level of wealth has recently been brought up in public (or even private) discussion — people do come here to settle their own curiosity, or even debates.

Cf. unresolved "Request to add 'Salary' parameter" above. Recently, watching news about a SCOTUS justice's accepting gifts from a wealthy person who had business before the Court, my wife burst out, "Why don't they just pay justices more?!" I told her SCOTUS justices are among the highest-paid Constitutional officers. She didn't believe me, so I looked it up to show her — here, not on Wikipedia. (They earn more than Senators, Representatives, or the Vice President.) – .Raven  .talk 21:02, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

I do think its true, and I'm surprised you don't think so as to me it seems obvious. Seems we're at an impasse.

Re: "making it an infobox field would be problematic for the reasons I've already outlined above", I don't agree with your reasons. The fact that the figure is dynamic isn't unique to net worth, wealth isn't necessarily all that dynamic, it depends on the person. In any event, a date qualifier like (2023) could resolve that sort of issue. Plus, for especially prominent figures, there are often Wikipedians that are happy to frequently update the figure, as experience has shown

I just don't think your concerns you've raised present all that much of a unique or substantial hurdle in the context of Wikipedia's features more generally; and where it does present a serious issue, the field could be removed as its ultimately optional. It would be a shame if exceptional problems would remove a source of information more generally.

Additionally, I fully agree with what .Raven has said above Jack4576 (talk) 09:56, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Some people treat infoboxes as a form. In a way, this is true: but the perception as a form can be of one where every field needs to be filled in where possible. So the mere presence of a parameter for net worth could mean that an editor feels obliged to supply a figure, no matter how unreliably sourced. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 05:39, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

That seems more to be a case of (a) new-user education, and (b) template documentation. – .Raven  .talk 06:42, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

|known_for= could be used for cases directly related to why they were considered a notable figure.  — Archer1234 (t·c) 13:22, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Possibly. I'd want a broader consensus on that. DonIago (talk) 03:16, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

"Relatively uncommon" may well be true, but for an optional parm is not entirely relevant. Even if the only bios it's ever used on are "the ten righest people in the world"... for those 10 infoboxes, a net worth parm would be helpful. – .Raven  .talk 06:41, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

I feel like the "known for" parameter would handle that sort of situation just fine. I would be much more comfortable with those people having something like known_for = $53.6 billion net worth (5th richest in world)<ref>...</ref> than a "net worth" parameter that would elicit badly sourced information being added to inappropriate articles by editors who don't understand that parameters aren't prescriptive. VanIsaac, GHTV ^cont_WpWS 06:15, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Oh dear. You want only parms that can't be misunderstood? Good luck. Perhaps a good approach might be working on the infobox template documentation to clarify that this swath of parms over here is optional, while those over there are mandatory (which comes down to... article subject name/title?) – .Raven  .talk 06:39, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

This horse was beaten to a pulp in that RfC. By no metric can anyone say that there is consensus for such a silly parameter. ~ HAL333 02:00, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm opposed, all I can see with this is a "Can of worms". - FlightTime (open channel) 02:04, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

I think it detracts from this debate to call the parameter 'silly'. There were plenty of well-respected editors in the last debate that saw good reason for its inclusion. You may not be swayed by their opinions; but they are at least, defensible ones. Jack4576 (talk) 12:24, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Let's avoid adding back junk parameters to the box. Moxy- 01:07, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Describing this parameter as 'junk' is not helpful. Well-respected editors are not of your view. Jack4576 (talk) 02:29, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

And they are free to expound on why they don't consider it junk. But word policing isn't remotely helpful here.

And although the current discussion, which I don't really have a strong opinion of either way, seems to be moving towards rejection of reinstating this parameter, I did want to mention that in my AWB cleanup of the net_worth parameter last year, I retained a log of all of the deleted parameters and their pages. VanIsaac, GHTV ^cont_WpWS 03:32, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Describing something as unhelpful is not to condemn it as improper, nor is it policing. Jack4576 (talk) 06:05, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

It assuredly doesn't need to be used in every bio — as many parms don't — but for the sake of where that info is (and should be) included, having that optional parm in the infobox could be helpful. Unless we want to have one fill-in-the-blank-label parm that can be used for all parms not otherwise provided... which would mean editors must manually get the particular formats right.... – .Raven  .talk 05:14, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

• I would be happy to support its inclusion since it adds value to those wealthy indivdual's bio and can easily be sourced to Forbes, the decision to remove it was rather shortsighted.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 18:04, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
• Same comment as in the thread above: It was removed more on the grounds of WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE and the near impossibility of keeping the information accurate and updated across zillions of bios. Feel free to open a WP:RFC about restoring it, but I can virtually guarantee you that the outcome will be "no".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:07, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

NYC, the center of the universe?

The documentation for the birth place states "Omit unnecessary or redundant details. For example, it is not necessary to state: New York City, New York, United States when New York City, U.S. conveys essentially the same information more concisely." However, that makes things inconsistent when people have the temerity to either be born somewhere else and die in the Big Apple or vice versa. This came up in Ivan R. Gates, born in Rockford, Minnesota, died in NYC. Why have the state in one field but not in the other? The first six deceased individuals in List of people from New York City are evenly split, while the List of people from Los Angeles, List of people from Chicago and List of people from Boston (from the samples I examined) all seem to have the state included. Is New York City really above other major American metropolises? Clarityfiend (talk) 01:10, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Chicago, LA, Boston, Toronto, Vancouver, London, Moscow, Paris, Tokyo, New Delhi, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Beijing, Ho Chi Minh City, Cairo, Nairobi, Stockholm, Copenhagen, Amsterdam, Vienna, Berlin, Rome, Athens, Baghdad, Johannesburg, Rio de Janiero, Buenos Aires... etc. There are lots of cities in the US and around the world where it is probably pretty redundant for the infobox to include anything more than the city name. The litmus is somewhere around whether an average adult from the English-speaking world would almost certainly know the city name on sight. They may not know exactly where it is, but they would certainly recognize it as a major world city in any case. After all, calling it Boston, Massachusetts is as meaningful for someone in India as calling it Mumbai, Maharashtra to an American. Since the infobox is supposed to give you only the most important and salient details, it's only when people legitimately need that kind of clarification that it's appropriate to include things like state and country. VanIsaac, GHTV ^cont_WpWS 02:13, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

You're not getting my objection. Why would you have the state in one field and not the other? It just doesn't look right. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:37, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

And who gets to decide whether a city is famous enough? Clarityfiend (talk) 09:39, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

To answer the questions, "Why have the state in one field but not in the other? " and "Is New York City really above other major American metropolises?" Because NY is the only name for a metropolis and its state; "New York, New York" is just silly in the eyes and ears of the rest of the world. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:52, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Beware pleonasm. Brevity is the sole of wit. Sometimes I think politicians should be taxed by the word. O3000, Ret. (talk) 14:21, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Soul. Clarityfiend (talk) 10:59, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Trimming fluff from infoboxes has become something of an obsession for me of late. "New York City, U.S." or even better, "New York City, US" is quite sufficient. Per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE, "The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance." Edwardx (talk) 14:47, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

@Vanisaac: @Michael Bednarek: @Objective3000: @Nikkimaria: Everyone seems to have ignored this rule for every other American city I've randomly sampled: Los Angeles, Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Dallas, etc. Only New York City gets a pass, and even that less than half the time. Of the eight people I checked from List of people from New York City, three had no state and five did, including Vincent Alo, who was born in ... wait for it ... Harlem, Manhattan, New York City, New York, U.S. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:11, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Eight is a very small sample. Have fixed Alo. Even if one started removing California, Massachusetts, etc from those city names in the infobox field(s), I think that other people would soon re-add them. So, short of a clear policy diktat, it would likely be a waste of time. Edwardx (talk) 23:52, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

That's the point. The vast majority of Americans will put in/expect a state. So why is New York City the only exception? Not Los Angeles, not Washington, not New Orleans, etc. Also, the sample size is larger than eight. Remember I also checked various other cities (about six entries each), all with states, plus my long experience browsing through bios. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:05, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

See below. Also multiple "Los Angeles"es and "Washington"s. – .Raven  ^.talk 02:47, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Note, there is a Chicago, Zimbabwe; a Vancouver, Washington; a London, Ontario; a Moscow, Idaho; a Paris, Texas, and a Paris, Ontario; several Baghdads; and numerous Amsterdams, Athenses, Berlins, Bostons, Cairos, Copenhagens, Romes, Stockholms, Torontos, and Viennas. There are also multiple "New York"s, just not multiple places named "New York City". – .Raven  ^.talk 02:39, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

It's about conveying information concisely. These examples you listed are perfectly clear when the main city is meant. New York is just the most obvious example. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:50, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

> "... when the main city is meant." Are we to be mind-readers? If editors see that non-unique placenames omit the specific larger area (e.g. state), then why not for the smaller as well as larger referents?

"New York" (without the "City") is a "most obvious example" of ambiguity – it may then refer either to the city or to the state, or to any of nine other locations: one in Ukraine, three in the UK, five in the USA. – .Raven  ^.talk 09:09, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

I made a mistake. I meant to write 'New York City', which for all intents and purposes is unambiguous. Use of 'Paris, France' is justly ridiculed. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:03, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

1) As I indicated above, a day earlier: "just not multiple places named 'New York City'."

2) I remember fondly a cherished old lady who used to boast (in jest) that she had been "born in Paris"... always soon thereafter to admit it was the one in Missouri.

3) If in such cases we omit "France" after the name of the Paris there, don't be surprised or upset if others likewise omit the "Arkansas", "Idaho", "Illinois", "Indiana", "Iowa", "Kentucky", "Maine", "Michigan", etc. – .Raven  ^.talk 02:08, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

You may be interested to read WP:OHTHATPARIS. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 19:41, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Those nine other locations have no claim whatsoever to being primary. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 17:59, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Nor with any of the other city-names. The point was not primaryhood, but ambiguity – as indicated by the need for disambiguation pages.

There's an anecdote that for a while some Japanese-made goods were stamped "MADE IN USA", which was utterly honest — they were made in Usa, Japan. How could customers have known that the "main" or "primary" referent for that name was NOT intended? – .Raven  ^.talk 22:45, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

I just noticed the guideline in the infobox documentation re: New York City and fully concur with User:Clarityfiend on this one. Whomever wrote that guideline is imposing a point of view unfamiliar to the vast majority of English speakers in violation of WP:NPOV (and WP:NOR (no original research) and WP:NOT (WP is not a soapbox)). North American English speakers are strongly conditioned to expect "city, state" (or province) when reading a profile (for example, an infobox in a traditional textbook) and would read "New York City, U.S." as wrong because the traditional usage is "New York, New York". Here is the relevant comparison on Google Ngram Viewer (scanning the entire English published corpus irrespective of dialect). New York, New York has always been very common while New York City, U.S. has always been very, very tiny in the published corpus. This infobox should not impose an arbitrary usage which violates strongly established usage in formal written English. --Coolcaesar (talk) 05:56, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

> "New York, New York has always been very common...."

The 1977 song, film, and musical play of that title might have something to do with it.

But as a Wikipedia infobox entry, since we usually wikilink placenames there, saying "New York" twice just links us to a disambiguation page twice. Wikilinking the article names for both places gives us "New York City, New York (state)", unsightly unless we pipe at least the latter: ⟦New York (state)|New York⟧ → New York. Piping both names gives us your four-word result, using ten words of source text. I'm sure many editors feel it's safe to shorten it to just the unpiped New York City because (a) it's a unique placename as is, even in plain text; (b) the linked article details where the place is.

Addressing an envelope doesn't afford the advantage of wikilinking. – .Raven  .talk 14:52, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

But your analysis is focusing solely on what's the simplest thing for WP editors to write with the least keystrokes/characters, not what's the easiest way to communicate a location in an infobox without making readers think "that looks weird." As an old boss used to tell me all the time years ago, "It doesn't matter what you think, it matters what they think!" Good writers composing formal written English always prioritize clarity for their readers, not the amount of work it requires of themselves. Also, for the benefit of foreign readers and younger readers not fully conversant in the complexities of New York geography, linking to both the city and the state helps readers distinguish between the two. --Coolcaesar (talk) 05:48, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

> "your analysis is focusing solely on what's the simplest thing for WP editors to write with the least keystrokes/characters"

If that were the case, I would have stopped at "four-word result, using ten words of source text", and not gone on to say: "I'm sure many editors feel it's safe to shorten it to just the unpiped New York City because (a) it's a unique placename as is, even in plain text; (b) the linked article details where the place is." – .Raven  .talk 06:52, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

No, you're still not responding to the key point: the first thought of most native American English speakers, upon seeing a city with no state in an infobox (in a textbook, magazine, etc.), is going to be "that looks weird." Linking and pipelining isn't sufficient, because that requires too much work from the reader. Any time a writer throws their reader off track with an unconventional usage, they have already failed to clearly communicate. (As an attorney, I get paid to communicate complex legal concepts very clearly.) In computer science terms, you've already failed if you force readers to divert from regular parsing into exception handling. This is formal English, not creative English, which are completely different registers. (That critical distinction is pounded into freshmen in English reading and composition courses at top-tier research universities.) --Coolcaesar (talk) 02:33, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Heads up re future RFC on revision to Template:Infobox person/doc on 21 November 2016

I wanted to give everyone a heads up that when I get around to doing the necessary research, I plan to initiate an RFC later this year (October or November) on this revision to Template:Infobox person/doc on 21 November 2016 which added this language: "Per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE, it is preferred to omit unnecessary or redundant info. For example, it is not necessary to state: "New York City, New York, United States" when "New York City, U.S." carries exactly the same information for far fewer characters. Countries should generally not be linked per WP:OVERLINK." This text is the ancestor of the current text in the infobox documentation which states: "Omit unnecessary or redundant details. For example, it is not necessary to state: New York City, New York, United States when New York City, U.S. conveys essentially the same information more concisely."

The edit summary references a then-ongoing discussion at Talk:Donald Trump, which is archived here. The editors involved in that discussion at that time did not recognize that such a drastic change to this infobox's documentation should have been pushed through an RFC first (preferably, advertised on the village pump) to establish broad consensus. And now we have editors relying on this text in the documentation to put "New York City, U.S." in infoboxes (for people like J. Robert Oppenheimer who were born in or died in New York City) when the natural usage for most Americans would be "New York, New York, U.S."

To restate the relevant portion of the argument I expressed above in the discussion under the topic initiated by User:Clarityfiend: The first thought of most native American English speakers, upon seeing a U.S. city name followed by U.S. with no state in an infobox (in a textbook, magazine, etc.), is going to be, "that looks weird." Linking and pipelining isn't sufficient, because that requires too much work from the reader. Any time a writer throws their reader's parsing off track with an unconventional usage, they have already failed to clearly communicate.

Because the "city, state" usage is so strongly taken for granted in American English, I have never needed to research it. If anyone knows of a source that has already done the homework (as in compiling the prevailing styles prescribed in the various style guides), please feel free to post a link.

I intend to follow up on this at some point, because (1) I think it's preposterous to omit the state and (2) if there is yet another insidious movement afoot in American English style guides to borrow yet another bad idea from British English which I was unaware of, I should try to be aware of it. (By the latter, I'm referring to the Chicago Manual of Style's foolish decision to adopt the British English convention of dropping periods in abbreviations.) Coolcaesar (talk) 02:39, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Not aware of a source reviewing this aspect of various style guides, but from what I've seen in the style guides themselves the present recommendations appear common - eg AP Style or ASA. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:20, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

The shortening causes too much churn from drive-by editors who, not knowing the technicality, expand it. Per WP:PROPOSAL:

Most commonly, a new policy or guideline documents existing practices, rather than proposing a change to what experienced editors already choose to do.

It'd be one thing if it was already common practice, but it wasn't (and still isn't?), hence the back and forth. And why was a specific infobox singled out. Why not all geo names, in all tables? The scope was too narrowly solicited and discussed.—Bagumba (talk) 04:00, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

More on NYC

Understood the use of "New York City, U.S." in the case where New York City is the place of birth. Would it make sense as an exception to use the borough in NYC when it is known, like Brooklyn, New York, U.S., instead of the broader New York City? That specificity seems more useful for a reader glancing at info in the Infobox. Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 20:21, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Resting place is a softener

Jane Doe
Burial place	her backyard

We should change it to something like "grave site" per WP:EUPHEMISM. Connor Behan (talk) 06:13, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

This has been discussed many times; see archives. Have you tried |burial_place=? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:03, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Hmm. That doesn't seem to acount for people in columbaria, above-ground tombs, and other options that aren't "burial". Not sure what a more generic term would be that isn't the obnoxious "resting place" emphemism.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:34, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Edit request

The instructions under "Inline lists" state: Do not use <br /> markup to create fake lists, as in: Item one<br />item two<br />item three.

The example of an infobox for Bill Gates uses <br /> in the boards parameter. Please replace this with a suitable inline list template.

Thank you.--76.14.122.5 (talk) 02:30, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

 Done * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 03:28, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Adding "union republic" notion to the doc

Hello. I've made a small additional detail for birth/death places regarding union republics, like in the USSR. As the regions were first subordinate to the union republic, then the union itself, both of them have to be shown. Like Moscow, Russian, USSR or Baku, Azerbaijan SSR, USSR — Toghrul R (t) 07:24, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

I think you mean "Moscow, Russian SFSR, Soviet Union", since "Moscow, Russian, USSR" doesn't make sense in English (has a dangling adjective "Russian" with nothing to modify). That said, I think this change bears discussion. I can imagine both pro and con arguments for including this level of detail.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:31, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Simplifications for birth dates, death dates and age

Hi all. I have been noticing that it is rather slow and tedious to enter the birth dates, death dates, age, and on top of that, figure out which date formula to use ("1 March 2024" or "March 1, 2024"). Would it make sense to simply add these parameters?

• birth_m (for month)
• birth_d (for day)
• birth_y (for year)
• death_m (for month)
• death_d (for day)
• death_y (for year)
• date_formula = "dm", "md", "df", "mf" (whichever optional choices that make the most sense)

That may feel like a lengthy queue of data, but so is entering that same data to templates within this template. -- Puisque (talk) 13:54, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

If you had suggested this fifteen years ago, it may have been adopted. But with almost half a million transclusions at the present time, this really isn't going to happen. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:57, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

{{Death-date and age}} is much simpler to use than {{Death date and age}}. Maybe the documentation overleaf should mention that. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 23:45, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

{{death date and age}} supports easy syntax such as

• {{death date and age|24 Feb 1993|12 April 1921}} → February 24, 1993(1993-02-24) (aged 71)
• {{death date and age|Feb 24, 1993|Apr 12 1921}} → February 24, 1993(1993-02-24) (aged 71)
• {{death date and age|24 February 1993|April 12, 1921|df=y}} → 24 February 1993(1993-02-24) (aged 71)

Sorry but it looks like I never got around to update the template's documentation. Johnuniq (talk) 08:22, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

After you do, the WP:TEMPLATEFORK at {{death-date and age}} should be TfDed (or TfMed, if there's a feature to merge in).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:04, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Category:Pages using infobox person with education and alma mater parameters

Is it possible to create a tracking category for pages using infobox person with education and alma mater parameters? Khiikiat (talk) 14:06, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Criminal penalties

This is just a basic and obvious modification proposal. Under parameters there is "criminal_charges" plural and "criminal_penalty" singular. My suggestion is to change "Criminal penalty" to "Criminal penalties". Hopefully I shouldn't have to explain why this would be beneficial. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 22:20, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Education and alma mater parameters

Hey, there. I've been wondering about something: does the "education" and/or the "alma mater" parameters apply to universities (for example, the Stephen Hillenburg article has the "alma mater" parameter for his universities, while the Hugh Jackman article has the "education" parameter for his universities)? Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 01:59, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

I guess I'm not sure what you're asking? It seems to me that the infobox documentation sufficiently explains the difference between the two params? The short answer is that either can be used. DonIago (talk) 02:48, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

I see. According to this edit on the Tara Platt article by Therequiembellishere (talk · contribs), the editor's summary states "[the] alma mater [parameter] is deprecated". However, as indicated on Template:Infobox person#Parameters, the "alma mater" and the "education" parameters are included. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:43, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

I see no evidence that the alma mater parameter is deprecated. Short of hearing from Therequiem, I would feel free to revert any non-constructive edits made based on that claim. DonIago (talk) 07:04, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Here's what the documentation says:

|education=

Education, e.g., degree, institution and graduation year, if relevant. If very little information is available or relevant, the |alma_mater= parameter may be more appropriate.

|alma mater=

Alma mater. This parameter is a more concise alternative to (not addition to) |education=, and will often consist of the linked name of the last-attended institution of higher education (not secondary schools). It is usually not relevant to include either parameter for non-graduates, but article talk page consensus may conclude otherwise, as perhaps at Bill Gates.

Generally, this is how I apply this guidance:

1. Use |alm mater= when listing the last higher-education institution from which the person earned a degree/was graduated.
2. Use |education= when listing more than one higher-education institution or when including details like degree, year, field of study, and/or location of the institution
3. Do not use both |education= and |alma mater= in the same article.
4. Include only higher-education institutions; no primary, secondary, K-12, sixth form, etc. Only post-secondary institutions, which could include trade schools, acting schools, etc.

Notes

 — Archer (t·c) 03:54, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

I would use alma_mater for most actors and entertainers, and education where their profession is more academic in nature. In cases of both, if there's something notable and different like actor Ken Jeong having an MD, you can put that in education. Honorary degrees? Probably not for either. AngusW🐶🐶F (bark • sniff) 02:25, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

“Website” after “military career”

See the infobox for Neri Oxman. The placing of the website section makes it seem like the website is directly connected to the military service. This is particular so on mobile. Is there a good way to fix this? Thanks Brianga (talk) 03:37, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

• You could switch the order of the modules, so her scientific career details come after military. But I wonder if having a dividing line between modules wouldn't be a good idea anyway. VanIsaac, GHTV ^cont_WpWS 04:11, 6 January 2024 (UTC)