Template:Did you know nominations/Mary Francis Hill Coley

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 15:56, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Mary Francis Hill Coley edit

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~~... that midwife Mary Francis Hill Coley was the subject of the instructional film All My Babies, which has been used to educate midwives for 60 years?~~

Reviewed: The Boat Race 1985

Created by 97198 (talk). Self nominated at 14:46, 14 June 2014 (UTC).

Date, length, hook all OK. The hook is confirmed by two references, one online, the other offline and AGF. Article well referenced. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 10:32, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Since the original hook was pulled from the queue, I've undone the promotion. Here is an alt hook:

ALT1: ... that midwife Mary Francis Hill Coley delivered over 3,000 babies in her 30-year career? 97198 (talk) 01:21, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Time to re-review, please? Not sure why the original hook was pulled. No clue what issues to focus on. Thanks. --PFHLai (talk) 15:19, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

The rationale for pulling was given in Wikipedia talk:Did you know/Archive 105#And giving, and giving, and giving: Hook refs unsourced. Yoninah (talk) 20:55, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

This hook is fully sourced:

*ALT2: ... that African American midwife Mary Francis Hill Coley was chosen as the star of All My Babies, a 1952 instructional film for training midwives? Yoninah (talk) 21:30, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't like that hook because I don't find the words "chosen to star" to be an apt description of the situation, in part because it suggests (inaccurately) that she was essentially an actress playing a scripted role (although that impression is supported by the misleading wording in the article, which says "Coley shot four months' worth of footage in Albany"). Moreover, the fact that she was "chosen" to appear in the film is not nearly as important (nor interesting) as the fact that she was featured in the actual film. I also am concerned that the article is still very close, in its overall structure and wording, to the "Georgia Women of Achievement" biography. It shouldn't be awfully difficult to resolve these issues. For starters, here is an alternative hook that isn't currently in the article, but is supported by sources cited in the article:

ALT3: ... that Mary Francis Hill Coley, an African-American lay midwife in Georgia, was featured in a 1952 instructional film that was used in training midwives around the world? --Orlady (talk) 12:15, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

The following has been checked in this review by Maile

QPQ done by 97198
Article created by 97198 on June 14, 2014 and has 2,707 characters of readable prose
Article is NPOV, stable, no edit wars, no dispute tags, no outstanding talk page issues
Every paragraph sourced online
No bare URLs, and no external links used as inline sources
Duplication Detector check of online sourcing found no copyvio
Disambig links tool found no issues
External links tool found no issues
Original hook struck due to concerns raised on WT:DYK on June 17
ALT2 is sourced, but I have struck it due to Orlady's concerns above
ALT 1 is stated in the article and sourced
Alt 3 is stated in the article and sourced

Good go to with ALT1 or ALT3, but ALT3 is more hooky. — Maile (talk) 21:38, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Umm, where in the article did you find a statement that the film was used in training midwives around the world? The article says it was used "over the last 58 years" (without clearly indicating that the statement was made in 2011), but it doesn't say anything about the geographic scope of its use. (I found that fact in a source.) And did you not perceive close paraphrasing in passages like the following?

Source: Mary married carpenter Ashley Coley and the family moved to Albany in 1930. It was after this move that she became interested in midwifery and was trained by Alabama midwife Onnie Lee Logan in the apprentice tradition. For over 30 years Mary delivered more than 3,000 babies in Dougherty, Lee, Mitchell and Worth counties. - See more at: http://www.georgiawomen.org/2012/05/coley-mary-francis-hill-2/#sthash.UJ41tAud.dpuf

Article: She married Ashley Coley, a carpenter, in 1930 and moved with him to Albany, Georgia. In Albany she developed an interest in midwifery and began training under the tutelage of midwife Onnie Lee Logan. After completing her apprenticeship with Logan, Coley practiced as a midwife for more than three decades, working across the state of Georgia in the counties of Dougherty, Lee, Mitchell and Worth.

Granted, the article is not a verbatim copy of the source, but it seems to me that the overall structure and choice of words in the article are "too close" to this source. --Orlady (talk) 02:55, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

OK, perhaps this needs a second look. Surprise to me that you wrote ALT3 and are now questioning the wording (or...at least questioning that I said it is in the article). Just goes to show that sometimes every nomination benefits by a second (or so) look. — Maile (talk) 12:49, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Please note that I prefaced ALT3 with a statement that it "isn't currently in the article". That meant that it was a possible hook, but that someone would need to revise the article to make it acceptable. My comment also referred to the close paraphrasing issue (I also am concerned that the article is still very close, in its overall structure and wording, to the "Georgia Women of Achievement" biography). --Orlady (talk) 14:34, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Until the close paraphrasing issue is dealt with, this should not be left in an approved state. Can we please hear from nominator 97198 on when this can be addressed? (Note: as 97198 is out of town until July 12, it will be a few days until that happens.) Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:49, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

I did some cleanup and expansion of the article. I added content and sourcing to support the ALT3 hook. However, I haven't yet tackled the passages where I perceived close paraphrasing. --Orlady (talk) 03:03, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

ALT4: ... that Mary Francis Hill Coley, an African-American lay midwife in Georgia, was featured in a 1952 instructional film used in training midwives around the world?

EEng (talk) 02:10, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks all for your input, suggestions and improvements to the article, especially Yoninah and Orlady - it is now infinitely better than when I nominated it! Sorry for the delayed response, since I have been away for the last week, but I've now done my best to alter the wording identified above as close paraphrasing. 97198 (talk) 08:46, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

My concerns about close paraphrasing are resolved. Thanks! Someone else will need to do a final review -- I'm not eligible to do that because of my work on the article and drafting of hooks. --Orlady (talk) 14:35, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Checked to death (new enough way back when it was nominated, long enough, neutral, close paraphrasing dealt with, QPQ done, citations fine). ALTS 1, 3, and 4 are all supported. Go with ALT4, prep-builder (you hear me, don't go choosing ALT1 and upsetting everybody, they will only be grumbling behind your back, that will lead to whispering in corners, which in turn will lead to plotting and before you know it there will be polonium in your starter or a poison umbrella in your ankle. I'm not a conspirator, I'm just warning you, so you don't put yourself in harm's way.) Belle (talk) 15:14, 15 July 2014 (UTC)