- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 13:50, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
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Jessye Norman
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Jessye Norman in 2014
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that Jessye Norman (pictured), a soprano who made a career in opera and recital in Europe, first appeared on a U.S. stage at the Opera Company of Philadelphia, as Purcell's Dido and Stravinsky's Jocasta?Source: Norman was a superstar globally, but Philadelphia gave her an American stage debut.
- Comment: The article had many editors in a long history, - I don't know how to credit whom how.
Improved to Good Article status by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 17:23, 6 March 2020 (UTC).
| General: Article is new enough and long enough |
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| Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems |
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Hook eligibility:
- Cited:
- Interesting:
- I'm not convinced that this is interesting to an audience beyond classical music aficionados.
| Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px. |
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| QPQ: Done. |
Overall: 
I agree, it should be run during Black History Month if possible. buidhe 17:41, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for looking, Buidhe! Yes, I forgot to mention the qpq: Template:Did you know nominations/Nelson House & Rotherhithe Street, second article. I think even people who nothing about opera may have noticed that one of the most important sopranos ever died, and others may just want to find out who the pictured women is. Why not also mention something that may surprise even aficionados: that when her overdue U.S. debut finally came, it wasn't New York, but Philadelphia, and not Aida but these rather rare works. She made a statement for the less popular, - why not tell that? - We missed Black history, February. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:55, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
Seeking second opinion on the hook. I see your point but am not entirely convinced. buidhe 20:56, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- Fine. Just in case it's not clear: the first half is for everybody, saying politely that the greatest American soprano of her time had to go abroad first, likely because of skin colour. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:08, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- @Buidhe and Gerda Arendt: I would agree with Buidhe that the currently proposed hook is not interesting to a broad audience, only to classical music enthusiasts. The article is a Good Article and there is plenty of information about her life that could be highlighted, facts that may catch the interest of the general public. Taking a quick look at the article, a few suggestions come to mind:
- The part about an episode during her early life, where she placed third due to a memory slip. I'm not sure if it's suitable since the subject is recently deceased and may be considered negative, although the interview quoted seems to imply that she learned from it.
- The quote by Encyclopædia Britannica calling her "one of the most popular and highly regarded dramatic soprano singers in the world."
- Perhaps mentioning any of her noted performances, such as performing at Ronald Reagan's second inauguration or Elizabeth II's 60th birthday celebration. I think general readers would find these very appealing.
- Her singing the French national anthem during the 200th anniversary of the French Revolution, or that performance inspiring the writing of a poem.
- There's several other facts that could be used, but these are the ones that would likely appeal to a wide audience and give justice to an accomplished career, not a technical fact about appearing in a U.S. opera that only opera enthusiasts would appreciate. As for the skin color suggestion, I suppose that would work as hook too; however, it's not mentioned in any way in the currently proposed version. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 08:11, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for looking. Perhaps we'll have to make her featured article, sigh. DYK is just too little to do justice to a woman who won appreciation for the lesser performed works, both in opera and lieder. Sorry, for me, a little episode from youth won't do justice to her life achievements, the quote is too general, why promote Reagan or Elizabeth (her key things were opera and lied, not appearing for celebrities), and the Marsellaise was just a big show. Have you seen the video? - Thank you for reading the article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:19, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- Gerda, I understand you are very enthusiastic about opera and wish to highlight her operatic achievements, but remember that Wikipedia is written for a general audience, not only for classical music fans. A hook that mentions famous names is likely to gain attention from international readers, a hook that mentions a Philadelphia opera company that most Philadelphians have probably never even heard of is less likely to do so. This is not to say that a hook about her opera career can't be used, but rather it has to be written in a way that would even people who don't care about opera care about the hook. Having taken a look at the article, speaking as someone who's never heard of her before, I find these facts I brought up to be very interesting and in fact show how accomplished her career was, and I'm sure that most readers would feel the same. As you are the nominator, you are entitled to your opinion and we respect that. Nevertheless, it is important that a suitable hook can be found here that would meet the "interesting to a broad audience" criterion, and right now I have doubts that a hook mentioning the Philadelphia opera is suitable for that purpose. @Buidhe: As the reviewer, maybe you can help guide Gerda towards possible hook wordings here? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 08:34, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry. She is not the normal niche opera singer. She is a well-known name already, see stats, a six-digit number when she died. Normally it's our (tough) job to interest readers in someone whose name they never heard. Here, we have the freedom to say something they may not have heard. The average reader will be drawn in simply by the image. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:21, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- She may not be "the normal niche opera singer", but the proposed hook is lacking interest in its second half. It's also not strictly true, since while Norman didn't appear in a staged opera in the U.S. until 1982, she appeared in 1972 in a concert version of Aida in the Hollywood Bowl, a major coup, and only months after her La Scala debut in the same title role. (Also, "a U.S. stage" is deceptive, since she made many U.S. concert stage appearances in the 1970s.) Ascribing her delayed operatic stage debut to the fact that she's African American (the hook gives no clue that she's American) might be a stretch, since, as the article notes, most aspiring singers of opera went to Europe to get their start, though the reason is more that American opera companies are conservative and less willing to hire unknown singers and give them the apprenticeships needed to learn their craft than European ones. This is going to be one of those times when more familiar touchstones, even if not artistic highlights of a career, are more effective in constructing a hook. One possibility, based on some of the suggestions above (188 characters):
- ALT1:
... that Jessye Norman (pictured), "one of the most popular and highly regarded dramatic soprano singers in the world", performed at the second inaugurations of presidents Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton?—BlueMoonset (talk) 17:56, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- ALT1:
- She may not be "the normal niche opera singer", but the proposed hook is lacking interest in its second half. It's also not strictly true, since while Norman didn't appear in a staged opera in the U.S. until 1982, she appeared in 1972 in a concert version of Aida in the Hollywood Bowl, a major coup, and only months after her La Scala debut in the same title role. (Also, "a U.S. stage" is deceptive, since she made many U.S. concert stage appearances in the 1970s.) Ascribing her delayed operatic stage debut to the fact that she's African American (the hook gives no clue that she's American) might be a stretch, since, as the article notes, most aspiring singers of opera went to Europe to get their start, though the reason is more that American opera companies are conservative and less willing to hire unknown singers and give them the apprenticeships needed to learn their craft than European ones. This is going to be one of those times when more familiar touchstones, even if not artistic highlights of a career, are more effective in constructing a hook. One possibility, based on some of the suggestions above (188 characters):
- Sorry. She is not the normal niche opera singer. She is a well-known name already, see stats, a six-digit number when she died. Normally it's our (tough) job to interest readers in someone whose name they never heard. Here, we have the freedom to say something they may not have heard. The average reader will be drawn in simply by the image. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:21, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- Gerda, I understand you are very enthusiastic about opera and wish to highlight her operatic achievements, but remember that Wikipedia is written for a general audience, not only for classical music fans. A hook that mentions famous names is likely to gain attention from international readers, a hook that mentions a Philadelphia opera company that most Philadelphians have probably never even heard of is less likely to do so. This is not to say that a hook about her opera career can't be used, but rather it has to be written in a way that would even people who don't care about opera care about the hook. Having taken a look at the article, speaking as someone who's never heard of her before, I find these facts I brought up to be very interesting and in fact show how accomplished her career was, and I'm sure that most readers would feel the same. As you are the nominator, you are entitled to your opinion and we respect that. Nevertheless, it is important that a suitable hook can be found here that would meet the "interesting to a broad audience" criterion, and right now I have doubts that a hook mentioning the Philadelphia opera is suitable for that purpose. @Buidhe: As the reviewer, maybe you can help guide Gerda towards possible hook wordings here? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 08:34, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for looking. Perhaps we'll have to make her featured article, sigh. DYK is just too little to do justice to a woman who won appreciation for the lesser performed works, both in opera and lieder. Sorry, for me, a little episode from youth won't do justice to her life achievements, the quote is too general, why promote Reagan or Elizabeth (her key things were opera and lied, not appearing for celebrities), and the Marsellaise was just a big show. Have you seen the video? - Thank you for reading the article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:19, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
ALT1. buidhe 18:13, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- You upset me. At least use the Marsellaise not U.S. presidents. - There was one thing she hated: being cornered in the "dramatic soprano" drawer. There's one word I hate: "popular". I spent days on this article, not the usual few hours. Have mercy. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:21, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- The idea that a hook about an American soprano who was honored in her own country should use the French national anthem instead of two American presidential inaugurations upsets me. But please, offer a new ALT if ALT1 is objectionable. There could be another quote or another angle. For example,
- ALT2: ... that American soprano Jessye Norman (pictured), whose voice was described as a "grand mansion of sound", performed at the second inaugurations of presidents Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton? —BlueMoonset (talk) 23:40, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you, and I slept over it and am less upset, sorry for exploding. I like the beginning of your hook, but not the idea - in women's month! - that this great singer is particularly great because she served two powerful men. Can we do better? This was meant for Black history month, and a little hint at her not being able to make a career in the U.S., only after the European detour, would be welcome. I'd think that the fact that this American singer was invited to sing the song of liberation at the anniversary of quatorze - and not some French singer - would say something about international recognition, - but not if you object.
- ALT3: ... that American soprano Jessye Norman (pictured), whose voice was described as a "grand mansion of sound", made her U.S. operatic debut late, portraying characters from Greek tragedy, Dido, Jocasta and Cassandre? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:13, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
- ALT4: ... that American soprano Jessye Norman (pictured) commissioned woman.life.song, a song cycle by composer Judith Weir with texts by Toni Morrison, Maya Angelou and Clarissa Pinkola Estés? Source Another possibility. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 13:56, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
- Really? You think that hook says that she served two powerful men, rather than she was honored by them? One of the things I like about ALT2 is that she was so honored by both a Republican and a Democratic president, and the quirkiness that it was the second inauguration in both cases. But it seems that the U.S. has negative connotations for you on this one, so I'll withdraw from further discussion and leave this (and the three ALTs) to the reviewers. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:16, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
- I think her art doesn't need the names of politicians whatever party. You probably expect us non-Americans to know which party. (I knew, but found it not quirky.) She was a great dramatic performer, not only voice, which doesn't show at all in ALT2, - what little bit can she perform in such an inauguration, compared to Cassandre? Little story from my life: when she made her debut at the Met, I lived in the States. A friend who knew that I venerated her (and had no TV) offered me to watch the live broadcast of Les Troyens at her house (while she was absent). So I drove about an hour, was fascinated, drove back. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:36, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
- ALT4 is fine for women's month, thank you! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:38, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
- I honestly do not find either ALT3 or ALT4 interesting as I feel they do not give justice to her career. In addition, ALT4 in particular feels still very technical and may not appeal to general audiences (despite the mention of Angelou and Morrison, who are fairly well-known and highly regarded). They do not even give context as to how and why Norman was so well-regarded; if I was a reader who just happened to see ALT4, I would not have known that she was a big deal just from reading it, unlike if the hook mentioned Reagan, Elizabeth II, or the French Revolution. If a hook that appeals to a broad audience is needed but is not politician-centric, and at the same time also shows just how highly-regarded Norman was, I would suggest going with the French Revolution 200th anniversary angle. The way I see it, ALT4 would not appeal to non-opera enthusiasts. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 15:46, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
- What in "she IS already known, we can say something people may NOT know" did you not understand? This is DYK, not trivia pursuit. The French thing was in almost every obituary. Did you see the video? (Yes, I know I asked that before.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:52, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
- I honestly do not find either ALT3 or ALT4 interesting as I feel they do not give justice to her career. In addition, ALT4 in particular feels still very technical and may not appeal to general audiences (despite the mention of Angelou and Morrison, who are fairly well-known and highly regarded). They do not even give context as to how and why Norman was so well-regarded; if I was a reader who just happened to see ALT4, I would not have known that she was a big deal just from reading it, unlike if the hook mentioned Reagan, Elizabeth II, or the French Revolution. If a hook that appeals to a broad audience is needed but is not politician-centric, and at the same time also shows just how highly-regarded Norman was, I would suggest going with the French Revolution 200th anniversary angle. The way I see it, ALT4 would not appeal to non-opera enthusiasts. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 15:46, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
- The idea that a hook about an American soprano who was honored in her own country should use the French national anthem instead of two American presidential inaugurations upsets me. But please, offer a new ALT if ALT1 is objectionable. There could be another quote or another angle. For example,
- You upset me. At least use the Marsellaise not U.S. presidents. - There was one thing she hated: being cornered in the "dramatic soprano" drawer. There's one word I hate: "popular". I spent days on this article, not the usual few hours. Have mercy. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:21, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
I have heard of Judith Weir, and find alt4 very interesting, that would be my choice, but alt2 and 3 are also good. Kingsif (talk) 16:39, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
- You could approve ALT4, DYK? Judith Weir composed the new carol for the centenary 9 lessons and carols at King's College Chapel, DYK? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:56, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
Sorry, I was going to try to close this but after reading above and the article, I think the three things below are very interesting in historical juxtaposition (president/monarch/revolution) and also extends the geographic coverage interest (it would be a bit more interesting if we noted the song "God Save the Queen", but while true, it is not in the article:
ALT5: ... that American soprano Jessye Norman (pictured), whose voice was called a "grand mansion of sound", performed for U.S. presidential inaugurations, serenaded Queen Elizabeth II, and also sang La Marseillaise at the French Revolution's bicentennial?-- Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:38, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
- I think ALT5 is the best option proposed so far as I believe it would have the widest appeal. Upon further reflection, I think some variant of ALT4 would have been suitable given the mention of Angelou, but my concern was that its appeal would have mostly been limited to American readers. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:12, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
- I disagree, - ALT4 will appeal to all women ;) - mentioning four women, it would be the perfect close for women's month. Only, an image which doesn't show a woman is already in place for 31 March. ALT5 - sorry - is a list of sensationalism, and - again - mentions things that anybody who read an obituary knows already. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:29, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
- Adding to my story: I was blessed by listening to her live in Carnegie Hall. After songs by Wagner, Strauss and Chausson, her encore was "This Little Light of Mine", - modesty in person. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:34, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
For DYK purposes I will be approving ALT5 (it meets citing requirements), without prejudice against the approval of the other proposed hooks. I have reservations about ALT4's suitability or interest to a global audience (personally I feel it's somewhat US-centric and might not be interesting to non-Americans who may not be as familiar with Angelou and the other names), but other editors may disagree with this opinion, so I am leaving the decision on whether or not ALT4 will also be approved to other editors (courtesy ping to the main reviewer Buidhe). What hook will be promoted will ultimately be at the promoter's discretion. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:48, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
- I really like ALT5. Let's go with that. buidhe 00:07, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
@Buidhe and Alanscottwalker: On second check, ALT5 as written is not suitable as it's far above the 200 character limit. For it to be used, it will have to be trimmed. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:22, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
- I really like ALT5. Let's go with that. buidhe 00:07, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
- I think ALT5 is the best option proposed so far as I believe it would have the widest appeal. Upon further reflection, I think some variant of ALT4 would have been suitable given the mention of Angelou, but my concern was that its appeal would have mostly been limited to American readers. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:12, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
ALT6 ... that Jessye Norman (pictured), whose voice was called a "grand mansion of sound", performed for U.S. presidential inaugurations and sang La Marseillaise at the French Revolution's bicentennial? buidhe 01:27, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
- It makes me sad. I am out.
- ALT7 ... that the soprano voice of Jessye Norman (pictured), was called a "grand mansion of sound"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:37, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
I hope it's in the picture slot,
- ALT8... that operatic soprano Jessye Norman (pictured) performed for U.S. presidential inaugurations, serenaded Queen Elizabeth II, and also sang La Marseillaise at the French Revolution's bicentennial? Alanscottwalker (talk) 10:24, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
- Approving ALT6, ALT7, and ALT8. My personal choice is ALT8 as it highlights some of her significant achievements, and in my opinion gives justice to a long and successful career; I do really wish the "grand mansion of sound" quote could have been left in had it not been for the character requirement. ALT7, which appears to be the nominator's preferred choice at this point, is also noted. The final pick will be left to the promoter. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 11:02, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for the approval, however how the incidental performances for prominent people would say anything about her achievements, is beyond my comprehension. Opera and lied, the two things she was best at, are not even mentioned, - any pop singer could sing for president, queen and revolution anniversary, - what's the meaning of "justice" then. - I feel strongly that my ability to communicate my concern was too limited. Sorry that the topic is possibly to dear to my heart. My favourite would be ALT4, with a focus on innovative creativity, on top of women. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:23, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
- Narutolovehinata5, you can restore the "mansion of sound" to ALT8 if you drop Queen Elizabeth, or you can restore "American soprano" to ALT6 to get the same result. I've just moved this nomination to the special occasions section, and expect it to be promoted before the end of the month while it's still Women's History Month. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:59, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- Returned from prep per discussion at WT:DYK#Template:Did you know nominations/Jessye Norman. I have added "operatic" to ALT per Alanscottwalker's request. As I noted at WT:DYK, I agree with Gerda Arendt that ALTs 6, 7, 8 say nothing about her career and in fact refer to achievements that many singers have done. I think we need wider consensus on what makes a good lead hook here. Yoninah (talk) 19:38, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- I fixed it. For Alt 8, no one in the world did those three things and no one could ever do them again. Not only was she was in demand, across continents and countries to bless important civic events, they show the historic breadth of that demand, and are historically fascinating in juxtaposition. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:51, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- OK, we have you, Narutolovehinata5, and Buidhe preferring something about singing at inaugurations, and the nominator Gerda Arendt, Kingsif, and myself preferring other hooks. Would anyone else like to chime in here? Yoninah (talk) 19:56, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- Adding, suggest also reading the first paragraph of this Smithsonian Magazine article,[1]. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:37, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- OK, we have you, Narutolovehinata5, and Buidhe preferring something about singing at inaugurations, and the nominator Gerda Arendt, Kingsif, and myself preferring other hooks. Would anyone else like to chime in here? Yoninah (talk) 19:56, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- I fixed it. For Alt 8, no one in the world did those three things and no one could ever do them again. Not only was she was in demand, across continents and countries to bless important civic events, they show the historic breadth of that demand, and are historically fascinating in juxtaposition. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:51, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- Narutolovehinata5, you can restore the "mansion of sound" to ALT8 if you drop Queen Elizabeth, or you can restore "American soprano" to ALT6 to get the same result. I've just moved this nomination to the special occasions section, and expect it to be promoted before the end of the month while it's still Women's History Month. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:59, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for the approval, however how the incidental performances for prominent people would say anything about her achievements, is beyond my comprehension. Opera and lied, the two things she was best at, are not even mentioned, - any pop singer could sing for president, queen and revolution anniversary, - what's the meaning of "justice" then. - I feel strongly that my ability to communicate my concern was too limited. Sorry that the topic is possibly to dear to my heart. My favourite would be ALT4, with a focus on innovative creativity, on top of women. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:23, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
- @Yoninah, Gerda Arendt, Narutolovehinata5, Buidhe, and Alanscottwalker: When someone achieves greatly, as she did, you get obits about all their career highlights, which is mostly what is here. Singing before heads of state are not all that unusual for singers who rose to greatness. Obits tend to mirror each other from one to another. However, I've found one thing that is not in the Wikipedia article, but maybe should be. More reflective of the spirit that drove her. And maybe could be worked into a hook. She granted an interview to the Chicago Sun-Times in 2002, that includes a nifty quote about why she sang whatever kind of music moved her:"Pigeonholing," said Norman, "is only interesting to pigeons." 1, 2, 3, etc. — Maile (talk) 20:53, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- I don't view it as just singing for heads of state. Reviewing the videos, I think it is literally singing and uplifting whole nations of people. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:13, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- Then I suggest you read the intro of this. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:43, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- I hope a quote is not too long for coyright concerns: "What they represent, as only Norman (or Miss Norman as even some of her closest friends addressed her, ever in awe) could, is the capacity of art to make us go so deeply inside our emotions that we overcome them and have a new awareness, a mini enlightenment." --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:46, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- Indeed, and one can see that on display in the videos of the three highlighted performances. She blessed, and belonged to the world. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:57, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- I apologize for making this clear during my earlier message, but the reason I brought it up was not because I do not support ALT4; in fact, I'm open to it being promoted if there was consensus for it. It was merely due to technicality issues (i.e. the hook that was promoted, ALT4, was not actually approved in the review; if it was, for example ALT8 that was promoted without being approved I would have noted it as well). In any case, as there are only five days left before March ends, we'll have to agree on a hook if this is still to go up during Women's Month; Maile's suggestion about pigeonholing could be interesting depending on the wording used. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 22:16, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- I don't care any more. - I have no idea what pigeonholing means in German, and am tired of discussing. I think that we all agree that she is just too great for a little DYK. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:21, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- You read my mind! Greatness is hard to capture. I think, "sublime" has a meaning of can't be put into words. --
- I don't care any more. - I have no idea what pigeonholing means in German, and am tired of discussing. I think that we all agree that she is just too great for a little DYK. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:21, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:34, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- So ALT7? Yoninah (talk) 22:34, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- I would be fine with ALT7 as a compromise choice. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 22:39, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- Eh, the reason I think I dropped that phrase, is along the lines of 'don't tell me (she's great), show me.' Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:42, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: my apologies for not realizing that "pigeon holing" might not be familiar to you. See Pigeonholing. For an entertainer, it would be something like, "They sing songs written by Broadway composers, therefore, they shouldn't sing songs by Elton John". Or something like that. — Maile (talk) 23:01, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for the explanation, but it makes me not eager to phrase a hook around it, - again saying what not. Remember: the original hook said some things about what happened in her life and what kind of repertoire she supported: not the standard mainstream.
- ALT9:
... Jessye Norman (pictuured)? - 325,825 page views since she died, so many will say yes. And what's DYK in comparison anyway? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:18, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
- Good interview, was just added to the external links. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:27, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
- Everyone, we are out of time if this is to run during Women's History Month as a lead hook. Both March 30 and 31 have lead hooks that are special occasion ones, so March 29 (Sunday) is all that's left. I put a comment holding the lead spot for this special occasion nomination several days ago, but we have maybe 30 hours to settle on a hook and get it promoted to prep, so it can in turn be promoted to a queue and run in the few hours that remain before promotion to the main page. If that doesn't happen, another hook will have to be used and we lose our chance.
- My thoughts on the hooks: I prefer ALT6 to ALT7, but both to ALT8: giving a feel for her artistry is highly desirable, and I find "grand mansion of sound" to be wonderfully evocative, but having the very concrete inaugurations and French anniversary along with it gives another dimension. (I've struck ALT9 as a non-starter, and something we can't afford to waste time on if we want Norman's picture to appear on Sunday, since hooks of that form always run into trouble.) I'm not that fond of ALT4, and unless someone reviews and approves it we can't consider it. Pinging all the people previously involved in this discussion in the hopes a consensus can emerge quickly: Gerda Arendt, Buidhe, Mary Mark Ockerbloom, Narutolovehinata5, Kingsif, Alanscottwalker, Yoninah, and Maile (apologies to anyone I missed!). BlueMoonset (talk) 07:29, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
- If we have ALT6, ALT7 and ALT8 left, my choice would be ALT7, focused on her. I don't believe that presidents and a queen make her shine brighter. ALT6 is acceptable. - I never meant ALT9 to be taken, just as an expression of helplessness to find words about one of the greatest. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:38, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
- My preference is ALT6 as a compromise choice as it both describes her voice as well as her achievements. Although I do not find ALT7 as interesting as ALT6, it would be acceptable to me as the promoted hook if there's consensus for it. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 07:42, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
- It does not matter if it runs this month or not (it also didn't run last month), what matters is that it is in the picture slot, and cobbling together the blurb, as to the last item, I withdraw all objections to all proposals to move this along. Alanscottwalker (talk) 10:59, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
- It is already in a picture slot for Sunday, - the hook being the only question. The hook doesn't matter too much because her smile is more radiant than our little words. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:16, 27 March 2020 (UTC)