Template:Did you know nominations/James Bond (naval officer)
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by PFHLai (talk) 11:26, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
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- ... that James Bond has died?
- ALT1:... that James Bond was a Commander in the Royal Australian Navy?
- ALT2:... that Commander James Bond has died?
- Reviewed: Steve Hamilton (broadcaster)
Created by Edwardx (talk) and Philafrenzy (talk). Self-nominated at 22:18, 30 May 2016 (UTC).
| General: Article is new enough and long enough |
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| Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems |
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Hook eligibility:
- Cited:
- The original hook seems best but the death is not stated in the article nor clearly cited. - Interesting:
QPQ: 
- tbd
Overall: 
Andrew D. (talk) 23:43, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
Somehow, I did not se Andrew D.'s review when I started to look at this. I agree on newness and length, but I have issues with close paraphrasing:- Article (lede): ... best known for discovering and charting Hydrographers Passage, a new deep-water shipping channel through the Great Barrier Reef.
- Source: ... earned his place in maritime history by the discovery and charting of Hydrographers Passage, a new deep-water shipping channel through the Great Barrier Reef.
- Article (early life): Graham James Bond was born in Adelaide on 4 October 1945, but only his mother ever called him Graham.
- Source: Graham James Bond was born on October 4 1945 in Adelaide, where only his mother ever called him by his first given name.
- Article (career): Bond was given the command of the Royal Australian Navy survey ship HMAS Flinders in 1980, and for the next three years, conducted surveys off the Queensland coast and Papua New Guinea.
- Source: In 1980 Bond was appointed to command the Royal Australian Navy’s survey ship HMAS Flinders and over the next three years he conducted surveys off the coasts of Queensland and Papua New Guinea, including a passage through the Great Barrier Reef for the export of coal from Australia’s rich fields.
- Article (career): In 1985, Bond received the J P Thomson Foundation Gold Medal, from the Duke of Kent, honorary president of the Royal Geographical Society, on behalf of the officers and men of HMAS Flinders, for this discovery.
- Source: For this achievement in 1985, Bond accepted from the Duke of Kent, honorary president of Royal Geographical Society, the J P Thomson Foundation Gold Medal, on behalf of the officers and men of HMAS Flinders.
- According to the personal life section "In 1969, he married Linda Baxter, and they had two daughters and a son, Melanie, Sharon, and Jamie, before separating, in 1969." The Telegraph source confirms a 1969 separation and 3 children, but not a marriage in the same year and unless there were triplets, something is odd here.
- I disagree with Andrew D. on the hook, all three are supported by the Telegraph reference which includes a date of death at the end, as well as the promotion to Commander. I think ALT2 is best, or the original hook - both nice and hooky. Current reference 2 (SMH) is a bare url, which is also not ok under DYK rules. Plagiarism / Close paraphrasing is the major issue, though, in my opinion. EdChem (talk) 15:29, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
- My position about the hook is unchanged as the article currently does not make a clear statement that James Bond is dead. One can perhaps infer this in a couple of places but we should not have to make such inferences. I don't dispute that the subject is actually dead and that the sources confirm this; the issue is that the article doesn't state this. Anyway, we can revisit this after the close paraphrase issue has been addressed. Andrew D. (talk) 16:28, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
- @Andrew Davidson: His date of death is given, it can be referenced to the telegraph obituary. What sort of a clear statement do you see as appropriate? EdChem (talk) 14:42, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
- The general DYK guidance is "The hook fact(s) must be stated in the article, and must be immediately followed by an inline citation to a reliable source." The date in the lead does not say explicitly that he died then; that's just a conventional implication. And there is no inline citation following the date so this won't do. The problem seems to be that the Telegraph obituary doesn't say anything about his death. The obituary in the Sydney Morning Herald seems better and notice that it gives a different date for the death – 8th April, rather than 12th. This demonstrates the importance of a good citation. As the date is now disputed, we now need a more solid source to base this on. Andrew D. (talk) 15:21, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
- Comment I don't follow Andrew. The Telegraph say "died April 12 2016" in an article marked "obituaries". Do you want us to produce the body Andrew? The Sydney Morning Herald say 12th. I have added both with an inline cite in both cases and just April 2016 at the top. This should be sufficient to get past this point? On the family, I think that was based on a misreading. He had three children with Linda whom he married in 1969 and later (not necessarily 1969) separated from. His later partner, but not wife, was Robin. This should be all OK now apart from the rewrite. Philafrenzy (talk) 18:58, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
- The article has now been updated to say "Bond died on 8 or 12 April 2016." This is better but the trouble is that one of these sources is clearly wrong and so is not reliable. But we don't know which one. Perhaps both of them are wrong. I'm not comfortable basing a hook on such weak ground. Recent deaths have some BLP considerations and so a high standard of accuracy is expected. There's a bulletin board called "Gun Plot" which has the date of the 8th too but that doesn't seem to be a reliable source. There are three entries for BOND G J in the Australian National Archives but they seem to be his service record and don't have his death yet. Perhaps there some records at state level? Andrew D. (talk) 21:46, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
- Do you dispute that he died in April 2016 Andrew? We have two RSs that say so and the hook does not depend on a particular date, just the fact that he is dead. Philafrenzy (talk) 22:10, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
- I dispute the reliability of the Telegraph obituary which is currently cited extensively. It gives the date of death as the 12th. There's an Australian government source dated the 15th which says "passed away last week". The 12th is in the same week as the 15th and so it seems to be the date that is wrong. I think we should be using the Sydney Morning Herald and the AMSA sources to support the hook. Note that the SMH also has a bit more detail about the death, "James Bond died on April 8, at his Braidwood farm" which indicates that they are better informed. The Telegraph's date should perhaps appear in a footnote but, as it doesn't agree with the other sources, we should not otherwise use it. For further ideas, please see the earlier case of Lynsey de Paul which shows how the news media can vary considerably about basic facts. I was investigating a complaint at work myself yesterday and it was hard to get at the truth because there seemed to be more than one person of the same name. Andrew D. (talk) 07:11, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
- The fact is he is undisputedly dead. There are multiple sources that indicate he died in either the second or third week of April. Unless there is reason to believe he did not actually die, what is the holdup? Either of the sources support the information used in either hook. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:32, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
- Source 1 says he died. Source 2 says he died. There's a few days variance on the exact date in April 2016 when that happened, but that confusion is not unusual when news sources first report a celebrity death. No source denies he died. He's dead. It's verified with two sources. Move on. — Maile (talk) 14:25, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you, Andrew D., EdChem, Philafrenzy, Only in death, and Maile66. I've rewritten much of the article, and done a QPQ review. And he is certainly dead. I prefer the original hook. Edwardx (talk) 19:05, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
