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Template:Did you know nominations/Historical policy of Law and Justice

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by Amkgp (talk) 10:01, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

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Historical policy of the Law and Justice party

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  • ... that the historical policy of the Polish ruling party has been described as "a pumped-up martyr complex focused on conspiracy theories"? Source: "Poland has always been invested in the idea that its role and suffering in world history has been underestimated, and PiS’s version of that history — a pumped-up martyr complex focused on conspiracy theories — has found an audience." https://www.calvertjournal.com/articles/show/8066/curating-a-nation-controversy-gdansk-ww2-museum
    • ALT1:... that the 1941 Jedwabne pogrom, in which hundreds of Jews were murdered by Poles, is viewed by the Polish ruling party as an attack on Polishness and Polish identity? Source: "According to the politicians, historians, and journalists representing PiS’s ideological position, Jedwabne and other events that cast a negative light on Polish national identity must be revisited and retold for both Poles and the West. In their eyes, Jedwabne is a key sign of ‘all the lies voiced against the Polish nation,’ and is understood as the ‘central attack’ on Polishness, Polish values and traditions, and Polish identity (understood in an ethnic sense)" 10.1080/23256249.2017.1376793

Created by Buidhe (talk). Self-nominated at 00:05, 20 October 2020 (UTC).

  • Not yet. Needs work. At the moment it looks like WP:SYNTH. From the article it is unclear that the "historical policy" does officially exist (it does), rather than a collection of factoids that demonstrate a biased presentation of country's history, not uncommon in many countries. For example I would love to see an article about revisionism, often really idiotic, of the History of Ukraine since 2010s. Staszek Lem (talk) 05:08, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
  • It could use improvement but it is a valid topic and meets DYK requirements. Żuk's, Hackmann's, and Michlic's articles, published in academic journals, unambiguously state that the historical policy exists. Please feel free to expand or improve the article; I don't own it. (t · c) buidhe 05:44, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
    • Żuk's unambiguously state that the historical policy exists --The article also says "Polish Law and Justice party has developed a "historical policy". -- If it exists, the article must show how it is stated by the Party as a party policy, otherwise this is dismissible as an opinionated cherry-picked bullshit by the liberals and enemies of the Polish state. Staszek Lem (talk) 10:11, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
      • Zuk quotes from the PiS party programs, for instance:

        The lack of any coherent “textbook” policy prevents the formation of a common consciousness of students and, at the same time, leads to the transmission of scandalous content, for example, communist crimes and the scale of German crimes in World War II are relativized. These measures use education to deconstruct our identity. […] The attack on tradition and the associated national consciousness is ostentatious in the cultural sphere. The preference for creativity that is detrimental to Polish values is clear. Leftist periodicals are supported; various types of state-funded cultural transmission attack patriotism and national values.

        Hackmann states:

        Since 2015, the right-wing Polish government has attempted to closely control those institutions that are regarded as crucial for shaping the national remembrance in order to implement a mnemonic policy with the aim of promoting patriotism and defending a positive image of the ethno-linguistically defined Polish nation abroad.

        (t · c) buidhe 16:46, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

My review: date, size, refs, are good. Notability and neutrality - likely ok, but this is a touchy topic and I am not sure if the ALT1 about Jedwabne is neutral. Anyway, a techical issue - this needs to have lead cut to size (I don't suggest removing content, just moving it to the article's main body). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:53, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

"Jedwabne Pogrom... is viewed as an attack on Polishness" -- the author really has problems with logic. I hate editing political articles, but I have to note that the colleague seems to raise his struggle with Polish neoconservatism in Wikipedia to nonencyclopedic levels. Staszek Lem (talk) 10:21, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
The author is stating that the conclusion that Poles were responsible for Jedwabne is an attack on Polishness, at least according to PiS. These historical facts are inconvenient, hence the claim (not supported by the available evidence) that Poles were not responsible... (t · c) buidhe 16:46, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
I know well what was and is with Jedwabne. I am saying that logic in your writing sucks, and you still do not see this. Please somebody else explain them or somebody explain me how a pogrom may be seen as an attack on Polishness. Staszek Lem (talk) 23:11, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Also, I am afraid the article is not stable. Both me and Staszek raised neutrality concerns, that Buidhe has promptly reverted: [1], [2]. There is ongoing discussion on talk. Setting aside a quickly decline AfD by a user blocked as sock, I am increasingly convinced this likely fails the stability and neutrality criteria for the main page. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:55, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

  • The neutrality concerns were all about one sentence, which I supported with a quote on talk page. I am always ready to consider if another wording may be best, but it is not appropriate to tag an entire article for neutrality based on one sentence. Also, Piotrus used failed verification tags without actually trying to verify the content in the cited source. Since the article was just created it has undergone edits in the last few days but not beyond what is expected for a dyk article. (t · c) buidhe 16:03, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

The article seems to be based on politically engaged polemics that are blatantly false in certain parts. For example the statement: According to this narrative, Poles were exclusively victims and heroes during World War II and the Communist era is absurd as PiS is waging at least two campaigns to shame and deprive of memory any Pole who in their view "collaborated with Communism" [3]Kiszczak i Jaruzelski to byli zdrajcy narodu:Kiszczack and Jaruzelski were traitors to the nation or wszyscy komunistyczni kolaboranci, którzy uczestniczyli w prześladowaniach Polaków i sprawowali władzę w imieniu Moskwy, powinni być przeniesieni z cmentarzy, które dzisiaj są narodowymi nekropoliami all communist collaborators who took part in repressions against Poles and waged power in the name of Moscow should be removed from cemeteries that are today national necropolises. So yeah, the claim that PiS sees Poles only as heroes is easily verified as false.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 19:43, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

  • I don't think this is an accurate representation. As the statement you quote indicates, any Poles who do not behave the way they are supposed to are not "real Poles". This division has been noticed in research:

Epithets which divided Poles in two groups and indicated on bad intentions of political opponents became a part of newspeak of Polish rightist spectrum. Here it is possible to identify a division into “real Poles” with reference to followers of “right”and “false” Poles with reference to the rest as well as [insults such as] “lemmings” with reference to voters of PO and left wing,“communists”, “thieves” etc. [and suggesting that not only Donald Tusk but entire population groups such as Kashubians or Silesians are German]

— Modrzejewsk, Arkadiusz (2017). "Catholic and Nationalist Populism in the Current Poland". Perspective politice. Scoala Nationala de Studii Politice si Administrative. ISSN 1841-6098.
  • Hence why, as Sadurski put it, "the [2018] law clearly resonates with a nationalistic government rhetoric, under which Polish history is comprised exclusively of heroic acts and undeserved victimhood, and never of criminal deeds." If they're responsible for "criminal deeds" one can conclude that they are not really a Pole but a communist puppet, etc. Hackmann notes that in the Ulma museum, "the policeman who presumably gave the hint to the hidden Jews, is questioned to be a Pole, because he was Greek Catholic".
  • You state that these peer reviewed papers are all "politically engaged polemics" but they are actually research papers published in respected journals such as Journal of Genocide Research and Dapim: Studies on the Holocaust. I think that the editorial boards of these journals should count for more than one wikieditor's opinion. (t · c) buidhe 21:12, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
If they're responsible for "criminal deeds" one can conclude that they are not really a Pole but a communist puppet Please read on WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. You are wandering of to creating your own personal theories. Wikipedia is not the place for this.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 21:20, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
The sentence you are complaining about has been rewritten. Are there any further complaints based on concrete issues, or is this a case of IDONTLIKEIT? (t · c) buidhe 22:49, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

The article is fine. All I see is people who ignore reliable sources, and want to push content from PiS's website onto Wikipedia. I opened a RfC to settle it: Talk:Historical policy of the Law and Justice party#Request for comment: PiS program from its website as first section. Kasha lover (talk) 05:41, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

An obvious sockpuppet. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:16, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
  • Any updates on this? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 06:31, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
  • There has been no meaningful progress since October, and Buidhe has been unable to respond to concerns in spite of activity elsewhere, as well as talk page notifications. Given the remaining article issues, this nomination is now marked for closure. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 02:47, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
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