- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:48, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
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Grace Macurdy edit
Grace Macurdy in her classroom
... that Grace Macurdy (pictured) was already losing her hearing when she became chair of Greek at Vassar in 1920, and she continued to teach, research, and travel until retirement in 1937 despite her deafness?
Improved to Good Article status by KateCook (talk). Nominated by Claire 75 (talk) at 12:55, 6 June 2018 (UTC).
Interesting life, good article on good sources, offline sources accepted AGF, no copyvio obvious. The image is licensed, but doesn't show anything in small size, - can it be cut? - The hook is ok, but doesn't say anything about her themes of research, so could be said about many persons in the condition, no? I took the liberty to link Vassar. - Suggestions for the article: Find a way to not repeat a book title, if you have several references to different pages. I use Harvard refs, but you can achieve it with named references as well. "bought into conflict"? "bought her into conflict"? "bought conflict"? I find the lead extremely short for a GA, can you summarize a bit? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:51, 8 June 2018 (UTC)- Thank you for the crop, Froggerlaura, that's much better! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:30, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
- Kate. Claire, are you interested in improving? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:08, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
- I've had a go at fixing the lead - in terms of the hook, what about '... that Grace Macurdy, a pioneering Ancient Historian, was the first American woman to gain a PhD at Columbia, and the first woman to lecture publicly in Classics at King's College, Cambridge, where she spoke about 'Great Macedonian Women'?' It might be a bit clunky. KateCook (talk) 11:20, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you for more lead. The new hook is a bit too much of a good thing, how about this:
- ALT1: ... that Grace Macurdy (pictured), a pioneering American ancient historian, was the first woman to lecture classics publicly at King's College, Cambridge? I'd still like you to not repeat the same ref information how many times? just for different page numbers of the same, but it's no requirement for an approval. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:47, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
- I've had a go at fixing the lead - in terms of the hook, what about '... that Grace Macurdy, a pioneering Ancient Historian, was the first American woman to gain a PhD at Columbia, and the first woman to lecture publicly in Classics at King's College, Cambridge, where she spoke about 'Great Macedonian Women'?' It might be a bit clunky. KateCook (talk) 11:20, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
Getting there I think. Could we put more prominence on her achievements as a historian and say something like Grace Macurdy (pictured), became the first woman to lecture classics publicly at King's College, Cambridge. She changed how women in the ancient past were studied and pioneered using material evidence with written texts. Claire 75 (talk) 12:19, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
- I see that you are new to this ;) - nothing wrong with it. - The article is supposed to do that. Put it in the lead if that important. The hook is only there to lure readers into the article, - you want them to click, so don't say it all, or they will think they know it all. Also, you address a broad readership, no specialists in education. I think that an American was the first woman teaching the subject at this traditional College is some achievement, and you'll want to know more. - You are welcome to word an ALT, but it has to be all in one sentence, ending on a question mark. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:25, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
- Here's a tightened up version of what was suggested above. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 18:02, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
... ALT2: ... that Grace Macurdy (pictured), the first woman to lecture classics publicly at King's College, Cambridge, changed how women in the ancient past were studied with her examinations of material evidence? Wyles, p. 194, 210- not quite that new thanks, and I'm not that keen on 'first women' DYK hooks; it makes it seem more extraordinary that a woman might do a thing... but if we're going with that angle - she was both the first american woman to gain a PhD at Columbia and the first woman to lecture publicly in classics at King's College, Cambridge so we could use that. Her achievement in classics disciplines is important (I'm a classicist) and not quite as Mary Mark Ockerbloom characterises. It was actually the putting together of different sources - material and textual evidence - that was a major contribution by Macurdy and contributed to shaping what classics is today. Claire 75 (talk) 19:12, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you, Mary, for ALT2, also for tightening the refs! Claire, by "to this" I didn't mean editing, but specifically DYK. I was ready to approve both ALT1 and ALT2, but feel that it's not yet good for you. Then please word something, but in DYK style. I am also no friend of "firsts", only reworded what Kate brought up. Good luck. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:21, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Claire 75 and Gerda Arendt: We could try something like the following: I have added it to the lead. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 23:22, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
- ... ALT3: ... that Grace Macurdy (pictured) shaped the field of classics by pulling together both material evidence and textual evidence as sources in her pioneering studies of individual women? "Macurdy’s research on these intriguing figures in Hellenistic and Roman history ranks as the first effort by a classical scholar, female or male, to recover and document the lives of individual women ... Grace recognized the need to move beyond the confines of traditional text-based scholarship. It was clear that women’s lives could not be reconstructed from historical and literary texts alone, ... Grace had to supplement texts with material evidence, especially coins and inscriptions, but also sculpture, vases, and papyri." Sources: Hallet
ALT1 and ALT3, the prep builders can decide, - and then someone else will change it, - both the next set and the following have a hook that I didn't suggest and would not have approved. In the end, it's not that important WHAT makes a reader come to the article. - I am happy with today's. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:32, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
- I like either (with a slight preference perhaps for ALT1, as I agree that to be giving that lecture at that time at that college was pretty outstanding - and I agree that whatever directs people and fits the standard template is good enough! Entirely happy to go with ALT3 if Claire prefers, however. Thanks very much for your help reframing, @Gerda Arendt and @Mary Mark Ockerbloom. KateCook (talk) 14:41, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
- not quite that new thanks, and I'm not that keen on 'first women' DYK hooks; it makes it seem more extraordinary that a woman might do a thing... but if we're going with that angle - she was both the first american woman to gain a PhD at Columbia and the first woman to lecture publicly in classics at King's College, Cambridge so we could use that. Her achievement in classics disciplines is important (I'm a classicist) and not quite as Mary Mark Ockerbloom characterises. It was actually the putting together of different sources - material and textual evidence - that was a major contribution by Macurdy and contributed to shaping what classics is today. Claire 75 (talk) 19:12, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
