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Template:Did you know nominations/Francesco Lanzillotta

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 08:11, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

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Francesco Lanzillotta

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Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 22:12, 7 September 2022 (UTC).

  • The article is new enough and long enough, with the hook fact being cited inline (AGF as they're cited to non-English sources). A QPQ has been done. The hook, however, may only appeal to classical music fans, as I'm not sure if general audiences would find it interesting that a conductor conducted Verdi's works in German opera houses, especially if they were unfamiliar with the significance of the Berlin and Frankfurt operas. My suggestion would be to propose hooks about the "search for identity" quote from the Süddeutsche Zeitung review, as I imagine that even a non-classical music fan could find that angle interesting. I'd also like to ask David Eppstein if he has any alternative hook suggestions as well. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 04:20, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
    • Yet another totally boring "Did you know that musician X did exactly what you would expect a musicician to do" hook, yet again failing WP:DYKCRIT 3a. If all you can say about someone is career milestones and performances, you might consider just not nominating every new article for DYK. For myself, I create far more new articles than I nominate at DYK, because most of the articles I create would produce hooks that are possibly even more boring. That said, there is only one thing that catches my attention in this article:
      • ALT1 that Italian opera conductor and composer Francesco Lanzillotta has been described as "unafraid of massive sounds"?
    (It would be even more attention-catching if he were afraid, rather than unafraid, but either way the thought of a musician being afraid of any kind of sound is the sort of thing that makes you stop and re-read.) —David Eppstein (talk) 06:16, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
Thank you David. ALT1 is quite a good hook and close to what I had suggested during my review. My concern right now is that I'm checking the reference for the Süddeutsche Zeitung review ([1]) and it appears to make no mention of either Lanzillotta or the review quotes. Is this the correct source for the review? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:35, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
ALT0a: ... that Francesco Lanzillotta conducted Verdi's La traviata in Varna, Bulgaria, and Dallapiccola's Ulisse at Oper Frankfurt?
That is my first response. It's unusual that an Italian conductor works in Bulgaria. Germany is more usual, but Ulisse is highly unusual, and it would be great to say that he was unafraid to do that piece, than just massive sounds, - which person afraid of massive sounds would become a conductor? People may not know that Ulisse is giant and rarely performed, but they can find out. The search for self-request, however, was already mentioned with the protagonist, and we don't want to bore readers. I had added Berlin, because readers would know that Berlin is important, but we can trust them to know that all that is presented on DYK is interesting. The other day we had DYK, saying no more than that song by singer was hand-picked by singer, - nothing about when where why? Like ALT1. The line in the review says "scheut Klangballungen nicht, betont aber doch vor allem die fließende Suche". Hard to translate, perhaps you can help. My translater program says "does not shy away from clusters of sound, but emphasises above all the flowing search". Cluster is not really what "geballt" means, which comes from "geballte Faust" = clenched fist. Is there an expression such as "clenched sounds"? Anyway, I'd shy away from using an unprecise translation as the only thing about a BLP, without any word about achievements. Storye book, what do you think? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:31, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
So the sole thing I find interesting here is an imprecision of translation? How unfortunate. Please note that unusual and interesting are different things. One can find unusual things to say about someone merely by piling up so much detail as to make that exact combination unique — it is unusual that Francesco Lanzillotta has that exact name, rather than some other name, for instance, but his name is not an interesting aspect of this topic. —David Eppstein (talk) 07:39, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
(ec) I searched for something in English and found a translation of the very review: "The conductor Francesco Lanzillotta guides the detailed playing of the Frankfurt Opera and Museum Orchestra with careful attention, does not shy away from agglomerations of sound, but above all emphasizes the flowing search." - We might use "agglomerations" if I am the only one who didn't know the word. The "flowing search", however, makes sense only if one knows about the main character's search for identity, which - as the last line says - "... is definitely worth discussing. Because Ulisse, that nobody in search of himself, is still our contemporary." - Can we use the English version as a ref? (Asking because the last time I wanted to use a translated news item the edit was refused because the url (Teller, I believe) was not trusted. If yes, on top or in addition?
Now, after edit conflict: I didn't claim it was a translation, no quotation marks. I changed to the translation in that English version now. Some things loose in translation, and then I believe it's better not to translate. We will disagree about "interesting". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:54, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
In this case: while the agglomerations may sound interesting, the review continues that the focus was something else, so I would not want to only say what was not the focus, and the other would be too hard in DYK length. That's why I chose to just link the piece, and readers can decide if they want to follow exploring and how far. Just mentioning sounds, however agglomerated, leads to no exploration. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:58, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
You're still not addressing the point: When no interesting hook can be found, we should not have a hook and a DYK at all. Failure to be interesting is just as much a failure to meet the requirements of DYK as is failure to meet the minimum length standard, even if it is more subjective. There is no guarantee that a new article get a DYK, and inability to find an adequate hook is a valid reason that it might not. —David Eppstein (talk) 08:02, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
  • Ahem. I would like to know what "agglomerations of sound" means here. It can't just mean a massive sound - a shell going off is a massive sound but it's not an agglomeration - it's just one shell/gun. If you google "agglomeration" you get "a mass or collection of things, or assemblage".
  • So it's not just a loud noise. Nor is it the "wall of sound" that we often hear in popular music - the point of a wall of sound in pop music is that the sounds in it are cohesive and solid when put together - you enjoy it as a unit. Listen to Lanzilotta's Rite of Spring (Stravinsky) on YouTube, around 13.22. That is a true agglomeration of sound - even more so if you are actually there, and even even more so when it was new and strange music and the audience walked out. It's loads of clearly separate and different instrumental sounds fighting with each other. They clash harmonically and the score for that piece looks like lots of bunches of grapes, because so many of the sounds are only a semitone apart - like playing all the black and all the white notes on the piano together. That fudges into an amorphous lump of sound on the piano because the piano strings empathise with each other too much - but in Lanzilotta's performances you can hear every instrumental line separately. I'm three-quarters deaf and even I can separate them out. Clarity makes a great conductor. If you could find a quote which mentions clarity then you've got the idea of him. The word "precision" in the article is a clue to how he does it.
  • Meanwhile, "boring" is a subjective word, which only affects certain social groups in the context of certain subjects. As reviewers we need to be open to all subjects. There is nothing you could say about baseball, computer games and maths which would not bore the heck out of me, but I would fight for your right to include them in DYK. DYK represents WP which represents (among other things) something for everyone. If you can't stand certain subjects, step away and let others review them. There is still plenty of room on the Main Page for subjects that you can handle. Storye book (talk) 09:52, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
@David Eppstein: Are you okay with ALT2? I'm willing to approve it if you don't find it problematic. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:03, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
Thank you, Storye book! I am sorry but I don't understand ALT2, the connection of precision and the aggl. of sounds, - precision is also in his soft passages. It also doesn't find him a place in time and location (besides his name so Italian that I believe the "from Rome" doesn't add much in ALT1a). Combine?
ALT3: ... that when Francesco Lanzillotta conducted Dallapiccola's Ulisse at Oper Frankfurt in 2022, a reviewer noted that he "does not shy away from agglomerations of sound"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:16, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
I'm also okay with ALT3. I'll just wait for David's response before deciding if I'll approve it or not. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:26, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
  • Ok with me, as long as someone fluent in both English and German (which I do not speak) can confirm the accuracy of the updated translation. —David Eppstein (talk) 15:39, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
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