- The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Allen3 talk 14:15, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
Frances Senska edit
... that although she herself had just two academic quarters of training in ceramics, Montana State University educator and artist Frances Senska trained several internationally known ceramic artists?
- Reviewed: Japanese battleship Tango
Created/expanded by PumpkinSky (talk), Tim1965 (talk). Nominated by Tim1965 (talk) at 18:37, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
First a word of praise to the nominator for a review that is not required if you nominate for someone else. - Date, length, sourcing fine, quotations marked. Minor questions: 1) article, I sometimes don't know who a "her" is, might be the artist's mother, would name her a bit more in such cases. The line about home-schooling reads as if she would walk three days to school, but I guess the school is a three day walk away and she could not live at home. Or what? The lead doesn't need any citation, and in the article one citation for several consecutive sentences would be enough for me, 2) hook, too long to be exciting, to my taste, also I don't think that two known artists amount to "several", suggest
- ALT1:
... that Frances Senska was known as the "grandmother of ceramics in Montana" although she had studied ceramics only briefly with László Moholy-Nagy?--Gerda Arendt (talk) 00:42, 20 October 2011 (UTC)- I prefer the original hook but not a big deal to me. The "hers" do not confuse me so elaborate or feel free to change yourself. As for home-schooling, it was too far away and kids lived there--the original quote in the source is "my father said, "You know, things hit so fast here that I don't want you to be a three days' walk away from us." So they kept me at home and schooled me instead of sending me to the school that the mission had established for their children". Will defer to Tim and you on sources. PumpkinSky talk 01:00, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, Gerda! You and I both know how few noms are getting reviewed these days. I had to review something! LOL! I agree that the two cites behind the dates of her teaching at MSU can be removed, as those dates (which could be factually challenged) are cited elsehwere. The "grandmother" sentence needs to be in the lead, as it helps establish notability, but it needs to be cited as the phrase is a quotation. Both the Ostermann and the Slivka and Tsujimoto cites say "several" but only names Autio and Voulkos by name. There are other cites for the those two, so I thought we should leave those two cites in the lead to establish "several." But I'd defer to others if they think this needs to be handled differently. As Senska studied with more teachers than Moholy-Nagy (Heath, Grotell, and Wildenhain are mentioned and cited), so I don't think ALT1 would be accurate. - Tim1965 (talk) 01:21, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- The citing does not have to be changed, just for the next article: whatever is cited in the article, can be summarized in the lead without duplicating the citation, to my understanding. - Internationality: I think nothing in the article relates more to the international art scene than the most famous (!) name of that teacher. But if you prefer the original hook: can you put it the other way round, say first who she is, then talk about her short study? (You would have lost me as a reader who is not interested in short studies before her name was even mentioned.) Also I would be more interested in her enormously long teaching period than in the exact academic terms of her ceramics studies, which anyway might be just called "briefly". Just a suggestion. Please do something about the school sentence. The "her" - yes, reading it a second time you know it's her. But perhaps you could change it so that the reader gets it the first time. Just a suggestion, smiling, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:07, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- I tried a fix for "her", see if you like it, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:16, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- I prefer the original hook but not a big deal to me. The "hers" do not confuse me so elaborate or feel free to change yourself. As for home-schooling, it was too far away and kids lived there--the original quote in the source is "my father said, "You know, things hit so fast here that I don't want you to be a three days' walk away from us." So they kept me at home and schooled me instead of sending me to the school that the mission had established for their children". Will defer to Tim and you on sources. PumpkinSky talk 01:00, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- I fixed the three-day walk to school sentence. I like your fix to the "her" issue! I think the flipping of the phrases in the hook is fine. So I formally propose
- ALT2: ... that Montana State University educator and artist Frances Senska trained several internationally known ceramic artists although she herself had just two academic quarters of training in ceramics?
- Tim1965 (talk) 13:43, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
ALT2 taken, thanks, wikilinked ceramic artist the first time, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:10, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
