- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by 97198 (talk) 12:04, 20 October 2019 (UTC)
| DYK toolbox |
|---|
Eagle Woman
Eagle Woman
... that the Sioux's first and only female chief, Eagle Woman (pictured), was called "the most noted Indian woman of all the western Indian nations", aside from Sacagawea? Source: 1ALT1:... that the Sioux's first and only female chief, Eagle Woman (pictured), helped her people adapt after they were forced onto reservations? Source: "When the Sioux War ended in the early 1880s, Eagle Woman again played an instrumental role in easing the transition to reservation living for her people." 1- ALT2:... that Eagle Woman (pictured), the first woman to become a chief among the Sioux, helped her people adapt after they were forced onto reservations? Source: "When the Sioux War ended in the early 1880s, Eagle Woman again played an instrumental role in easing the transition to reservation living for her people." 1 "Because these tribes were giving up their way of life, Mrs. Galpin adopted a new mission: “to help the Sioux to learn and to adapt.”" 2
- ALT3:
... that Eagle Woman (pictured), the first woman to become a chief among the Sioux, was called "the most noted Indian woman of all the western Indian nations", aside from Sacagawea?Source: 1
- Reviewed: (in progress)
- Comment: I think this article should be reviewed by someone who knows the right words for native/indigenous issues before DYK goes through. Also not sure about the hooks.
Created by Originalmess (talk). Self-nominated at 18:42, 21 August 2019 (UTC).
- General eligibility:
- New enough:
- Long enough:
- Other problems:
Policy compliance:
- Adequate sourcing:
- Neutral:
- ? I agree that a culturally-sensitive review is desirable before release. - Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:
Hook eligibility:
- Cited: - Issues for ALT and ALT1: "first and only female chief" - the source states "the only woman to become a chief of the Sioux" but dates to 1986, so it is possible someone else has become a female chief since then. "first" would be acceptable based on the source cited. Issues for ALT: "the most noted Indian woman of all the western Indian nations" - the source refers to her as "Matilda Parkin", which appears to be the same person as "Matilda Galpin" and "Eagle Woman", but this "Matilda Parkin" naming of her is not mentioned in the Wikipedia article. 3) inconsistent spellings of "Sacagawea" (Wiki link name), "Sacajawea" (DYK nom) and "Sakakawea" (Eagle Woman article, source cited): use Sakakawea in article & DYK to resolve. Further review of ALT1: "adapt" is supported by the cited source.
- Interesting:
QPQ: 
- ?
Overall: 
Created on August 15, nominated August 21, 2019; Earwig does not report significant copyvios. QPQ pending. I agree that a culturally-sensitive review is desirable before release. Hooks need work. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 20:27, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
- I think the phrase "chief of the Sioux" might be misunderstood to mean leadership over all the Sioux, but I'm not sure what a good alternative phrasing would be. Kim Post (talk) 14:00, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
- I've rephrased the sentence to read "the first woman to become a chief among the Sioux" to address this. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 14:22, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry about the late response, I should be free enough to do more editing/look for someone to do a culturally sensitive review a bit later tonight. Thanks for the rephrasing, that's definitely clearer for readers who don't know the Sioux had/have multiple chiefs at once. originalmesshow u doin that busta rhyme? 18:47, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
- Added new hooks using Mary Mark Ockerbloom's phrasing. Does it sound hookier starting with "first woman" or with "Eagle Woman"? originalmesshow u doin that busta rhyme? 19:36, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
Full new review needed; the article has been expanded and had many edits in September. Note the prior requests for a culturally sensitive review. Thanks to whoever takes this on. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:09, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
Hi Originalmess and GreenMeansGo (and any other editors who have worked on this article) - I am reading it before possibly reviewing it, and noting a few queries.
- In the info box, Eagle Woman's first husband is named as Henri Picotte. In the text of the article, his name is given as Honore Picotte. The sources I've looked at ([1], [2], [3], [4], [5]) all name him as Honore Picotte (actually, two have the accent on the e which I would expect in the French name Honoré). Is Henri a mistake, or are there other sources which give that name? If so, it would probably be good to mention it with reference to the sources.
Done
- In the info box, Eagle Woman's first husband is named as Henri Picotte. In the text of the article, his name is given as Honore Picotte. The sources I've looked at ([1], [2], [3], [4], [5]) all name him as Honore Picotte (actually, two have the accent on the e which I would expect in the French name Honoré). Is Henri a mistake, or are there other sources which give that name? If so, it would probably be good to mention it with reference to the sources.
- Eagle Woman's Lakota name is given in the article as Waŋblí Ayútepiwiŋ, which this source [6] has, with a morphemic gloss. Given that this seems a more lingustically aware source, I expect that it's a more accurate representation - but other spellings are found, and I think should be mentioned (eg in a footnote) - "Wambdi Autepewin" in [7] and [8], and "Wambli Autepewin" in [9]. Done
- Eagle Woman's Lakota name is given in the article as Waŋblí Ayútepiwiŋ, which this source [6] has, with a morphemic gloss. Given that this seems a more lingustically aware source, I expect that it's a more accurate representation - but other spellings are found, and I think should be mentioned (eg in a footnote) - "Wambdi Autepewin" in [7] and [8], and "Wambli Autepewin" in [9].
- I'll probably have some more queries/suggestions, which I'll add as I read. RebeccaGreen (talk) 15:38, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for looking over things RebeccaGreen. Let us know if you find anything else that needs fixing. GMGtalk 16:58, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
- A couple more queries, Originalmess and GreenMeansGo and others:
- In the Early life section is the sentence "Such marriages proved mutually beneficial: for Native women, marrying a trader elevated status with the added benefits of access to goods, while for traders, the marriage improved trade relations with their tribes." Do you have a source for this? Is it saying that Native women had elevated status among their tribes by marrying traders, or elevated status among Europeans? In "improved trade relations with their tribes", does that mean their wives' tribes? It sounds a bit as if it's the traders' tribes, but I don't think that can be the intended meaning. Done
- In the Diplomacy section, the first para says that her children were given a "formal" education. The source says a "good" education - I presume that both "formal" and "good" here mean a European education? I think it might be better to say that. Done
- In the Diplomacy section, the fourth para ends with "The Galpins negotiated for the release of the captives upon reaching Fort LaFramboise, and a party was dispatched to ransom the two women and four children." This seems to be the first mention of any captives, so it would be good to give some more information here. Done
- If we use a hook which refers to her as a chief, I think we will need to say "credited as the first woman to become a chief among the Sioux". Two sources ([10], [11]) call her a chief - others say she was influential and "known as a woman of honor in both Native American Indian and white societies for her attempts at peaceful compromise between these two different ways of life" [12], a "peace activist who was a strong advocate of the Teton (or Western Sioux) people" [13] - and I note that some articles about other individual chiefs (eg Red Cloud) use the word 'leader' much more often than the word 'chief', and that the relevant categories also use the word leader ("Category:Lakota leaders", "Category:Female Native American leaders"). Done
- I think that her mediation and peace advocacy would make a good hook too, and also her work as a tradesperson and refusal to close her business. Would you like to write some alternative hooks?
- In the Early life section is the sentence "Such marriages proved mutually beneficial: for Native women, marrying a trader elevated status with the added benefits of access to goods, while for traders, the marriage improved trade relations with their tribes." Do you have a source for this? Is it saying that Native women had elevated status among their tribes by marrying traders, or elevated status among Europeans? In "improved trade relations with their tribes", does that mean their wives' tribes? It sounds a bit as if it's the traders' tribes, but I don't think that can be the intended meaning.
- I'm still reading, will come back if I have more comments or queries! Cheers, RebeccaGreen (talk) 04:37, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks again for all the detailed analysis. If no one else has time to correct everything I will surely do so, but I'm afraid that my schedule probably won't allow me to do any in-depth editing for the next couple of weeks. Anyway WP:TIND right? GMGtalk 15:02, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, that's fine - it was nominated only just over a month ago, so is by no means the oldest DYK nomination! RebeccaGreen (talk) 15:19, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
- I'll get to it now! Including thinking about alternative hooks, especially since there's so much more material now. originalmesshow u doin that busta rhyme? 20:51, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
- On the verbiage for the hooks - it seems like "leader" is preferred over "chief" by people who do more editing on Sioux articles. However, I think the general audience would find "chief" hookier; it seems like different tribes use chief vs leader and that's not a known thing, so maybe in the hook we can use "chief" and link it to Sioux#Leadership to clarify? originalmesshow u doin that busta rhyme? 22:49, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
- Hi again originalmess and GMG, I have read more of the article, and have some further queries.
- At the end of the second para of the 'Black Hills Gold Rush' section, it says 'Following the meeting, Eagle Woman was made a chief "for her heroism in saving the lives of the Black Hills commission" '. This quote is from A Sioux Chronicle (1956), which starts "She had been made a chief by her own people in 1875 for her heroism ...". Another source, Lakota Portraits: Lives of the Legendary Plains People (2011), quotes a New York Herald reporter present at the 1875 meeting as writing that 'the Hunkpapas were "led by the prophetess and real chieftainess [sic], Mrs. Galpin, a civilized and educated lady.' The 2011 writer goes on to say that the 1875 reporter, as with other white commentators, increased their praise of Eagle Woman the more she defended white civilisation, and wrote things like "there is nothing in her dress or countenance indicating Indian". I have found that New York Herald report (clipped [14]), and it has a sub-heading 'The Story of a Chieftainess', and a section heading 'The Indians' Chieftainess'. I do wonder about both whether she was "made a chief" in 1875, when it was clear that she had influence and was respected before that, and whether it was for "saving the lives of the Black Hills commission", which I presume the white commissioners, reporters and historians were more interested in than the Indian tribes who were fighting to retain their land. It seems to me that perhaps she was called a chief (or chieftainess), in 1875, by the white reporter (and perhaps other white people present at the meeting). Finding a contemporary Lakota or Hunkpapa perspective on her role is probably very difficult, but I think it would be more accurate to describe what she did - the article is probably accurate in saying "After the Brulés the Yancktonais and Uncapapas appeared. Most of them were unarmed. They dismounted .... and then advanced toward the canopy, led by ..... Mrs. Galpin .... When these Indians were drawn up on the east side of the council ground, Mrs. Galpin standing at their front ...". So I would suggest, instead of saying that she was made a chief, change the sentence "In a conference in 1875, she accompanied a delegation aimed at settling the dispute." to "In a conference in 1875 aimed at settling the dispute, she led the Grand River delegation, most of whom were unarmed." (So that is taking the sentence about leading the delegation and placing it in the first sentence about the conference.) Done
- I am not sure how many credited Eagle Woman with avoiding violence at that conference - that 1875 newspaper article describes several others who played an important part, including Young Man Afraid of His Horses. So, as well as leaving out that she was made a chief, perhaps say something like her role in averting violence that day has been recognized? Done
- The clipped article also says "The commission have discussed the propriety of recognizing him [Young Man Afraid of His Horses] as the principal chief of the Ogallalas", which indicates that white leaders had a role in deciding who they recognized and negotiated with as chiefs, which may not have been the same as those recognized as chiefs within their own tribes. For that reason, I don't think that the sentence "She was also the Sioux's only female chief" should stand as it is. It seems that she was the only Sioux woman that white people recognized as a leader at that time, but how do we know that she was the only one the Sioux recognized, then, before or later? Instead, it could again say something like "She was credited as the only woman to become a chief among the Sioux at that time", or something like that. Done
- I also think the sentence "This treaty made her the only woman to sign a treaty with the United States." needs editing - something like "She is believed to be the only Native American woman to sign a treaty with the United States", or "She is believed to be the only woman to sign a treaty with the United States in the wars between the United States and Native Americans". I expect that treaties have been signed with the US by women heads of state, foreign ministers, etc, in modern times. Done
- At the end of the second para of the 'Black Hills Gold Rush' section, it says 'Following the meeting, Eagle Woman was made a chief "for her heroism in saving the lives of the Black Hills commission" '. This quote is from A Sioux Chronicle (1956), which starts "She had been made a chief by her own people in 1875 for her heroism ...". Another source, Lakota Portraits: Lives of the Legendary Plains People (2011), quotes a New York Herald reporter present at the 1875 meeting as writing that 'the Hunkpapas were "led by the prophetess and real chieftainess [sic], Mrs. Galpin, a civilized and educated lady.' The 2011 writer goes on to say that the 1875 reporter, as with other white commentators, increased their praise of Eagle Woman the more she defended white civilisation, and wrote things like "there is nothing in her dress or countenance indicating Indian". I have found that New York Herald report (clipped [14]), and it has a sub-heading 'The Story of a Chieftainess', and a section heading 'The Indians' Chieftainess'. I do wonder about both whether she was "made a chief" in 1875, when it was clear that she had influence and was respected before that, and whether it was for "saving the lives of the Black Hills commission", which I presume the white commissioners, reporters and historians were more interested in than the Indian tribes who were fighting to retain their land. It seems to me that perhaps she was called a chief (or chieftainess), in 1875, by the white reporter (and perhaps other white people present at the meeting). Finding a contemporary Lakota or Hunkpapa perspective on her role is probably very difficult, but I think it would be more accurate to describe what she did - the article is probably accurate in saying "After the Brulés the Yancktonais and Uncapapas appeared. Most of them were unarmed. They dismounted .... and then advanced toward the canopy, led by ..... Mrs. Galpin .... When these Indians were drawn up on the east side of the council ground, Mrs. Galpin standing at their front ...". So I would suggest, instead of saying that she was made a chief, change the sentence "In a conference in 1875, she accompanied a delegation aimed at settling the dispute." to "In a conference in 1875 aimed at settling the dispute, she led the Grand River delegation, most of whom were unarmed." (So that is taking the sentence about leading the delegation and placing it in the first sentence about the conference.)
- Have you thought any more about alternative hooks? Regards, RebeccaGreen (talk) 06:26, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
- Also wondering if there is a reason not to include the photo of Eagle Woman, which is in the public domain and is, I think, a strong image? RebeccaGreen (talk) 08:43, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
- I think it just wasn't in the article when I nominated it (which looked like this at that point). Good catch, I'll add it to the nomination. originalmessbusta rhyme 02:37, 2 October 2019 (UTC) Done
- I think it just wasn't in the article when I nominated it (which looked like this at that point). Good catch, I'll add it to the nomination. originalmessbusta rhyme 02:37, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
- RebeccaGreen I think the points about who's recognized as a chief and who isn't are very important to clarify - I'm willing to email some of the modern day Lakota associated with Standing Rock to see if they have anything, but in the case that there's only oral history (sent over email), would I be able to cite that in an article? Thanks for doing this review with such thoroughness and patience btw. originalmessbusta rhyme 06:41, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
- Also wondering if there is a reason not to include the photo of Eagle Woman, which is in the public domain and is, I think, a strong image? RebeccaGreen (talk) 08:43, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry to drop in and out of this discussion. @Originalmess and RebeccaGreen: Where are we at as far as what's been addressed thus far and what still remains to be fixed? GMGtalk 12:35, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
- Hi GMGtalk, that's OK, I was aware from your page that you were away. My earlier queries were all addressed, except possibilities for alternative hooks. My later points (posted on 30 September 2019 under "I have read more of the article, and have some further queries"), are still to be discussed and worked on. Originalmess has suggested emailing Lakota groups or people at Standing Rock about her and how she is perceived. I think that would be a very useful way to get an idea of how to represent the descriptions of her and the events she took part in, most authentically, from (a) Native American perspective(s). There is a published 2011 source, Lakota Portraits: Lives of the Legendary Plains People, which, as I said above, talks about the Black Hills meeting in 1875 and the way a white newspaper reporter described Eagle Woman as a chief or chieftainess (see my comments above). The author of that 2011 book doesn't actually call her a chief, though it's clear from his description that she was a strong and influential mediator and businesswoman. So that's about where we're at. Any help you can give will be much appreciated! RebeccaGreen (talk) 13:02, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
- Okay, so, some notes on the "chief" issue. First, far-and-away the best extant source on Eagle Woman seems to be the two-part series by John S. Gray, which is itself, in small or large part, of of the principle sources for much of the later writings about her. In Gray's words specifically
Mrs. Galpin's peace-keeping efforts brought her recognition as a chief
(pg. 16 on the right column). True, it doesn't say recognition from whom, and that may truly be more of a statement of who the whites recognized as worthy of their attention.
- So that's where we queue this source. While it looks very much like "some website" the bio pic is actually written by Lakota historian LaDonna Brave Bull Allard, and is kindof our guiding light here on the Lakota perspective. She says in no uncertain terms
Matilda Picotte Galpin, also known as Eagle Woman, was the only female Sioux chief.
I'm not sure we don't run afoul of some original research if we try to further qualify the unqualified statement of the former Standing Rock historical preservation coordinator, who doesn't really seem to feel the need to hedge her own bets on the issue. GMGtalk 12:47, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
- OK, thanks, I'll have a look at your edits. I think it would be useful to say upfront that LaDonna Brave Bull Allard credits Eagle Woman as the only female Sioux chief. That gives a clear, contemporary source for it. RebeccaGreen (talk) 16:04, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
- As far as a hook, assuming we're comfortable with all the facts there:
- ALT4:... that Eagle Woman (pictured), is credited as the the only woman to become a chief among the Sioux, and the first woman to sign a treaty with the United States?
- GMGtalk 16:16, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
- Hi GMGtalk and originalmess, I'm sorry I haven't had time to read through the article today - hopefully tomorrow. I mentioned above that I think that her mediation and peace advocacy, and also her work as a trader and refusal to close her business, would make good hooks too, as they give examples of her strength of character, and it's useful to have several hooks for promoters and reviewing admins to select from. Would you like to write some around those facts? RebeccaGreen (talk) 13:13, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
Hmm...just spit balling:
- ALT5:... that the "utterly unflappable" Eagle Woman (pictured) won an 1870s trade dispute against the brother of US President Ulysses S. Grant, who tried to shut down her business?
- ALT6:... that Eagle Woman (pictured) was inducted into the South Dakota Hall of Fame for her efforts at peaceful compromise between the Sioux and whites?
GMGtalk 19:01, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
| General: Article is new enough and long enough |
|---|
| Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems |
|---|
|
| Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation |
|---|
|
| Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px. |
|---|
|
| QPQ: Done. |
Approving ALT2, ALT4, ALT5 and ALT6. As one of the editors who has built the article points out, a key source is Lakota historian LaDonna Brave Bull Allard. Issues relating to language used and assumptions made by earlier, non-Native American writers have, I hope, been adequately addressed. Re QPQ: The nom now has 5 DYK credits, and did a QPQ for the 5th, which was nominated after this article but approved before it, so the review of Template:Did you know nominations/Jennie Smillie Robertson can be used here. RebeccaGreen (talk) 11:09, 19 October 2019 (UTC)