Talk:Yahweh

OT attestation of syncretic practices

I feel like it should be noted in the article, that the syncretic practices described (worship of Yahweh polytheistically; sacrifices outside of Temple) are attested in the Old Testament. They are described as a departure from the original doctrine, something that was existent and even widespread at times in the land but considered blasphemous by the "righteous" priests/leaders.

I understand why non-Christian sources could be skeptical about this if these texts were written post-Josiah's reformation. But in light of the lack of substantial evidence for a Canaanite origin of the deity (i.e. a direct contradiction of the biblical claim), it seems worth mentioning the version of events attested by the OT authors. Thanuhrei (talk) 01:51, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

@Thanuhrei: The Bible is not a history book, and certainly not mainstream history. See WP:RSPSCRIPTURE. And probably Yahweh was imported by Shasu pastoralists. Yahweh was a "divine warrior from the southern region associated with Seir, Edom, Paran and Teman". Copy/paste from Yahweh.

And even if we assume we don't know where the Israelites got their god Yahweh from, they certainly did not get him from Abraham or Moses.

The academic consensus is that Yahweh was originally a Pagan god, Pagan meaning polytheistic. tgeorgescu (talk) 03:34, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm not asking for the consensus shown in the article to be changed, and I'm not asking Wikipedia to view the Bible as infallible. Please don't take me that way.

But, as a book that probably dates in part to as far back as Josiah's reign (see "Dating the Bible etc.), it seems that the Torah would at least be a source to consider when interpreting archaeology from near that time.

I'm proposing, at most, a sentence or two clarifying that the pagan practices described are attested in the Jewish tradition.

Thanuhrei (talk) 14:05, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm not asking on the authority of the Bible as the Judaeo-Christian holy book, I'm asking on the authority of sections of the Old Testament, which date in whole or in part to the Kingdom period, a time in recent cultural memory of these practices existing. Thanuhrei (talk) 14:17, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

@Thanuhrei:

Between the 10th century and the beginning of their exile in 586 there was polytheism as normal religion all throughout Israel; only afterwards things begin to change and very slowly they begin to change. I would say it is only correct for the last centuries, maybe only from the period of the Maccabees, that means the second century BC, so in the time of Jesus of Nazareth it is true, but for the time before it, it is not true.

— Prof. Dr. Herbert Niehr, Tübingen University, Bible's Buried Secrets, Did God have A Wife, BBC, 2011

But to sum up, it's clear that the biblical patriarchs and matriarchs are not strict Yahwists, as we will come to understand that term. The P and the E sources preserve this insight; and they preserve it in their insistence that the Patriarchs worshiped God as El, but at the time of the Exodus, God revealed himself as Yahweh. There's an interesting passage in the book of Joshua, Joshua 24:14-15. Joshua was the successor to Moses. He presents the Israelites with the following choice: "Now therefore revere the Lord," using the word Yahweh, "revere Yahweh, and serve him with undivided loyalty. Put away the gods that your forefathers served beyond the Euphrates and in Egypt"--put away the gods your forefathers served beyond the Euphrates and in Egypt--"and serve Yahweh. / Choose this day which ones you are going to serve, but I in my household will serve Yahweh," serve the Lord. Only later would a Yahweh-only party polemicize against and seek to suppress certain… what came to be seen as undesirable elements of Israelite-Judean religion, and these elements would be labeled Canaanite, as a part of a process of Israelite differentiation. But what appears in the Bible as a battle between Israelites, pure Yahwists, and Canaanites, pure polytheists, is indeed better understood as a civil war between Yahweh-only Israelites, and Israelites who are participating in the cult of their ancestors.

— Christie Hayes, Open Yale Courses

Niehr speaks about the truth of the sentence "Ancient Jews were monotheists".

And, again, WP:RSPSCRIPTURE: only modern Bible scholars may interpret the Bible for us. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:20, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Can't edit but have a question regarding translation

Yeah I am just curiouse because "adonoy" is translated as "my lords" and while "lords" is acceptable (as ooposed to "masters") i'm pretty sure the word is singular, meaning the translation should be "my lord" CarryingTheMeme (talk) 19:12, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Shouldn't that be Adonai, as the plural form of Adon (lord)? That is the etymology of the name Adonis. Dimadick (talk) 21:51, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Tentative inaccuracy rectification (republished on the account of justified article correction)

(Scroll to the bottom to observe my requests, and behold the reasoning for this scripture.)

”“Say to the Israelites: ‘Any Israelite or any foreigner residing in Israel who sacrifices any of his children to Molek is to be put to death. The members of the community are to stone him. I myself will set my face against him and will cut him off from his people; for by sacrificing his children to Molek, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. If the members of the community close their eyes when that man sacrifices one of his children to Molek and if they fail to put him to death, I myself will set my face against him and his family and will cut them off from their people together with all who follow him in prostituting themselves to Molek.“ ‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭20‬:‭2‬-‭5‬ ‭NIV‬‬ https://bible.com/bible/111/lev.20.2-5.NIV

”He sacrificed his own son in the fire, practiced divination, sought omens, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the Lord, arousing his anger.“ ‭‭2 Kings‬ ‭21‬:‭6‬ ‭NIV‬‬ https://bible.com/bible/111/2ki.21.6.NIV

”Ahaz was twenty years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem sixteen years. Unlike David his father, he did not do what was right in the eyes of the Lord. He followed the ways of the kings of Israel and also made idols for worshiping the Baals. He burned sacrifices in the Valley of Ben Hinnom and sacrificed his children in the fire, engaging in the detestable practices of the nations the Lord had driven out before the Israelites. He offered sacrifices and burned incense at the high places, on the hilltops and under every spreading tree. Therefore the Lord his God delivered him into the hands of the king of Aram. The Arameans defeated him and took many of his people as prisoners and brought them to Damascus. He was also given into the hands of the king of Israel, who inflicted heavy casualties on him.“ ‭‭2 Chronicles‬ ‭28‬:‭1‬-‭5‬ ‭NIV‬‬ https://bible.com/bible/111/2ch.28.1-5.NIV

”They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I never commanded—nor did it enter my mind—that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.“ ‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭32‬:‭35‬ ‭NIV‬‬ https://bible.com/bible/111/jer.32.35.NIV

“Some critics of the Bible point to the story of Abraham, who laid his son Isaac on an altar and prepared to sacrifice him as directed by God (Genesis 22:1-14). However, in this case, God was testing the obedience and faith of Abraham. God stopped him from actually following through and provided a ram as a substitute sacrifice.” “Today, child sacrifice is practiced throughout the world. There has been a resurgence of child sacrifice in Uganda. Witch doctors have been implicated in the mutilation and death of children who were killed in an effort to bring good fortune and wealth to those willing to pay for it. There is also a correlation between child sacrifice and modern-day abortion. Unprecedented numbers of children have been “sacrificed” at the hands of abortionists for the sake of convenience, immorality, or pride. Hundreds of thousands of babies have been killed so that their parents can maintain a certain lifestyle. God hates “hands that shed innocent blood” (Proverbs 6:17), and we can be sure that God will judge this horrendous sin” -GotQuestions, https://www.gotquestions.org/child-sacrifice.html

I implore you with the love of God to read the scriptures once more, if or if it is not true that your collective are only purporting that you have before read them (I say this for your benefit). God Almighty relentlessly opposes all child sacrifice (excluding His very own Son), and it is highly unlikely that the Israelites of that particular time had sacrificed infants to Yahweh, considering that they had received the ordinance otherwise.

What is perhaps the most reliable and significant testimonial to this, is this passage:

”“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.“ ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5‬:‭43‬-‭48‬ ‭NIV‬‬ https://bible.com/bible/111/mat.5.43-48.NIV

”For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.“ ‭‭Romans‬ ‭6‬:‭23‬ ‭NIV‬‬

The uncertainty in regards to child sacrifice to Yahweh is unnecessary, there was no (at least major, perhaps by some renegades) child sacrifice to Yahweh.

This is an appeal for the reconfiguration of a portion of the article, as I am incapable of editing it myself. RepentandbelieveinJesusChrist11 (talk) 16:32, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

"Molek" is usually rendered Moloch in English. And it seen as a divine title of the pagan god Yahweh, instead of an independent deity:

• • "Because the name "Moloch" is almost always accompanied by the definite article in Hebrew, it is possible that it is a title meaning "the king", as it is sometimes translated in the Septuagint. In the twentieth century, the philosopher Martin Buber proposed that "Moloch" referred to "Melekh Yahweh". A similar view was later expressed by T. Römer (1999). Brian Schmidt, however, argues that the mention of Baal in Jeremiah 32:35 suggests that "the ruler" could have instead referred to Baal." Dimadick (talk) 16:38, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Gotquestions is not WP:RS, it's WP:CB. tgeorgescu (talk) 16:39, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps this deserves an explanation: even a broken clock is right twice a day. So, even if Gotquestions got a few things right, it still does not comply with WP:RS. tgeorgescu (talk) 17:59, 15 April 2024 (UTC)