Talk:Vojnomir

Some dubious sentences

The offensive was successful and the Avars were driven out of Croatia.

It's not actually clear where borders of Croatia were at the time, if there were any fixed borders, and that Avars are driven, since some later sources say that there are "still Avars among Croats". And Annales don't mention Croatia at all.

In return for the help of Charlemagne, Vojnomir was obliged to recognize French sovereignty, convert to Christianity and have his territory named as Pannonian Croatia.

I suppose "Frankish", and not "French". The last thing, "his territory named as Pannonian Croatia" is without grounds, no territory was named "Pannonian Croatia" at the time. In fact, from 810 the ruler of the territory was named "Liudewitus, dux Pannoniae inferioris" (Annales regni Francorum).

The text should be reworked. dnik ► 10:03, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Proposing the renaming of the article

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page not moved. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 19:44, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

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Vojnomir of Pannonian Croatia → Vojnomir The Slav —

Current name of the article is not neutral, but partial. There are no serious proofs that Vojnomir was croat (- aka slavonian) ruler (as there are no serious proof that he was a carniolian (aka slovenian) ruler. To assure neutrality, I propose the only historical name: Wonomyrus Sclavus/ Vojnomir the Slav (found in the Annales regni Francorum). -Bostjan46 (talk) 21:04, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Just for information: even on the croatian wikipedia there is a neutral naming.-Bostjan46 (talk) 21:42, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Bostjan46, you are wrong. There are lots of good english secundary sources which claim that Vojnomir was ruler of Pannonian Croatia, which doesn't exclude that he ruled over all/part of Carolina within Frankish support. In fact, Carolina was a integral part of Frankish Empire, and Pannonian Croatia was not (Franks did made themselves overlords over Pannonia briefly, but Pannonian Croatia was not incorporated into Frankish Empire). I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish here. Your actions so far are:

• You have made a new artice which was content fork
• All your edits on english wikipedia are related only to Vojnomir
• After discussion on talk page of your content fork article, you finally redirected Voynomir the Slav to Vojnomir of Pannonian Croatia.
• Than you have made a massive change which looks like original research, occasionally supported by non english sources.
• Based on only your bias edits you have made a move proposal
• I wonder, what is your next step? Regards, Kebeta (talk) 08:53, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

On the appropriate name of Wonomyro Sclavo

Current name of the article is still partial. The arguments in favor of present situation of Croat prince could not be based on the language, but on the methodology.

Anyway: 100 years ago Wonomiro was claimed to be »Slovenian« by Kurze and Simpson (look in Kos Milko (1902).Gradivo za zgodovino Slovencev v srednjem veku . Ljubljana, Lenova družba. Page 323. In the Speculum, V ol. 35, No. 4, 1960, Mediaeval Academy of America, JSTOR (Organization) it is written: Abel and Simson think that he was probably a Slovene, largely on the basis of his hostility to the Avars and his apparent dependence on ... Leibniz' supposition that Wonomir was Karantanian Slav… This is partial, too. Nobody knows who Wonomiro actually was…

Expressions like Croat prince or Slovenian duke could also be disputed on the ground of modern nationalism and its mythologies. Slovenian as naming for the nations is the term from 19th century and in Pannonia ethnonym Croat appears much later, even centuries after the rule of Tomislav…

(and Carniola (from Carnium) is not Carolina…) --Bostjan46 (talk) 16:34, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Some answers about attempts of my disqualification by Kebeta (talk):

• the new artice was not content fork. It would be so if the naming of Vojnomir would be neutral.
• All my edits on english wikipedia were related only to Vojnomir at that time. Actually I work on slovenian wikipedia mainly. Anyway- quality of articles is more important than quantity.
• After discussion on talk page, I finally redirected Voynomir the Slav to Vojnomir of Pannonian Croatia.
• But then I had to made a massive change, which does not look like original research, because it is supported by good non english historical sources. We are not living in nationalsocialistic regime and non english sources are relevant sources (I hope this is true even on english wikipedia?).
• Based on good argumentation I have made a move proposal. If there is no certainty about the origin of Vojnomir (was he Pannonian, Carniolian, Istrian or even Carantanian?),how could one name the article Vojnomir of Pannonian Croatia? It was you, Kebeta, who has made a campaign to merge those articles. Do not cry and shout, when the consequences are revealed.
• And my next step? I will mainly leave the article of Vojnomir "of Pannonian Croatia (from the perspective of the 9.th century- what is this anyway??)" to be further developed by purely non-Bostjan46-s. If the community here wants to preserve this inadequate name, it is fine with me. I have some other work to do.

Regards, --Bostjan46 (talk) 20:15, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Croatian duke!?

This is dubious. The [1] states: "The Middle Ages are as clear as can be as to the nonexistence of a Croat ethnicity." --Eleassar ^{my talk} 08:05, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

about that book, see [2] 88.207.13.23 (talk) 23:01, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Just in case that URL goes dead in the future - it seems that in 2011, Speculum published Croatian historian Neven Budak's review of John V. A. Fine Jr.'s When Ethnicity Did Not Matter in the Balkans, one that is critical of Fine's concept of medieval identity.

In any case, google books doesn't seem to find the string "Vojnomir" in Fine's book, but it finds "Wonomyro Sclavo in Pannonias" and internally references that to Croatian historian Lujo Margetić's 1977 article. It doesn't discuss that particular ruler, but on the next page it does elaborate on the Frankish Annals' general avoidance of the term "Croat" in favor of "Slav". --Joy [shallot] (talk) 09:32, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved because it was a technicality, the two terms redirected to one another and there is no active dispute about that Joy [shallot] (talk) 08:56, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

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Vojnomir of Pannonian Croatia → Vojnomir –

"Vojnomir" Primary topic. Google books shows "Vojnomir of Pannonian Croatia" 1 hit.Zoupan 02:22, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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