Talk:Vasojevići/Archive 1

Archive 1

Montenegrin

It is the fact that montenegrin are Serbs, montenegrin as a ethnic and language term is nowdays political stuff. Montenegrin as a term is equal to hercegovac, krajisnik. Montenegrins always considered themselves Serbs as well as their rulers. All montenegrins are considered themselves Serbs until 1945. How it is possible that two brothers from the same mother and father today, one is considering himself Serb the other montenegrin. That is ideological/party stuff not ethnic because ethnic difference between montenegrins and other Serbs never existed. Talking about Vasojevic Albanian origin is nonsense. Vasojevici are only true and pure Serbs who speak the Serbian language The montenegrins active on Wikipedia are all of non-serb origin, calling themselves montenegrins by blood, very strange and provocative. "In Montenegro live only true and pure Serbs who speak Serbian" (Montenegrin geography textbook from 1911) "Tell the Austrian representative to tell his Emperor, if God would turn him around to do good, to let Serbdom unite: Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, Serbia and Old Serbia, and let that become the Serb Kingdom" - Marko Miljanov — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ranbo60 (talk • contribs) 23:26, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Unneccesary signs

I see no reason why "cleanup" and "references" signs are assigned to the article... The article is quite logically structured, there are no unsubstantiated claims (at least I see none), reliable sources are placed in the reference section... so can anyone point out the problem with this article? I will wait a few weeks and if nobody provides any justification for these signes I will remove them both. 217.153.207.18 (talk) 12:13, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I hail from the kraq keqi clan and we have never been serbian but only albanian,the Vasojevići clan vas keqi was assimulated in around 1700s to 1800s,these assimulated albanians still use the lahuta witch is used in all northern albanian tribes,,krasnich resisted and fled from north albanian reigion because of the assimulation was happening to other albanian tribes,,now the Vasojevići clan are our bitter foes and have been since they turned slav their are 4 other tribes that also resisted the assimulation who are related to Vasojevići tirbe that remained albanian,albanians of these tribes can trace back of whom the hoti tribe is and the assimulated albanians — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.31.197.149 (talk) 20:35, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Vandalism

Please, before you make any significant changes DISCUSS it first. By "significant changes" I mean for exaple changing all words from Serb, Serbian etc to Montenegrin etc. Couple of people have made a real effort to write this article so pay respect - CONSULT. thanks in advance 217.153.207.18 (talk) 16:04, 3 March 2008 (UTC) Nikola

Again, there is vandalism going on here... May I ask (repeting the above post) to discuss changes PRIOR to the change? Otherwise it will be reverted. Simple as that... 89.77.106.218 (talk) 23:43, 18 March 2008 (UTC) The times and dates the are wrong and does not conclude anything with what this page says,The krasnich clan when fleeing fled from north albania to settle in kosova areas of peja,rahovec are still albanians they turned muslim in the 1800s when they came to kosova before that they were a intire catholic albanian tribe as all of the hoti tribes are and were — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.31.197.149 (talk) 20:40, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Albanian ancestory

Vasojevci are the only genetically real Ilirs in Montenegro. They are not serbs, they are more close to Albanians. They only have christian orthodox religion and they speak montenegrin, but naturally they are Albanians. They only want to be serbians, it's their complex attitude to life, but they will never be.

Who told you that Vasojevici are Albanians? Such statement would not be appreciated at all by them - as they consider them "Serbs living in Montenegro". Have you ever read anything about their history? There has been some kind of project, during last 20 years by one historian who published that Vasojevics are actually Nemanjic descendants (and it would be insult if you say that Nemanjic Royal House aren't Serbs). I have obtained Vasojevic's family tree, and I will soon publish it here - to prove you are wrong. But you weren't completely wrong, I must admit. Two wings of Vasojevic clan are Albanian Orthodox, but that doesn't mean that Vasojevici are Albanians! Do you know that brotherhood clans of Vasojevici are Piperi - one of the largest Montenegrin clans (they both have same ascendant - Vaso, unofficial son of Dusan the Emperor, and grand-grand son of King Vukan of Zeta), which is another proof Vasojevici, generally are not Albanians, but Serbs.

They are Albanians according to Miranda Vickers. She is a scholar, and does not beleive legends:

"In Montenegro entire tribes such as the Kuc, Bjellopavliq, Palabardha, Piprraj and Vasovic were assimilated; those who resisted assimilation retreated into the hills of what is now northern Albania." http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/v/vickers-serb.html

I am Vasojevic and I am Serb, as well as my father, my grandfather and my great-grandfather. Albanian minority doesn't even exist within Vasojevici clan and there is not one single Albanian in the world who is Vasojevic. -Novakovic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.101.141.84 (talk) 00:57, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

As written in the article, Vasojevici are mentioned for the first time in 1444 - that is undisputed. Yet another hundreds of years passed before Vasojevici were properly described in any written sources. Vickers claims that Albanian Vasojevici were being "assimilated" in the middle of XII century so her claim is clearly based on a very old word of mouth (presumably Albanian one). So here you go: she also believes in legends...

But seriously speaking:

- you have provided one unreferenced sentence (the author does not provide her source),

- from a book on Kosovo (not on Vasojevici or at least on Montenegro - Vasojevici are mentioned in that book once only!),

- that has been published in 1999 (book on Osetian history written during Russian intervention might be a little bit biased, don't you think?),

- written by a scholar that is so fond of Albanian history that even speaks Albanian...:)

On the other hand you have long list of books and sources on Vasojevici (see bibliography and references below), some of the more than 200 years old (e.g. Vasojevicki Zakon u Dvanaest Tocaka) many written by Vasojevici themselves (e.g. Cemovic, Vesovic) and nether even once (!) is this Albanian ancestry mentioned. Not only don't they mention Albanian ancestry but they even give probable names of Vasojevici ancestors back to the begining of XII c. (and that is before alleged "assimilation"): Vukan, Kostadin, Vasoje, Stevan, Kostadin, Vaso, Novak, Vujica... Have you noticed any Albanian names?;)

We will definitely need some more grounded sources to include information of Vasojevici Albanian ancestry into the article (not to mention crating a separate one-sentence chapter about this!;))

regards

Drmiko (talk) 20:28, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Slobodan Milosevic, Zeljko Raznatovic (Arkan), Karadjordje and his family was Albanians???? Why then the Albanians hate thise people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.112.251.67 (talk) 04:40, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Use native terms

I suggest that you don't use terms 'tribe' and 'clan' or 'bratherhood' since they may be misleading, but use native terms (Pleme and Bratstvo) instead. Please see discussion page at the article Serbian clans. In the way it is now, it is not clear if you speak of pleme or bratstvo, since you use both clan and tribe in English text. It would be also necessary to add refferences to some printed work. Bezvardis 19:54, 11 August 2006 (UTC) All you slavs from Vasojevići have no idea what was happening with albanian tribes and Vasojevićh when use assimulated use tryed to assimulate albanian tribes with use,,use are not native serb lol,hoti tribe was told of in the 1300s,i know a family pemati whom are related to slobadan malosovic they are from shkodra and are 100% albanian cathliocs,,,slobadan wanted to assimulate the muslims of krasnich in kosova because he belived they were serbs that turned muslim, but really it was catholics that turned muslim,,,the serb historian who came up with that vas keqi are of slav origion,it was proven to be not by other albanians whom no their culture an history — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.31.197.149 (talk) 20:46, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

who are montenegrins

just one thing. i am a "member" of vasojevic tribe and its not true that vasojevici consider themselves "serbs living in montenegro". we are both serbs AND montenegrins. my great grand father used to say that montenegrins are best serbs :) in response to the stupid claim that montenegrins are albanians - it seems that it is just a common albanian way of insulting serbs.. ("you are albanians as well, we are not in this shit alone"). indeed all people are related in one way or another - after all vikings genes are most common in.. czech republic :) nikola

True, Nikola. I am a Vasojevic also, and I consider myself Montenegrin in geographic and regional sense and it is my homeland identity, but Serb in ethnic and national sense. I am a Serb AND Montenegrin, Serb by ethnicity, language and nationality, and Montenegrin by my homeland and local customs and ways of Montenegro, which don't exist in other Serbian lands. -Novakovic.

I agree completely with you, Nikola! Sorry, it was my mistake - I written that when I spent several years out of touch with Montenegro. Now, when I spend a third of every year in Montenegro I completely agree with your grandfather's saying 'Montenegrins are the best Serbs'. Ziv bio! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.116.156.120 (talk) 10:53, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

contradiction

Some of these families are in contradiction / belong to other tribes especially CEKLIN. Would someone who know please clarify. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.124.181.143 (talk) 11:54, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

yes, you are right. i have fixed that. 89.77.106.218 00:17, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

?

It's not correct those in the first sentence (Vasojevici are one of the Seven Serb Clans)... Because, clan/tribe of Kuci are not only Serbs - the majority of them are members of Drekalovici part, which were Albanians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.222.1.122 (talk) 21:40, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Please, regarding claimed "Albanian ancestory" of Kuci refere to the article on Kuči. This is not the place to discuss validity of another article... And by the way what does it mean: "Drekalovici part, which were Albanians"? What are they now?;) 89.77.106.218 (talk) 23:39, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

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Original research

Documents, especially the letter of Ivan Radonjić from 1789, show that the Montenegrins were identified as Serbs, and that the Banjani, Kuči, Piperi, Bjelopavlići, Zećani, Vasojevići, Bratonožići were not identified as "Montenegrins" but only as Serb tribes. They were all mentioned only in a regional, geographical, and tribal manner, and never as an ethnic category.

• Information from the source: "Those letters don't just prove that Montenegrins are Serbs, they say much more, they say that Banjani, Kuči, Piperi, Bjelopavlići, Zećani, Vasojevići, Bratonožići are not Montenegrins." It is not mentioned here that Vasojevići are Serb tribe. The source says they are not Montenegrins and that Montenegrins are Serbs. Letter of Ivan Radonjić from 1789 say that all of us Serbs from Montenegro, Prizren, Vasojevići, Albania, Macedonia etc. There is no mention that Vasojevići are only Serb tribe. If this formulation from article is taken into account, this mean that Albanians are also Serbs. Thus, nor primary or secondary(claim of historian) source speak that Vasojevići are Serb tribe. Secondary source says they are not Montenegrins and primary letter say that Serbs are and from Vasojevići. The source does not say that Vasojevići are Serb tribe. Mikola22 (talk) 08:42, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

@Sadko: One more time that you understand: U prvom pismu Jovan Radonjić guvernadur kaže: "Sada mi svi Srbi Crnogorci molimo vašu carsku milost" u drugom piše: "Sada mi svi Srbi iz Crne gore, Hercegovine, Banjana, Drobnjaka, Kuča, Pipera, Bijelopavlića, Zete, Klimenata, Vasojevića, Bratonožića, Peći, Kosova, Albanije, Makedonije, pripadamo vašem veličanstvu..In the first letter, the Jovan Radonjić guvernadur says: "Now all Serb Montenegrins are begging your imperial mercy," in the second he writes: "Now all Serbs from Montenegro, Herzegovina, Banjani, Drobnjaci, Kuči, Piperi, Bijelopavlići, Zete, Klimenti, Vasojevići, Bratonozići, Peći, Kosovo, Albania, Macedonia, we belong to your majesty." Historian from the source: "Those letters don't just prove that Montenegrins are Serbs, they say much more, they say that Banjani, Kuči, Piperi, Bjelopavlići, Zećani, Vasojevići, Bratonožići are not Montenegrins."

• This is information from a source, where is mentioned "Serb tribes"? I told you that source does not mention this and we must not invent what the source says, it is OR. It is not written in the source. Show me where source say "were not identified as "Montenegrins" but only as "Serb tribes". Mikola22 (talk) 19:24, 1 August 2020 (UTC)