Talk:Valencian

Disambiguation page

I would like to create a disambiguation page in the same way as English, Spanish or Portuguese. I know there are lots of links that need to be corrected... As you can see, I and another user started doing that before being reverted, this should be completed at some point so it shouldn't be a problem to object to proceed to the creation of the Valencian disambiguation page. One reason to create this disambiguation page is the separation of Valencian language and Valencian people. IMO it isn't professional to have Valencian redirecting to the language and Valencians to the article that covers the native people of Valencia, the same term can't be split by its plural form, since Valencian is a also part of the people. Other terms involved is the Valencian national identity and the culture which could have a link. — User:Nuvolet ^(dis-me) 18:17, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

I'm correcting the links and all I can see the Valencian municipality articles are way too chaotic. The infobox is not uniform and the info is too messy sometimes. In my opinion, they need attention... It's sad to see there is not a more organised approach here, even the link Valencian by itself shows not many care too much about these topics. The language is another problem, there seems to be problems fully accepting Valencian and its diffusion. — User:Nuvolet ^(dis-me) 22:41, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

I support the change provided that it's done right - unless the term Valencian is most usually used in English to refer to the language, rather than anything else. In that case, the redirect should stay as it is (or, alternatively, Valencian language should be moved back here). Sol505000 (talk) 06:37, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Although it does make sense to make this a dab page as long as the language article is at "... language", I see that Valencian language was boldly moved from Valencian last year at the request of a now-banned user, who had a history of opening spurious RMs and RfDs. So that bold move needs to be evaluated by the community first, especially if the status of Valencian as a language is controversial. Nardog (talk) 11:52, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

I support turning Valencian a disambiguation page and leaving Valencian language as it is, this is because most reference books categorize Valencian as a language (mainly spoken by the Valencian people and sympathizers) and not anything else. Additionally, the term "Valencian" alone is ambiguous and would need clarification whether it means a person from Valencia or the language itself. — User:Nuvolet ^(dis-me) 22:11, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't think that is true. Valencian language in particular doesn't seem to support what you're saying. It's clearly a dialect of Catalan, the "language" part in its name is just that - a part of the name (cf. Croatian language, which isn't a language). It should really be Valencian dialect or Valencian Catalan, if truth be told (though, of course, we go by the common name in English).

I wonder whether Valencian language (which is somewhat of a misnomer) is at all common in English and whether it should be mentioned in the lede, should we move the article back here. If it's not, we can still mention that llengua valenciana is an endonym that translates to Valencian language. Sol505000 (talk) 02:35, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Calling it a "language" is backed by Spanish and Catalan. See student's books like: Valencià: llengua i literatura and llengua valenciana (or lengua valenciana) on Google. Note that I don't say it is a language of its own (as it shares a common background with Catalan language and both are sometimes referred as Catalan-Valencian[1] by some authors). In English the name is used by the Encyclopaedia Britannica[2] and some translations in English correspond to Valencian language [3], so there's nothing wrong leaving the article as it is now — User:Nuvolet ^(dis-me) 19:44, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Calling it a language is not the same as categorizing it as a language. The latter means that those that categorize it as a language consider it a Romance language on its own (therefore separate from Catalan). Sol505000 (talk) 20:00, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

"Categorized as" approaches "designated as". — User:Nuvolet ^(dis-me) 21:46, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

The necessity for a dab does not really hinge on the status of Valencian as language or dialect; it arises with the ambiguity of the word "Valencian" itself: it can be a lect (of whatever status), refer to an individual, or simply serve as general adjective for Valencia in its various senses. Whenever the latter meaning is intended, lazy editors might write "[[Valencian]] xxx" (xxx = could be any noun here) instead of intended "[[Province of Valencia|Valencian]] xxx" or "[[Valencian Community|Valencian]] xxx", and the current redirect will bring the reader to the wrong target, which as of now has a hatnote which will lead the reader to another wrong target. Try to write "[[Armenian]] xxx", and a bot will send you a dab note message; the lazy, yet not entirely irresponsible editor will fix it then. –Austronesier (talk) 14:03, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

The question isn't whether Valencian should be regarded as a language so much as whether the article about Valencian should be at Valencian language. If it is, then of course we should make this a dab page, but the latter question should be addressed first (cf. Cantonese). Nardog (talk) 22:47, 12 December 2021 (UTC)