Talk:Unternehmen Michael

"First Battle of the Somme"

Hello. Corrected date of German offensive from 12th to 21st March. Also: this campaign is sometimes known as the Second Battle of the Somme or the First 1918 Battle of the Somme. There was also a Second 1918 Battle of the Somme, launched in August. Since it doesn't greatly affect matters and could cause argument, I've deleted it. Hope this meets with approval. Hengistmate (talk) 18:21, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the date correction; I'm sure you're right. However, I think the context is important and have therefore restored the name of the battle. As I understand it, conflicting names are used in different countries, as covered in the linked article; I believe the discussion there is sufficient to deal with any confusion, but that information shouldn't be effaced simply because names differ. Yngvadottir (talk) 18:41, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

The date is right. I agree that the context is important, hence the changes I made. Information was effaced not simply because names differ, but in the interests of accuracy and clarity.

Encyclopaedia Britannica and many other sources refer to this action (March 21st-April 5th) as the Second Battle of the Somme, taking, not unreasonably, July - November, 1916 as the first.

There is, believe it or not, such a thing as the Battles Nomenclature Committee, a body established in 1882 by the British Army to decide what names shall be given to battles, how long they shall be deemed to have lasted, where one ends and another begins, et cetera. The Committee's decision, for the purpose of awarding battle honours, was: July to September, 1916 should be known as The Battles of the Somme, 1916; the "German offensive in Picardy" (21 March - 5 April, 1918) as The First Battles of the Somme 1918; and offensives from August 21st as The Second Battles of the Somme 1918. Please confirm here. Within these titles were smaller actions, and they included Second Arras, Second Cambrai, and so on.

One might feel that the Committee could have been more helpful, but it is too late to do anything about it now. The article as it stands says that Unternehmen Michael (literally "undertaking") was also known as the First Battle of the Somme. That causes a number of problems, not least that it wasn't called that. It's also an anglocentric statement - obviously, it wasn't known as that to the Germans, and neither was it to the French.

The dedicated Wiki site says that it was "known to some as the 1918 Battle of the Somme", which is, again, unsatisfactory on two counts.

The inclusion of this link seems to be providing a hostage to fortune. At the very least, it should read First Battles of the Somme, 1918. Unfortunately, that invites confusion with the "first Somme" of 1916, and, Wikipedians being what they are, there is the distinct likelihood of someone quoting Britannica and saying this is the second Somme. Since the link doesn't add any value, I thought it best to remove it and any contention it might engender.

If I might suggest it, perhaps a translation of Frühlingsschlacht would also be helpful. I shall do it if you wish.

Regards, Hengistmate (talk) 00:18, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

I see now what I had forgotten from when I expanded the article; the First Battle of the Somme link goes to the same Operation Michael page. I'll change it to the less ambiguous 1918 Battle of the Somme there and delink it. And sure, I'll add a translation of Frühlingsschlacht - I left it untranslated as not terribly important in this article and a possible candidate for a future article. Yngvadottir (talk) 02:42, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

It's less ambiguous, but still insufficient. There were two battles of the Somme in 1918, as determined by the Battles Nomenclature Committee and described above. This was, officially, the first. As I suggest, at the very least it should read First Battles of the Somme, 1918. I wouldn't bother at all. Regards, Hengistmate (talk) 06:11, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

On that, I think you should be posting at the Operation Michael talk page, and/or editing that article with the relevant reference. I can re-check the sources I used for this article, but I suspect they are not very precise about it. Yngvadottir (talk) 06:27, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

One thing at a time. Meanwhile, this might provide thge necessary precision. Hengistmate (talk) 07:23, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Can't see it I'm afraid. But please do take the issue to that page; it's peripheral here, whereas that's the place to cite one or more sources. Yngvadottir (talk) 07:39, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Since the First Battle of the Somme characterisation has now been removed, I've added a note in the ref. that calls it that. Yngvadottir (talk) 14:56, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough, but you could also add that the source is wrong. By no criterion can this engagement be legitimately described as The First Battle of the Somme. Nobody called it that. See above. I hesitate to suggest that American sources relating to WWI be treated with particular caution. Hengistmate (talk) 15:27, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

The previous state of our articles, as I've referred to above, shows that there's either been confusion, varying nomenclature, or a change in nomenclature; I'm in no position to judge which (although I'd guess it's the second; it could be a matter of lengthened perspective or changing scholarly practice and could also very well be a national difference). It doesn't matter terribly much for this article, although I hope it's now all laid out clearly in the articles on the battles, including the fact that varying terms have been used. I'm not going to say a source is incorrect on something I know so little about, and that appears to have been subject to variation, especially since it doesn't really affect this article ... but I think the reader deserves a note that it is called that in at least one reputable source. Yngvadottir (talk) 15:44, 4 April 2014 (UTC)