Talk:UVF Mid-Ulster Brigade

Exact date of formation

I wonder if there's a RS that gives an exact date for the brigade's formation besides just 1972. That was the year Gusty Spence was out of prison for 4 months between July and November. He restructured the UVF and also there was a huge cache of weapons stolen from a TA depot in Lurgan in October.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:28, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Separate Article?

Despite the wonderful work Jeanne, in particular, has done, I question the need for this article to exist outside the main "UVF" page.

Mid-Ulster was just one of a number of brigades within that organisation and it was less active than the Belfast Brigade, for instance, killing many fewer people and having fewer members imprisoned.

I recommend that this article be merged into the UVF article as a separate section and that the latter's infobox should not list Mid Ulster as part of the command structure. Yes, it had its own commander but he was subservient to the UVF's Brigade Staff, or central leadership based on the Shankill Road in Belfast and commanded by a "brigadier-general" or chief of staff.

If a separate article is allowed, then I think we're opening a minefield applicable throughout Wiki; namely, is every branch of an organisation or governing body going to have a separate page?

Finally, I make these points with no rancour or ill-will towards anyone. I have great respect for much of the work done on Loyalist paramailitary organisations. Billsmith60 (talk) 22:25, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. The Mid-Ulster Brigade was responsible for some of the worst atrocities of The Troubles including the Dublin bombings, Miami Showband killings, and countless sectarian attacks. It also had as leaders, two of the most notorious commaders in the UVF, namely Robin Jackson and Billy Wright. There are separate articles on many different brigades including the IRA's South Armagh Brigade. As many sources can confirm, the Mid-Ulster Brigade operated at a remove from the Brigade Staff. It was only after it was stood down during the Drumcree conflict that it fell more under the control of the Briagde Staff. I am truly disappinted that you wish to remove such an informative article from Wikipedia. Deletions of this sort bode ill for the future of Wikipedia and editors such as myself who put a lot of effort and research into an article only to have another editor casually suggest it should be merged. Delightful.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:45, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that it was policy to allow subsets of organisations to exist, for instance the IRA one you refer to. If that's the csae, then ok. But you seem to be taking this personally Jeanie - when I said specifically that this was not a personal issue - and saying "another editor casually suggest it should be merged" is unfair. I have noticed for some time that the MUB is referred to in the main UVF page and that's what got me thinking. But I'll drop this proposal while adding a note to the UVF talk page about a separate command structure on that page being inappropriate, IMHO. The MUB was neither a separate entity within the UVF nor totally indepedent of the Belfast leadership. Robin Jackon remained loyal to the "Eagle" in 1996/97, while also keeping in with Bily Wright. Brigades or battalions naturally had freedom of operation within their own areas but were under the control of the central leadership, even if nominally so on occasions. Regards, Billsmith60 (talk) 11:00, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

I added the MUB to the main UVF article's infobox prior to the creation of this article. I never said the MUB was a separate entity but it is referred to as a semi-autonomous unit of the main UVF in countless reputable publications from Dillon to O'Brien as well as the media such as the BBC, RTE, etc. That is why I created the article in the first place seeing as the MUB is notable as a unit. Billy Hanna, its founding commander, also had a seat on the Brigade Staff and set up the brigade under the aupices of Spence (most likely during his four months of liberation from July to October 1972). Robin Jackson was obviously allowed a hell of a lot of freedom from the Brigade Staff; in fact, he was permitted to pretty much run his own show all over Northern Ireland. This was no doubt because he was a Special Agent and very useful. Billy Wright obviously looked up to Jackson as a hero. I wonder if its prudent to mention the name of the Brigadier-General on the Brigade Staff, seeing as he's a living person. I'm sure you know to whom I am referring. Bill, I do admit to being a wee bit disappointed seeing as we have worked together well in the past. I staunchly believe this artcile to be a valid one and is beneficial to the encyclopedia. The Provisional IRA South Armagh Brigade and UDA South East Antrim Brigade both have their own stand-alone articles.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:05, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

There is no reason not to have an article on a specific aspect of a topic. Staying with the military theme as an example, the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) is a branch of the Australian Defence Force. No. 78 Wing was a combat wing and, subsequently, a training wing of the RAAF. No. 79 Squadron is a flight training unit of No. 78 Wing. And No. 79 Squadron RAAF is a WP:FA|Featured Article]]. Merging UVF Mid-Ulster Brigade into UVF would give far too much weight to that Brigade in the UVF article, unless vast amounts of information were deleted. This article should stay where it is. Daicaregos (talk) 13:44, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

It's clear to me now that it is appropriate for the article to remain. Jeanne, my esteemed friend, I was entitled to ask the question, I think. It has been well answered and I've been put in my place, nicely! I'll address your comments about the current CoS and Brigade Staff in the UVF article. All the best, Billsmith60 (talk) 15:14, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

I was on the verge of adding my tuppence worth but there's no need now. It's always nice to see a happy ending. :) Carson101 (talk) 15:16, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I adore happy endings and amity among editors. It makes editing at Wikipedia so much more congenial. Let me add Billsmith, that your knowledge of the UVF is amazing. I found some very interesting UVF-related photos over on Flickr which you may be interested in. Some are from the 70s and 80s. There are several of the Brown Bear pub and some of its more notable patrons.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:22, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Arriving late to the discussion, I would oppose any merge of this article with the main UVF article. The Mid-Ulster Bridage has/had a distinct profile within the UVF and the existence of this article can only serve as an additional resource for information about some of the major incidents and personalities of The Troubles, such as the UVF/LVF split and subsequent feuds, or the careers of figures such as Robin Jackson and Billy Wright etc, which are really rooted in Mid-Ulster and probably cannot be treated in sufficient detail in the main UVF article . Ivor Stoughton (talk) 19:36, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Orphaned references in UVF Mid-Ulster Brigade

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of UVF Mid-Ulster Brigade's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "taylor214":

• From 1991 Cappagh killings: Taylor, Peter (1999). Loyalists. London: Bloomsbury Publishing PLc. p.214 ISBN 0-7475-4519-7
• From Billy Wright (loyalist): Taylor 1999, p. 214

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 23:41, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

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