Talk:USA Gymnastics sex abuse scandal/Archive 1

Archive 1

first degree ?

What does "first degree" of sexual assualt mean? If these "degrees" are something official, can someone make a wiki-page about it? If they are not something official, this page lacks clarity imho. Do people reading this really have to assume things? Surely, I don't lack imagination. Or, if it doesn't matter how bad things were specifically, can we remove the "first degree"? (English is not my mothertongue. Maybe I misunderstood something.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A03F:3FB0:F000:C1CC:329B:4750:49F7 (talk) 23:36, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

@2A02:A03F:3FB0:F000:C1CC:329B:4750:49F7: Yes, "first degree" is an official thing. It is covered briefly in Felony, and may be covered more in-depth in another Wikipedia article. Bennv3771 (talk) 00:05, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Split

I think there's enough information and notability for an article on Larry Nassar, and information on him does not entirely fit in this page, because at least one woman who was not a gymnast has testified in court that he abused her. Natureium (talk) 16:32, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

@Natureium: Fyi, there used to be an article for Larry Nassar but it was deleted per AfD consensus. This was almost a year ago though, so perhaps those issues are no longer relevant (I haven't looked into it so I have no idea). Just something to keep in mind if you want to create another Larry Nassar article. Bennv3771 (talk) 00:09, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes, we've gone far beyond the current title "USA Gymnastics sex abuse scandal." It wasn't just USA gymnastics. It was many sports and it happened at Michigan State, too. There's enough for a Michigan State sex abuse scandal article. Fluous (talk) 20:13, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

It's not limited to Michigan State either. I'm going to start the Larry Nassar article. Natureium (talk) 21:03, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

We have a Larry Nassar sex abuse scandal currently redirecting here. If his abuse extended well beyond USA gymnastics, we should turn that into an article and this article into a redirect instead or merge everything here onto Larry Nassar. 69.118.34.223 (talk) 02:07, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

@69.118.34.223: You can start a requested move discussion at the bottom of this talk page. If consensus is for the title change then this article can be moved to the new title. Bennv3771 (talk) 02:18, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Use of "alleged" is no longer appropriate?

It seems like statements in the article such as: "In a statement posted to Instagram on November 21, 2017, Olympic gold medalist Gabby Douglas said she was also a victim of Nassar's alleged abuse" are no longer appropriate? Nassar has pled guilty to the crimes - it's not alleged anymore - it's proven. He did these things in the eyes of the court and government. Any objection to removing this language? Stevemidgley (talk) 21:03, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Alleged should be removed, he has plead guilty and is waiting for sentencing. Seraphim System ^(talk) 22:18, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

I agree. In cases where the crime has been convicted or confessed, I believe the use of "alleged" no longer is required under WP:BLP. BusterD (talk) 01:29, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Name?

This isn't just a USA Gymnastics scandal. Michigan State University is also implicated.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:cfea:170:4909:a638:cd08:f22f (talk) 02:19, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Nassar

Why is absolutely nobody reporting his place of birth? Strange, for any article by such a prominent name in Wiki articles. This source reports that he is an Egyptian by birth but does not give the city of birth: https://everipedia.org/wiki/larry-g-nassar/ Why is no source reporting on his immigration history and under what category or status he was allowed into the United States?Starhistory22 (talk) 02:09, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

@Starhistory22: Are you asking why this Wikipedia article does not list his place of birth? Or are you asking why news outlets are not reporting it? Because if it is the latter, please do not use Wikipedia as a forum. This talk page is supposed to be used only for discussions about improving this article. Also, Everipedia is not a reliable source. A quick google search gives me "Farmington Hills, Michigan" as his place of birth. Bennv3771 (talk) 03:33, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

To take this subject a step further, I think it odd that there is no separate entry on "Dr." Nassar. In light of the massive media reporting on this matter and the involvement of many other people and institutions who/that are covered here, it seems as though a decision was made somewhere to NOT publish background info on the person who sits right in the bullseye of the matter. Where was he born? School? Where'd he work? All questions that should be public information by now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BridgewaterContributor (talk • contribs) 18:05, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

@BridgewaterContributor: Feel free to help work on Larry Nassar if you feel so strongly about this. At the end of the day, Wikipedia is a voluntary effort. If an article on a notable subject doesn't exist, feel free to step up and volunteer your time and effort to creating it. Bennv3771 (talk) 16:48, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

it seems as though a decision was made -- It doesn't seem that way to anyone who is thinking clearly. All questions -- don't come here with questions, come with answers from reliable sources. Then those can be added to Wikipedia articles. Wikipedia isn't the output of rooms full of scribes following decisions "made somwhere", it is written by people (somewhat) like you. -- Jibal (talk) 05:18, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Why does this pagespace focus solely on the actions of a single bad actor?

If one was to do a reasonable search for '"USA Gymnastics sex abuse scandal" -nassar' one sees:

• an article from Sports Illustrated about the USOC and USAG. Specifically the article references the ways USAG failed to adequately address the 2011 allegations of crimes by coaches Doug Boger and the late Marvin Sharp. Says Michael Rosenberg, the SI author: "Keep that in mind as you hear about this “gymnastics scandal.” It’s not just a gymnastics scandal; it’s a window into how most governing bodies operate."
• this Hollywood Life article about claims that USAG tried to cover up allegations and prevent coaches from accountability, mentioning Sharp and Georgia coach William McCabe
• an enormous body of reporting from the Indianapolis Star which is mentioned three times in the pagespace, but the names of the other convicted coaches and resigned board members aren't mentioned, though their actions (or inactions) are thoroughly documented by the Star.

How has this article evolved into the Larry Nassar sexual assault page? This is about a lot more than one perpetrator. This is about a culture of ignoring reports and covering for coaches. Coverage of this scandal is limited to a single sentence paragraph. This stuff is well documented by diverse reliable independent sources. BusterD (talk) 03:59, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

References

Feel free to add content. -- Jibal (talk) 05:21, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

@BusterD: I have requested this article be moved to "Larry Nassar sex abuse scandal". The Larry Nassar scandal is notable on its own and doesn't need to be lumped with other scandals. Perhaps a more general "USA Gymnastics (or USOC) sex abuse scandals" article can be created to cover past scandals as well. Bennv3771 (talk) 07:46, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 25 January 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: SNOW not moved. Consensus is clear that this should not be moved. ToThAc (talk) 14:28, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

---

USA Gymnastics sex abuse scandal → Larry Nassar sex abuse scandal – The scandal and its coverage in reliable sources now extends far beyond just USA Gymnastics, including a lot of coverage on Michigan State's role in the scandal. Now that Nassar has pleaded guilty and has been sentenced, having his name in the title shouldn't be an issue for WP:BLP. Bennv3771 (talk) 07:42, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

• Do not support move - There is a recently created Larry Nassar article. That article should contain all of the currently available material on Nassar including the child pornography stuff, the Karolyi Ranch, and material from this article. In other words, the USA Gymnastics sex abuse scandal should continue to exist outright on its own due to the huge amount of sourcing backing it up. I also think that as time goes on, the USA Gymnastics sex abuse scandal article will continue to expand as more victims come forward with their stories. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 10:13, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

• Agree with not supporting move - Nassar is a focus of the scandal, but it reaches beyond him; he could well be the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the sexual abuse of elite athletes by their coaches or mentors. Hifrommike65 04:23, 25 January 2018 (CST)

• Oppose move at this time. I do agree with the nominator that much of this material should be moved or migrated over to the Nassar page. This page should include a substantial amount of material on the MSU/Karolyi/Nassar stuff. But as I mentioned in my thread above, the Nassar stuff is what's in the news NOW. Charles Pierce wrote in SI yesterday:

“ Burn it all down. That is the calm and reasoned conclusion to which I have come as one horror story after another unspooled in the courtroom. Nobody employed in the upper echelons at USA Gymnastics, or at the United States Olympic Committee, or at Michigan State University should still have a job. If accessorial or conspiracy charges plausibly can be lodged against those people, they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Those people should come out of civil courts wearing barrels. Their descendants should be answering motions in the 22nd Century. In fact, I can argue convincingly that none of those three institutions should continue to exist in its current form. USA Gymnastics and the USOC should lose their non-profit status forthwith. Michigan State should lose its status within the NCAA for at least five years. American gymnastics is no longer a sport. It’s a conspiracy of pedophiles and their enablers. ”

This is about the systemic covering up, not the acts of abuse themselves. I propose we divide the article into subsections about individual coaches and direct actors, and then add another section about what Pierce calls the enablers, folks who should have done something but even today continue to oppose a cleaning of house. I believe this is a BLP nightmare but as an encyclopedia we're almost obligated to cover it as reliable sources are made available. BusterD (talk) 11:30, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose for now the net is widening now to look at the system and institutions. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:36, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose, this is not only about one person but an institutional failure, as happened with the Catholic Church. Snow close please. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:58, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

140 v 150

Lede:

over 140 women .. have accused Nassar of sexually abusing them

Later:

over 150 people have accused Nassar of sexually abusing them

More than 150 women made statements during his week-long sentencing hearing

Trying to make sense of the numerical contrast here. Is it possible that the difference of 10 is non-women (boys?) who also made abuse accusations?

Unsure if the "made statements" thing is the same, because I don't know if this refers solely to victim impact statements or other women who did not accuse him of abusing them making statements. ScratchMarshall (talk) 20:16, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

@ScratchMarshall: Older reports from last year, when the lede was first written, said 140+. More recent reports state 150+ (1 2 3 4) and the number may increase as more accusers come out. Lede should be updated to current numbers. Bennv3771 (talk) 04:36, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Agree w/ Benn. Shearonink (talk) 18:43, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Is this article limited to sexual abuse by one individual?

As I'd announced in the move discussion above, I intend to expand this article to cover the entire USAG scandal, not the tiny part about the team doctor. When I attempted to start this process today, citing my work with each edit, I was reverted by User:Natureium. If the dozens of proven and confessed allegations against USAG's failure to protect student athletes do not belong in this article, then this article should be moved to appropriate namespace and the actual scandal (USAG's failure to protect athletes from dozens of criminal abusers) can be told in THIS pagespace. I appeared to gain some consensus in the move discussion above. I'd like other opinions. BusterD (talk) 19:19, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

• This article is in the appropriate namespace, and is on a specific topic. There is enough information and publicity on the events surrounding Larry Nassar and the alleged involvement of coaches, national team staff, and USAG that this is deservedly a stand-alone article. Natureium (talk) 19:24, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

I believe you've misread the results of the move discussion above. The move was not done because there was evidence the scandal was much wider than the single case. If so then additional material referring to the many proven and confessed cases can be added. It's either the Larry Nassar scandal or the USAG scandal. The move discussion above made it clear to me the future course of this page. Said final commenter Randy Krynn: "this is not only about one person but an institutional failure, as happened with the Catholic Church". BusterD (talk) 19:32, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes. In the scope of this scandal. It wasn't moved to Larry Nassar abuse scandal or whatever, because this specific scandal involves many parties. MSU is involved because of their alleged coverup of reports and mishandling of earlier investigations. John Geddert is involved because he allegedly facilitated Nassar's access to young girls. USAG is involved because they didn't follow up on reports and tried to keep allegations quiet. All of these are involved in the incidents surrounding Nassar, but he is far from the only one involved. And Larry Nassar's page wasn't merged with this one because he committed crimes that are not related to USAG. Natureium (talk) 20:08, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Nothing about attempted battery on Nassar?

The video of the father who attempted to beat Nassar to a pulp to his three daughters has been featured on every newscast here today.[1] I'm surprised no one has added this sensational detail to this article. (Probably the only time I've seen anyone actually coming close to having "five minutes alone in a locked room" with an enemy.) -- llywrch (talk) 03:19, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

While certainly sensational, it's not germane to this topic (the USA Gymnastics part). (He came close to landing a blow, but he didn't come anywhere near getting five minutes alone with Dr. Nassar.) Rebbing 03:44, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

"Larry Nassar" or "USA Gymnastics" or "Michigan State?"

To me, this is the "Larry Nassar sex abuse scandal." It's not primarily the "USA Gymnastics" scandal: his crimes didn't just happen there, and they weren't just about gymnastics— they involved virtually all women's sports. It's not primarily the "Michigan State" scandal: his crimes didn't just happen there either. It's chiefly, primarily, overwhelmingly the Larry Nassar scandal. Related scandals at USA Gymnastics and Michigan State can both be subsumed most naturally under the broader Larry Nassar title.

Alternatively, if the article remains titled "USA Gymnastics," then to be logically consistent we need to create a separate "Michigan State sex abuse scandal" article. That article could cover Nasser's abuse of female student-athletes at Michigan State, as well as the fall-out (resignations, NCAA investigation, etc).

I would have said this days ago but the page-move discussion was prematurely closed after just a few hours. Fluous (talk) 20:47, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

I opposed the page move because, like virtually all the participants, I presumed we'd build this page to describe why USA Gymnastics is facing such outrage--they've been protecting lots of coaches and at least this one doctor for years. Yet when I tried to build this page up I was immediately reverted and given what I viewed as a poor interpretation of the move discussion rationale. The page as written is the Larry Nassar sex abuse scandal. The larger scandal will be covered eventually, but I'm not going to edit war over it. By my talk page edits I've been trying to attract a page consensus for expansion but few editors seem to be viewing this, or few agree with our position. BusterD (talk) 23:28, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

I concur. Information about Nassar that is unrelated to USAG can be added to the Larry Nassar article. Natureium (talk) 00:13, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

What? Where does User:Natureium suggest Wikipedians write about USAG-related sexual abuse unrelated to Larry Nassar? Since August 2016, the Indianapolis Star (the hometown paper of USAG) and other news outlets have been covering the ongoing USAG cover up of dozens of cases where coaches and related figures were involved with some form of sexual abuse of minors over many years and USAG allowed those figures to continue working under their certification. Where does THAT scandal get Wikipedia coverage? BusterD (talk) 00:41, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

A minor mention of that and how it relates to the topic of this article might be appropriate here, but although every report of sexual abuse is tragic, not all are noteworthy for wikipedia. This is not a news site. Natureium (talk) 01:05, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

More allegations are still coming to light now, not only about Nassar, but going back as far as the 1970s with sources reporting The USA Gymnastics sex abuse scandal became public in 2011 when three women told the Orange County Register that former U.S. national team coach Don Peters had sex with three teenage gymnasts in the 1980s with lawsuits being filed against both Peters and Nassar. I think there should be an article for the USA Gymnastics sex abuse scandal, but that there might be more about Michigan State that deserves a spinout article of its own, because the complaints from MSU have not only come from gymnasts. If editors wanted to create a second article and link it to the section here with a hatnote I would support that.Seraphim System ^(talk) 07:29, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

References

Recent removal of 3 Categories

Three Categories - Category:Incidents of violence against women, Category:Violence against women, and Category:Violence against women in the United States were recently removed. I restored them - as it seems to me that rape and sexual abuse are acts of violence. Perhaps I am wrong - let's discuss etc. Shearonink (talk) 17:05, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

I've searched for violence in the article and it appears there's none, in the classical sense of applying physical force amid active resistance. The word "rape" is mentioned once, in the sentence "One gym owner had warned that McCabe "should be locked in a cage before someone is raped" which, of course, does not indicate any instance of rape. So I don't think violence categories are appropriate here. Brandmeister^talk 18:01, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

So. You are saying that sexual abuse isn't inherently violent. The one criminal's acts in the article and in sources is described as "...Nassar committed sexual assaults during medical examinations and purported treatments. The molestations ranged from his inserting a finger into the gymnasts' vaginas and anuses to fondling their breasts and genitalia." ...but his crimes against these children were not violent. If someone touches a person without consent it is considered assault. Assault is considered a type of violence. These men all committed multiple crimes of this type. But this article doesn't belong in those 3 Categories concerning violence? Shearonink (talk) 23:42, 22 December 2019 (UTC)