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Talk:UEFA European Championship/Archive 3

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Latest comment: 1 year ago by Jnestorius in topic Dubious

Summary table and map of winners

Latest comment: 2 years ago44 comments8 people in discussion

Currently we have inconsistency between the map and the table that summarizes the winners and runner-ups. The maps shows Russian and Czech Republic as winners, however that table shows how it was in the past - Czechoslovakia and Soviet Union (and also Yugoslavia as runner-up). The FIFA world cup winners table treats the record of Czechoslovakia, Soviet Union and Yugoslavia as the record of the successor associations, that of Czech Republic, Russia and Serbia. I think the best would be if we did the same here and treated them as results of the current states, with an efn marking that they achieved these results as different legal entities. UEFA officialy recognizes Russia, Czech Republic and Serbia as successor of these former associations. Please share your thoughts. Picsovina (talk) 12:20, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

I re-uploaded the image with all countries marked in green, Soviet Union won the 1960 title as the united country with all 10+ republics, so showing only Russia is clearly wrong and against the logic and sources. Yes is true that Russian federation is a successor of the USSR fedeartion, but that doesnt mean they also inherited all honours and records, there is no source from UEFA stating that - same goes for Serbia, Yugoslavia was one country at the time while Serbia didnt exist before 2007, so if Serbia can "inherit" those records (no source for that), then so can Croatia, Bosnia, Slovenia, Macedonia and so on. And as I said in the edit summary - if Catalonia would get indepedent and then won the 2028 Euro, would you also count 2008 and 2012 as their honours with a note "as part of Spain"? No? Then why should we do that with Serbia? Snowflake91 (talk) 12:35, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
Also, RSSSF, which is one of the most reliable sources for football, are using separated entries at the bottom of the page for the Czech Republic/Czechoslovakia, and are obviously using the names "Yugoslavia" and "Soviet Union", not "Serbia" and "Russia". You also have this article among others: "Serbia are meeting Albania at senior level for the first time since independence, though Yugoslavia twice beat Albania in 1968 UEFA European Championship qualifying.", which clearly means that Yugoslavia may be the predecessor of Serbia, but the results and honours are not carried over. Snowflake91 (talk) 12:51, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
@Picsovina: There should be no doubt about this. Both FIFA and UEFA recognise Soviet Union -> Russia, Yugoslavia -> Serbia, Czechoslovakia -> Czechia. The article on the FIFA World Cup follows this. Let's maintain this, period. Plus, this Snowflake guy totally barged in, shooting at everyone and everything, without discussion. I'm not going to give him any credit with this behaviour, which apparently is not new. The Replicator (talk) 13:16, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
Where are your sources for that, you are just empty talking bullshit as expected, I provided 4 sources, you provided empty shit. Give a source which clearly says "we, the UEFA, recognise yugoslavia & serbia and all their honours as the same team", and then we will change it. Snowflake91 (talk) 13:39, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
@Picsovina: I think we have enough material here for a blocking request, don't you think? The Replicator (talk) 13:44, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
And by the way, learn how discussing works - if you wanna do controversial changes like that, you should ask for opinions at the talk page first instead of keep reverting to your disrupted version and then requesting others to go to the talk page first. A quick look through the article history and its clear that it has been Yugoslavia/USSR/2 different entries for Czech rep. and Czechoslovakia for AGES, it has only been changed a few days ago without any discussion. And you have been asked to provide sources at least 2 times and you didnt do that, instead you blindly reverted anything, which is actually a vandalism. And by the way, who the hell are you to cross out my opinion on the talk page? 3rd time in a row you reverted without a concesnus or the sources, I will leave for 24 hours now, but if there are no sources in 24 hours I will revert you back and request a block for you for neither discussing neither providing sources when asked for. Snowflake91 (talk) 13:49, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
If I'm allowed to give my opinion, I would keep Yugoslavia and Soviet Union in the summary table because their "official" sucessors (I don't agree, but that's how it is) never reached a final. And since Czech Republic, already reached a final as Czech Republic, I think now might make sense to let it stay like that. XMillennium94x (talk) 15:08, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
You are more than welcome to share. Actually now that you mention it, that was the kind of initial requirement that triggered me. What kind of encyclopedic method it is that we need to wait for these two teams to either win or place 2nd to get the same treatment as Czech Republic/Czechoslovakia? That is just pure bias in favor of the Czech Republic. I am ok with either keeping now defunct teams in the table or to assign their honors to the successor teams (as it is on the FIFA world cup page), but giving special treatment to the Czech Republic just because they placed second in 1996 and letting only them take the honors of their predecessor team is not ok. Picsovina (talk) 15:20, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
How is it bias? Are we biased towards Germany and Spain because they won the most titles? Of course not. So why is it biased towards the Czech Republic to acknowledge their win as an independent nation? Russia and Serbia should not be mentioned in the table until they do the same; that's not bias, that's a fair reflection of the facts. You know what else is a fair reflection of the facts? Only colouring in Russia, Serbia and the Czech Republic as fomer winners, because UEFA and FIFA recognise those nations as the successors to the former Soviet Union, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia. You can't colour in modern day states like Slovakia, Montenegro or Latvia because those associations are not recognised by UEFA or FIFA as former winners of the European Championship. – PeeJay 15:39, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
I just explained, please read again. It makes zero sense if you are an encyclopedist to have only the Czech Republic in the table for Czechoslovakia and not Russia and Serbia for their predecessors. That is inconsistent. I am acknowledging that fact that Czech Republic placed second as Czech Republic, so that is why we have to decide which approach to follow - either keep the defunct teams (so Czechoslovakia for 1974 and of course include Czech Republic separately as Czech Republic for the 2nd place in 1996) or to assign their honors to the successor teams (as it is in the map now). I totally agree with what you said about colouring Slovakia and Montenegro and Kosovo and such, it is stupid. It was not me who did that. Picsovina (talk) 15:46, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
Why would we even need to make a whole science out of it instead of simply using the highly-reliable sources, like RSSSF? And even the primary source, UEFA, lists USSR in this article from today as the 1960 winner, and not "Russia, which succeeded Soviet Union". Snowflake91 (talk) 15:53, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
@Snowflake91: You wanted a source that FIFA "recognise yugoslavia & serbia and all their honours as the same team"? There you go, official FIFA website: Serbia, Russia and Czech Republic (it's on the right under honours). Piotr Bart (talk) 19:17, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
I asked for UEFA source not FIFA source, now find the same for UEFA since this is the European Championship article, FIFA has nothing to do with this. You can use this source for FIFA World Cup article if you want, but regarding this article, UEFA clearly doesnt recognize 1960 Soviet title as "Russia" as you can see from the link directly above, among several other sources. Snowflake91 (talk) 19:32, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
@Piotr Bart: Thank you. Plus, these: Russia, Czechia, Serbia. The Replicator (talk) 19:41, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
@Snowflake91: There you go: Serbia, Russia, Czech Republic Piotr Bart (talk) 19:47, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
Also for comparision, other countries of former Yugoslavia, Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia: Slovakia, Ukraine, Croatia Piotr Bart (talk) 20:01, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
Piotr Bart, recognition of succession does not necessarily constitute winning of the competition. Moreover it falsifies the truth. The Russian tri-color has never been seen in finals of the UEFA European Championship, but now according to the table it makes people think that Russian tri-color was waved at stadiums across Europe before 1992. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 16:44, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
I might be mistaken, but in my opinion, putting Serbian flag instead of Yugoslavian also denies memory of such fine Croatian footballers like Robert Prosinečki. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 16:51, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
Also unlike Soviet people and Czechoslovaks, Yugoslavs do exist even to this day despite what FIFA or UN say. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 16:55, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Websites of FIFA and UEFA on this issue

  • FIFA's website used to have country info pages, you can access the 2008 version of these pages via Internet Archive.
  • Euro 2012 also has an info webpage for every qualifying round participant, the pages now redirect to their "[Country]: all their EURO records and stats" articles for Euro 2020 (see below).
  • UEFA's website has a "[Country] Football Association" page for every member.
  • For almost every Euro 2020 finals participant, UEFA's website has a "[Country]: all their EURO records and stats" article.
Formerly Country / Team Today FIFA Country Info Page
in 2008 (Internet Archive)		 UEFA Euro 2012's
Team Info Page
(Internet Archive)		 "[Country] Football Association"
page on UEFA's website		 UEFA Euro 2020's
"[Country]: all their EURO
records and stats" article
  Soviet Union   Russia FIFA page UEFA Euro 2012 page UEFA page UEFA Euro 2020 page
  Ukraine FIFA page UEFA Euro 2012 page UEFA page UEFA Euro 2020 page
  Belarus FIFA page UEFA Euro 2012 page UEFA page
  Czechoslovakia   Czech Republic FIFA page UEFA Euro 2012 page UEFA page UEFA Euro 2020 page
  Slovakia FIFA page UEFA Euro 2012 page UEFA page UEFA Euro 2020 page
  Yugoslavia   Serbia FIFA page UEFA Euro 2012 page UEFA page
  Croatia FIFA page UEFA Euro 2012 page UEFA page UEFA Euro 2020 page
  Bosnia and Herzegovina FIFA page UEFA Euro 2012 page UEFA page
  West Germany   Germany FIFA page UEFA Euro 2012 page UEFA page UEFA Euro 2020 page
  • FIFA Country Info Pages in 2008: it appears the 2008 FIFA website considered Russia, and not other states, as the successor that inherited USSR's records; likewise Serbia as the successor of Yugoslavia, Germany as the successor of West Germany; but note that it also considered both Czech Republic and Slovakia as the successors that inherited Czechoslovakia's records.
  • UEFA Euro 2012's Team Info Pages: Among the four, this is the only one that clearly excludes Czechoslovakia's records in Slovakia's page.
  • "[Country] Football Association" pages on UEFA's website: USSR's history appears as part of Russia's history, but not in other states' pages. Yugoslavia's football history is detailed in Serbia's page. So does it for Germany, and Czech Republic who inherited Czechoslovakia's history. And again, In Slovakia's page, it says "1976: A large contingent of Slovak players, as well as assistant coach Jozef Vengloš, helps Czechoslovakia to win the European Championship", although the national team's pre-independence timeline is not as detailed as in Czech Republic's page.
  • UEFA Euro 2020's "[Country]: all their EURO records and stats" articles: both Czech Republic and Slovakia inherited the winning record as Czechoslovakia in 1976, and all other EURO-by-EURO records of Czechoslovakia. Ukraine and Croatia's pages do not include their pre-independence records, but Russia's page does.

Summary: FIFA and UEFA's view seems clear: Russia inherited USSR's records, Serbia inherited Yugoslavia's, Germany inherited West Germany's, but it's not perfectly clear for Slovakia - FIFA and UEFA seem to agree more that BOTH Czech Republic AND Slovakia inherited Czechoslovakia's records. --Tomchen1989 (talk) 20:22, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

All in all, UEFA is completely inconsistent about this issue. You have those sources that says the Russia inherited Soviet Union records, and then you also have this that says exactly the opposite. Thats probably because those national association overviews / stats are most likely written by the local hired correspondents, and is not neccessary the UEFA's view of the things. Are there any legal documents about this, signed by UEFA board member? Fun fact - USSR have a profile on UEFA site, where at the bottom you have a "recent form" section, and the matches stops in 1992, so its not carried over to Russia. Snowflake91 (talk) 20:51, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
Your first source shows the name of the national team at the time of winning the tournament, and regarding the second source, obviously it stops at 1992, it's Russia who inherited USSR's records - not USSR who inherited Russia's. Piotr Bart (talk) 21:14, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
Then why dont we use the names at the time of winning the tournament? Saying that Russia won Euro in 1960 and Serbia played in the final the same year is simply misleading and factual wrong. If they would reach the final again under the new name then yes (West Germany example), but now it cannot be like that. If anything, swap the flags and notes around, and include something like "Soviet Union (note: competes as Russia since 1992)", and not the other way around. Snowflake91 (talk) 21:52, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
@Snowflake91: If you mean you want to keep Germany and Czech Republic as it is now, as they reached the finals under the both names, and say Soviet Union and Yugoslavia, until they reach the final as Russia and Serbia, then I may agree. Piotr Bart (talk) 22:06, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
Yes exactly like that, and even the flags of W. Germany / Germany and Czechoslovakia / Czech rep. are literally the same so there is no controversy, unlike Serbia and Russia who never played in the final with that name. Snowflake91 (talk) 22:14, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
I wouldn't say this says the opposite. "Listing USSR as the previous winners" does not contradict with "saying Russia inherited Soviet Union records". And the fact the USSR have a profile on UEFA site can't prove anything. But I agree that that table in the article could be improved so it's less controversial. We can have a look at the same article in French, Italian, Japanese, Chinese Wikipedias, and even Russian, Czech Wikipedias, they mostly do not merge these former countries' records with today's countries. I think we can redraw the table like this one fr:Championnat d'Europe de football#Bilan par nation. As for the map (I'm the author of the SVG map), I'll rethink how to improve it, maybe use lighter green for the regions that was part of USSR and Czechoslovakia, or tag them with a square and write some notes. --Tomchen1989 (talk) 21:18, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
@Tomchen1989: How about doing it like in File:World cup countries best results and hosts.PNG? With a little map on the bottom showing old countries? Piotr Bart (talk) 16:02, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
I would totally support it if it were not for Germany: the current Germany would be an one-time champion (green) instead of three (blue), despite the fact it is the least controversial (or maybe not controversial at all) to say that Germany (and Germany only) inherited West Germany's records, and that Germany is three-time champ. --Tomchen1989 (talk) 18:41, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

@Piotr Bart: I'm fine with any version, including your latest File:European Football Championship winners.svg and UEFA European Championship#Summary. (there's some trivial, technical thing to do in the SVG file, I'll do it myself and discuss on the image's talk page) But I'm not sure if @Snowflake91 and other editors would oppose your version. Previously you and Snowflake91 appeared to agree with each other, I don't know what the consensus is exactly, I thought it's something like this? :

Team Winners Runners-up
  Germany 3 3
  Soviet Union 1 1 3
  Czechoslovakia 2 1 0
  Yugoslavia 3 0 2
  Czech Republic 0 1

The notes will be something like "1. Russia inherited the Soviet Union's records according to UEFA website 2. Both Czech Republic and Slovakia inherited Czechoslovakia's records according to UEFA website ..." --Tomchen1989 (talk) 18:41, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Whose idea was to now include Slovakia and Czech Republic as two different entries for the same win, meaning that the total tally of the winners is now 17 while the runners-up tally is 16, which is even more broken than listing Serbia as the finalists? That table above by Tomchen1989 is the only correct and sensible table as we should list the countries at the time of the apperance, the fact that Yugoslavia now competes as "Serbia" and the USSR as "Russia" can be mentioned in the note. Snowflake91 (talk) 18:59, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

If you wanna use UEFA sources, then use the list of winners they have published last week:
3: Germany (1972, 1980, 1996)
3: Spain (1964, 2008, 2012)
2: France (1984, 2000)
2: Italy (1968, 2020)
1: Soviet Union (1960)
1: Czechoslovakia (1976)
1: Portugal (2016)
1: Netherlands (1988)
1: Denmark (1992)
1: Greece (2004)

Why dont they use "Russia" (as Soviet Union) or "Slovakia" (as Czechoslovakia)? Why should we then? And remember that UEFA is not the ultimate source there, in fact it is a primary source - as already provided above, all others sources (RSSSF, WorldFootball, Soccerway...) are listing the USSSR and Yugoslavia as the honours recipients.

So its clearly that the table above is correct and should be used, and has in fact been used for decades. Snowflake91 (talk) 18:59, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

We can consider either leaving it as it is, which is the way it is in FIFA World Cup article, or replacing Russia with Soviet Union and Serbia with Yugoslavia, but keeping the Czech Republic as it was before all the discussion. However after thinking about it I think first option will be more fair to the Slovakia, which as we learnt also inherited Czechoslovakia honours. Alternatively we could put all the national teams separately (both Soviet Union and Russia etc) but that would be confusing as for example Russia today is considered one-time champion, Czechia too, same as we consider Germany three-times champions – not two-time champions West Germany and one-time champions Germany. Piotr Bart (talk) 23:46, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Even if they "inherited" it, there cannot be two countries sharing the same trophy as there were 16 winners so far and not 17, so you cannot include both teams as the winners of one tournament. Snowflake91 (talk) 10:14, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
What do you mean they can't share a trophy? They are both recognized as former champions by FIFA and UEFA. And the note makes it clear they won as Czechslovakia. No problem there. Piotr Bart (talk) 10:45, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
No they cant, you cannot include both Slovakia and the Czech Rep as the winners of one tournament as two separate entries as this breaks the total tally, there were 16 winners of the torunament and thats it, you cannot include 17, inherited or not. Snowflake91 (talk) 11:07, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
I still disagree, if there are two countries today that are one-time champions of the 1976, that's what the table is supposed to show. But we could: not recognise Slovakia as inheritors as they were recognized as such "only" in three out four sources in the table above. Then ok. I just thought we had consensus that Slovakia inherited too. Piotr Bart (talk) 11:40, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
FIFA source is irrelevant in this case, they can count them as the World Cup runners-up if they want, but UEFA competitions are not mentioned at all so you cannot assume that they are EURO winners because of that, this is not mentioned anywhere, FIFA and UEFA are two completely different organisations and are not obligated to follow each other's rules.
And as I said, UEFA ia a primary source and is inconsistent - why dont they use any pre-1993 history in this page for example? And also in another article, here ("Though this will be Slovakia's first UEFA European Championship finals, they do not want for experience."), but they do it in another couple of articles? I will tell you why - because those articles are written by multiple local reporters hired by UEFA from Slovakia/Serbia/Russia etc., and are based on opinion of the writter and doesnt necessary reflects the whole organisation's view of the things, so we should use secondary sources. Snowflake91 (talk) 12:02, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
As I said we can stop recognising Slovakia. But I find it funny how you deny official UEFA sources as "based on opinion of the writter and doesnt necessary reflects the whole organisation's view of the things", but you're glorifying the RSSSF, like they know better. Piotr Bart (talk) 12:33, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
As I see it now, we can do either:

a)

Team Winners Runners-up
  Germany1 3 (1972, 1980, 1996) 3 (1976, 1992, 2008)
  Spain 3 (1964*, 2008, 2012) 1 (1984)
  Italy 2 (1968*, 2020*) 2 (2000, 2012)
  France 2 (1984*, 2000) 1 (2016*)
  Soviet Union 1 (1960) 3 (1964, 1972, 1988)
  Czech Republic2 1 (1976) 1 (1996)
  Portugal 1 (2016) 1 (2004*)
  Netherlands 1 (1988) —
  Denmark 1 (1992) —
  Greece 1 (2004) —
  Yugoslavia — 2 (1960, 1968)
  England — 1 (2020*)

or b)

Team Winners Runners-up
  Germany1 3 (1972, 1980, 1996) 3 (1976, 1992, 2008)
  Spain 3 (1964*, 2008, 2012) 1 (1984)
  Italy 2 (1968*, 2020*) 2 (2000, 2012)
  France 2 (1984*, 2000) 1 (2016*)
  Russia2 1 (1960) 3 (1964, 1972, 1988)
  Czech Republic3 1 (1976) 1 (1996)
  Portugal 1 (2016) 1 (2004*)
  Netherlands 1 (1988) —
  Denmark 1 (1992) —
  Greece 1 (2004) —
  Serbia4 — 2 (1960, 1968)
  England — 1 (2020*)

~

Both fine with me if we don't recognize Slovakia. Piotr Bart (talk) 12:44, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

And now even more inaccuracy has been added to the table, like that third and fourth-place stuff – where is the source that UEFA treats the losing semifinalists as the third-placed teams? This is straightly made up, no one finished in third place at this or any of the previous EUROs since 1984...if you need to include this, then merge 3rd and 4th places and rename the column as "Semifinalist". Snowflake91 (talk) 13:40, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

I didn't do it. Piotr Bart (talk) 14:34, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
Also the sources are here: 1 (page 4) 2 (page 3) and 3 (page 3). Piotr Bart (talk) 14:47, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
Still needs to be changed to "Bronze medal" then, not "third place" per documents, the losing semifinalists receives the bronze medals but they are not treated as the third-place finishers. "Forty gold medals are presented to the winning team and 40 silver medals to the runner-up. 40 bronze medals are presented to the defeated semi-finalists." Snowflake91 (talk) 15:06, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

National teams in the summary table / conclusion voting

Latest comment: 2 years ago30 comments12 people in discussion

As the discussion above isnt going anywhere I suggest that we simply do the voting, and then use this as consensus.

  • Im gonna start up and propose the option B Option A, per Stevie reasoning below and per non-primary sources, you cannot win the competition if the country didnt even exist at that time. Snowflake91 (talk) 16:13, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
    • Option A should have West Germany as a seperate entry too Piotr Bart (talk) 16:42, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
      • Germany was never the problem in my opinion, even non-UEFA sources are counting their West Germany records (unlike the Yug / USSR case), and everywhere it says that Germany are the three-time champions. We dont even have an article for West Germany, unlike USSR and YUG. Snowflake91 (talk) 16:53, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Option A - Czechoslovakia is not the Czech Republic. Russia is not the Soviet Union. Yugoslavia is not Serbia. It is wrong to say these countries won something (or were runners-up) when they didn't exist. I know they are considered the direct successor but that does not make them the same thing. We should try to accurately represent history. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 16:34, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
    Accurately representing history is done by a year-by-year list and in the articles on the individual tournaments themselves. A summary of medal holders should of course list the current holders (i.e. the successor associations/national teams). Just like Parma Calcio have (among other honours) two UEFA Cup titles to their name, even though the club that originally won the titles was Parma AC, which then folded and reformed twice since. But those entities are considered direct successors, and thus hold the UEFA Cup titles. I don't see why we should treat national teams any different from clubs, just because it does not feel right. – Elisson • T • C • 10:23, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Option A per Stevie. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 17:18, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Option C. It would have no sense to sanction the inheritance of Czechoslovakia, but not of Yugoslavia and Soviet Union: for which reasons? If for new victories, why not also for second places, third, fourth, and so on? Option C is the usual form, consolidated for many years—Yugoslavia does have a successor team, as the other two, and that's why Russia is always considered enoying the 1960 win. Only teams with no stand-alone unique successor, left dead (as East Germany or South Vietnam) should be left untouched. --Foghe (talk) 19:01, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
What you're saying is not even true - it is not the usual form and it wasnt like that for "many years" - in fact, ever since 2010 until early July 2021 this article used Option A, before it was recently changed. Snowflake91 (talk) 19:29, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
But it is like that in FIFA World Cup article, I think that is what he meant and I think if it works good there, it will work good here. Piotr Bart (talk) 19:35, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
And why would it be like that? How about the otherwise - if it worked in this article for 11 years, then go and change the FIFA World Cup article instead? Snowflake91 (talk) 19:39, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
I was not talking about this or that specific table in some pages, but about the usual practice, built after several discussions: these tables (1 2) serve as some examples. --Foghe (talk) 19:49, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
Just because it's used on one article does not automatically mean it should be used on all articles. That argument is a non-starter. See WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 20:15, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
One article? We already gave like three example articles where this system is used. Also he clearly did say "It would have no sense to sanction the inheritance of Czechoslovakia, but not of Yugoslavia and Soviet Union: for which reasons? If for new victories, why not also for second places, third, fourth, and so on?" so don't act like he didn't give any reasoning, just because you don't agree with him. Piotr Bart (talk) 20:33, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
Let me clarify, I'm not saying this because I disagree. I'm pointing out that one of the arguments shouldn't be used. It doesn't matter if it's used on one article or 100 articles, saying "it's done this way here" holds no weight in these discussions. And to make clear, I'm not saying all of the arguments here aren't valid, just that one. I hope that explains what I'm saying better. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 20:55, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
  • after reconsidering: Option C per Foghe. --Piotr Bart (talk) 19:24, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Option A That was the country as it was back then. And add West Germany too. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 20:46, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
  • I prefer Option C ideally, but can come to terms with Option A too. Picsovina (talk) 22:16, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Option C, that has always been my position, Option B is second for me, it doesn't bother me too much. Option D for me is nonsense and Option A is not much better. The Replicator (talk) 11:54, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
And in a side comment, I saw Snowflake91 rising the question about semi-finalists being considered 3rd or 4th, and I agree with him on that. Those 3rd- and 4th-place columns should go away. The Replicator (talk) 11:59, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Option B - The Czech Republic inherited Czechoslovakia's record, whereas Slovakia didn't, and the successors to Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union's records haven't yet reached a EURO final. – PeeJay 12:02, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
    • The fact that Czechia have reached the final after the dissolution, while Serbia and Russia have not, should play no role in the decision over the matter. The concern is over a situation of consistency in the succession-of-teams question: once assessed the concept that the records of Yugoslavia and Soviet Union have been collected and continued by new teams, the transposition should not be dependant on whether the results and quality of players have been good enough to appear in a final or not. --Foghe (talk) 14:33, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
      • My opinion is consistent. Teams are only mentioned once they reach the final; Russia and Serbia have not reached a final, so they should not be mentioned. The Czech Republic have, and they (not Slovakia) are considered to be the official successors to Czechoslovakia's record. Not only is my opinion internally consistent, but it is consistent with FIFA and UEFA sources too. – PeeJay 18:48, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
        • And that's not just online sources, by the way. UEFA have committed this to print in this book, which I can confirm lists the Czech Republic as having competed as Czechoslovakia between 1960 and 1992, while Slovakia did not compete at all. By the same token, Russia is listed as having competed as the Soviet Union from 1960 to 1988 and as the Commonwealth of Independent States in 1992, while Ukraine did not compete at all in that time, and neither did Croatia or North Macedonia (Serbia didn't qualify for Euro 2020, so their status as the successors to Yugoslavia's record is not mentioned in the book). – PeeJay 18:56, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
          • If Russia competed as Soviet Union from 1960 to 1988, then they did reach the final, in 1960, 1964, 1972 and 1988; it's literally what your sorce says. Same with Yugoslavia. Piotr Bart (talk) 19:37, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
            • Yeah, that's fair enough, which is why I didn't vote for options A or D. My preference is still option B though. – PeeJay 19:46, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
              • Ok, glad we understand each other. Piotr Bart (talk) 13:26, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Option C, national teams represent their respective football federations not actual countries. The Russia NT is considered the sole successor of USSR, same as Czech Republic/Czechoslovakia, and Serbia/Yugoslavia. I understand why people want this otherwise, but then we'll open other cans of worms - i.e Serbia and Montenegro, Zaire/DR Congo, and Germany/West Germany, instead of having an easy and obvious fix.--Ortizesp (talk) 05:36, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
Zaire and DR Congo are essentially the same thing though. The argument around Germany/West Germany is as valid as that of the rest to be fair, they may all be the same association with the same UEFA membership number but they aren't the same thing. Saying they don't represent a country is wrong though because that is exactly what they are doing. The national association organises the national team and when the country changes, the national association changes. Not necessarily in name or its affiliation with UEFA but the teams affiliated to it, the competitions and national teams it organises and the player pool they can choose from all change. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 14:40, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Option C with same arguments as Ortizesp. – Elisson • T • C • 10:02, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Option A per Stevie. This is the most accurate variant. – Savramat (talk) 12:44, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Results summary table

Latest comment: 2 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

The results summary table is totally wrong. According to UEFA official website (https://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/history/winners/finals/) Russia and Czech Republic never won the UEFA European Championship and same goes for Serbia as a runner-up. First of all these three states there were no exist as sovereign states before 1992, 1993 and 2006. There were only as federal parts of three wider Federation States. The three football national teams of USSR, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia that participated in the UEFA European Championships from 1960 until 1988 have their own recorded historical route as well as the states they represented, while the multiple national teams that came up after the new political situation in the early 1990's have another history, their own indipendent history. There is no reason to confuse these two different stories and attribute laurels of victory where they do not exists.

So, the correct and historically accurate results summary table is the following:

Team Winners Runners-up
  Germany1 3 (1972, 1980, 1996) 3 (1976, 1992, 2008)
  Spain 3 (1964*, 2008, 2012) 1 (1984)
  Italy 2 (1968*, 2020*) 2 (2000, 2012)
  France 2 (1984*, 2000) 1 (2016*)
  Soviet Union 1 (1960) 3 (1964, 1972, 1988)
  Portugal 1 (2016) 1 (2004*)
  Czechoslovakia 1 (1976) —
  Netherlands 1 (1988) —
  Denmark 1 (1992) —
  Greece 1 (2004) —
  Yugoslavia — 2 (1960, 1968)
  Belgium — 1 (1980)
  Czech Republic — 1 (1996)
  England — 1 (2020*)

Anything else is false information (and historical smuggling). Alex11B11 (talk) 17:24, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't see a summary table in that source, but what I do see is that it's not "totally wrong", it just reflects a different interpretation of the facts than the one you came up with. I do see value in listing the Czech Republic separately from Czechoslovakia, but I will point out that UEFA considers the Czech Republic to have inherited the record of its predecessor. – PeeJay 14:59, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
@Alex11B11: There is a discussion on this issue on this page one topic above. You can vote for the most appropriate option there. – Savramat (talk) 12:50, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Spain were not the 1st team to win 3 consecutive major tournaments

Latest comment: 2 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

I've already corrected/clarified this twice. Is someone trying to start an edit war? Spain were not the 1st team to win 3 consecutive major tournaments. Argentina won the Copa America in 1945, 1946 and 1947. ACCH (talk) 21:35, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

The source provided says that they did, and they obviously counted only the modern era of football, probably no one cares about Copa America from the 1940s when the tournament was held literally every year, this Spanish record consists of two different tournaments including the World Cup, not just the same continental competition. Snowflake91 (talk) 22:10, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
The source is wrong then. 1st team means 1st team ever, not 1st team in the modern era, whatever the modern era is supposed to be. And it doesn't make any difference whether it's 2 different tournaments or not. Argentina won 3 major tournaments in a row long before Spain did. ACCH (talk) 19:47, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Dubious

Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion

See commons:File talk:UEFA European Championship best results.svg#Dubious jnestorius(talk) 21:44, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

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