Talk:Turf Moor

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Longside / Bee Hole terraces.

I've recently been working on Burnley Coalfield which has a mention of Bee Hole Colliery. From looking at old maps [1] it seems that these terraces were created from waste from the neighbouring mine (or possibly mines as several used to be linked together), later topped with concrete. I've found a couple of passing mentions but not a good source. This would be quite interesting info for both articles and surely must have been mentioned somewhere. Any help? TiB chat 18:56, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Not that I'm bitter that nobody even responded to this, but I really think we're going to have to do something about it now. As the article currently stands I can find no explanation of how it could have a capacity to just under 41,000 by 1913, or cram in 54,755 in 1924. The answer is the massive hill they built. If you compare the 1931 OS map to the 1912/13 ones the difference is striking. I did find this charming video of the construction of the current stands [2], from about the 5 minute mark you can see them digging it all back out. Somebody must have written about it? TiB chat 23:55, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

I've used everything from multiple sources (e.g. Inglis, Simpson). Due to construction work on the four stands, the capacity eventually totalled around 41k in 1913. The Brunshaw Road Stand was extended and Turf Moor could hold about 50k people by 1914. In my books/sources, there's no mention about a hill unfortunately (and a quick Google search doesn't find anything either, nor anything in local newspapers). WA8MTWAYC (talk) 08:51, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Well, there is a mention of a hill in the article (but not much more is said/known in the sources): "Spectators had to congregate around the pitch or watch from the hill at the back of Turf Moor, so in 1885, the club built an 800-seater wooden grandstand along the Brunshaw Road side and installed uncovered terraces for 5,000 people at each end of the pitch". WA8MTWAYC (talk) 13:02, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

I searched pretty thoroughly myself, and could only find the occasional mention of 'cinders' on message boards. I was hoping an old fashioned, offline source would save the day. If you are aware of any books that you don't have access to, but might be useful, let me know. No library access right now, but I know a Burnley fan or two. Otherwise I think we can do something with the maps directly. I'd not noticed the hill mention, and now you point it out I have a problem with it! The hill (or embankment) I'm talking about did not exist on any map earlier than 1912, do the sources specify that the hill came before the first grandstand? The ground here is one of the very rare flat areas we have. There is a hill, or rather a ridge behind the ground, but it is so far away, you would get a much better view from the top of the north stand at Old Trafford! I think if we use the 1892, 1912, 1931 and possibly the 1960 maps, we can at least talk about its size and development, if not it's composition or source. If you haven't done so already I'd certainly advise to compare them to the text sources, I've found this often shines new light on my understanding of an authors words.TiB chat 18:44, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm not a local, so it's quite difficult to access the good sources (or any if you like). I found this (did a very quick scan), however, and maybe there's something in it: http://www.burnley.gov.uk/attachments/app20180140_0_18%200140%20Coal%20Mining%20Risk%20Assessment.pdf. About the hill, Simpson (p. 574) implies it was already there since at least the 1878 Burnley Rovers v Bacup match (so before the first grandstand): "For the record Bacup won the match watched by an estimated crowd of over 3,000, although many more people were able to witness the historic event from the hill at the back of Turf Moor". But first I'll try and dig a bit deeper on the web. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 19:16, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Mike Smith (2014, p. xxiv): "The long, raised cinder banking opposite the Brunshaw Road Stand was formerly home to the tiny Star Stand which covered only half the length of the pitch. The Star Stand was demolished in 1914 (1913) and the cinder-banking raised and extended to cater for larger crowds which increased the ground capacity at Turf Moor in 1914 to 40,000 (50,000). It was not until the mid-1950s before this side of the ground was terraced and roofed which became the famously known among Burnley fans as "The Longside" and is now the James Hargreaves Stand". WA8MTWAYC (talk) 19:28, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

This is a quiet part of the world for Wiki editors! I've almost never worked with anyone local before, so I not surprised. I'm reading the report now and it instantly looks good! I've worked with this before [3], on pp15-16 I think we already have enough to deal with this! I'd just not understood it fully. I will keep reading.TiB chat 19:49, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

I believe there were quite a few editors in the Burnley area, but most have long retired or are inactive. It's good to see there are still some local editors active:) Great! That PDF you've sent contains some interesting schematics. We're getting there but I'll also keep digging. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 21:17, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

The early history section looks much better now with the new additions and I think we've virtually covered everything! WA8MTWAYC (talk) 10:12, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm no longer offended by that section apart from "Around this time, the site was composed of a turf patch amid moors." I want it to disappear, but could it be reformulated? It feels like somebody who doesn't know the town's history, was asked where the name comes from, and that was the response. I am still suspicious of the 41,000 capacity claim in 1913. The vast size increase of the embankment that apparently occurred afterward must have easily doubled the capacity, and yet we know that life-threateningly full in 1924 = 54,775, by which time the hill logically must have reached it's maximum size. I suppose we could just be unlucky with the timing of map surveys, and by the time of publication of the 1912/1913 maps (which I guess came from one visit) the embankment was already much larger than shown. Regarding Smith, what do think is meant by "1914 (1913)" and "40,000 (50,000)"? I can only see a couple more issues in the Development section...TiB chat 19:29, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Haha, that's quite possible since Inglis is from Birmingham and a Villa fan! (His work and books are very good though) I removed that sentence, however, since the turf is already mentioned in the first sentence. Maybe we can add something about "Moor" to indirectly explain the stadium's name? I also removed the 41k in 1913 bit. I digged into the attendance figures and the highest home att for a single match in the 1912-13 season was 28k (third round FA Cup v Boro). TM couldn't attract more fans in earlier seasons either. The highest home att in 1913-14 was 50k v Sunderland in the FA Cup. So I don't know where the 41k figure in Simpson's book came from and I couldn't find a mention of it in other sources. The capacity in 1914 was certainly 50k, however, as Simpson and Inglis (and the att. figures) concur. This gem also backs it up: [4] Regarding Smith, I added the data between the brackets (I could've been a bit clearer there...), because they decided to demolish the Stars Stand in 1913 and to increase the capacity to 50k. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 23:02, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Excellent! I'm really starting to like it now. I did find this [5], specifying at 52,000 capacity in the 70/71 season. Worth using? The Rothman’s football yearbook, not the message board ofc, I think I can just about make out the page number. Re: moors, I'm thinking about we could open with a description of Burnley's location, mentioning the Pennines (or more specifically South Pennines). Well known for moors. Maybe can just source it to one of the maps? Also I'm thinking of adding more of those to state that the terracing was built on the embankment and that some terracing had been constructed at the Bee Hole End by 1960. But I can't see much else to complain about.TiB chat 00:10, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

I think that capacity number rather applies to the early 1960s. Although when Burnley were flying high in the First Division in 1973-74, there were 40k in attendance against Leeds, of course one of the greatest teams of that era [6][7] So the 52k figure might be close but I'm not sure. I agree that the history section might open with a line about TM's location, close to the Pennines. Preferably sourced by a book or article as I'm not sure if FAC reviewers will be lenient with the use of maps (there were already difficulties with the use of a clear YouTube video in one of the recent noms...). I like the idea of giving some info on the BH terrace and the embankment. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 12:30, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Hopefully my latest additions will meet with your approval. I've no reason to think the figure stated in Rothmans is incorrect, the all-seater Cricket Field Stand, must have had a considerably lower capacity than the terrace it replaced. However as that number isn't wildly different from the one we already have, I'm not sure it is a tread worth pulling. I mentioned it because I suspect it might be the highest the official capacity figure ever. Probably more trouble than it is worth, and I have other ideas.TiB chat 19:49, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Ideas and possible omissions

While working on this, I had a few thoughts on other bits that could/should be added.

• Maybe this would be an abuse of a quote box?

Bertie Bee said to Bill Shankly, Have you heard of the North Bank Highbury, Shanks said no, I don't thin'k so, But I've heard of the Longside Burnley, Na Na Na Na, We are the Longside Burnley (repeat).[8]

Popular Burnley fan chant

• • Haha, love the chant but it would be overkill, yes. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 22:49, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
• The club shop development in 2016.
  • Added WA8MTWAYC (talk) 22:49, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
• The grounds keeper's cottage that existed on that site until the 1970s (112 Brunshaw Road).[9]
  • Interesting. Haven't found anything reliable about it yet. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 22:49, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
• Link to Gawthorpe Hall, perhaps a mention of the training ground development.
  • Done. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 22:49, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
• Mentions of the championship wins. Because why not?
  • Added the second FL title win, because it connects well with the first European match. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 22:49, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
• I previously removed an erroneous statement relating to the population of the town.[10] Thinking about it more, 50k would have equalled the male population of Burnley at that time.[11]
  • Good find, added. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 22:49, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

TiB chat 20:12, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

After quite a lot of searching the best source I can find for the grounds keeper's house is this [12] "Anecdotal evidence suggests that the groundsman hut previously occupied the site of the Burnley Football Club Shop". I'm thinking this is not enough in this case and I don't think it is a particularly essential addition. However I've been reading 1920–21 Burnley F.C. season and have two thoughts. One - it is good and it seems a shame not to work it in. I see it states "the largest attendance ever at Turf Moor at the time" (42,653) ref'd to Simpson. There is also the record unbeaten run. Could we start a new paragraph after the seat for every male bit, and start it with a mention of the club's great form when league football resumed after WWI. Then record unbeaten run in championship winning 20-21 season saw then-record attendance etc?

Also I notice it contains an old aerial view of the Turf. It is very low res and may have a license issue. But I have found a better version. [13] The copyright might be a show-stopper, but it is over 90 years old, so maybe we could find a suitable license?TiB chat 20:11, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

"The largest attendance ever at Turf Moor at the time" must be "largest league att" as there was a crowd of almost 50k in the stadium v Sunderland in the 1913-14 FA Cup. However, TM saw an avg home att of more than 30k, a then club record, so added that. I've also mentioned something about the unbeaten run and the First Div title win. The photo is stunning, but as the author is unknown and created after 1926, there is unfortunately no way we can get around the US license (which is apparently also needed). WA8MTWAYC (talk) 22:18, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Just a couple of things I've noticed from comments raised at the FAC which may be worth including:

• Desso GrassMaster pitch - this was installed in 2010 at a cost of £750,000, funded by Burnley's foray into the Premier League in 2009–10. Before this it was just a regular grass pitch which often cut up quite badly in the winter months. Sources: [14][15]
• The admission price before the increase in 1889 was 4d (source: "Burnley Football Club and its charges", Burnley Express, 18/9/1889, issue 1895, p. 3). The piece notes that many other league clubs (e.g. Everton, Preston North End and Accrington) charged 4d and by all accounts the supporters were not impressed by the price hike.

Hope this helps, BigDom (talk) 15:59, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for this and for trawling the archives, Dom. Both are included now. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 19:31, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

@BigDom: Good to see that you are still around! Yesterday, as well as not properly checking my work here, I expanded Burnley Cricket Club and Gawthorpe Hall. I can do more with the cricket, but I struggled for details of the old training centre if anyone can help? I think ideally it would have it's own section...just needs a little more content.TiB chat 16:05, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

• Alan Brown helped to dig out the ground and "volunteered" several of his players [such as McIlroy and Adamson] to assist.
• Maybe there is something in these? [16] [17]

I hope it's helpful. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 17:34, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

References

@Trappedinburnley: Yeah, still here just about. Not been too active since they hounded Malleus out. Anyway, the online bit of the newspaper archive doesn't cover the years when they were building the training ground unfortunately, but I'll see if I can find anything in my other books etc. Cheers, BigDom (talk) 07:09, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

@BigDom: Just the reminder of that catastrophe has put me off my editing for a few days. I'm sure if he was here, he'd find at least 100 ways to improve the article. Wikipedia readers will just have to suffer the best attempts of the rest of us. Regarding Gawthorpe, Burnley moved in about the same time that the course of the river was moved back from the north side of the site to facilitate an opencast coal scheme along the north side of the valley. I wonder how the two connect? TiB chat 23:04, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Trappedinburnley One of the photos you recently took (the one now in the article's infobox) already featured as the background image during the analysis of tonight's game on the Dutch television! WA8MTWAYC (talk) 20:20, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

@WA8MTWAYC: That is pretty cool! I don't imagine most of my photos are so useful. I wonder how many more people have seen it than the handful that our records suggest? [18] TiB chat 23:04, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

I reckon quite a few as English football is popular over here. And to top it all off, ever-prolific forward Youri Mulder sat right next to your image:) WA8MTWAYC (talk) 18:57, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

A few quick thoughts

Lead

• The pitch dimensions and surface type could be mentioned the prose instead of just in the infobox, and then move the refs out for a cleaner infobox.
  • Done
• "while terraces were added to each end of the ground" seems a little like it's missing a "in [YEAR]" or something?
  • It was done in the same year, so I hope the addition of "also" makes it a bit clearer.
• "The ground comprises" would consider an {{as of}} here, because stands sometimes change name through sponsorship.
  • Done
• "attended a match between Burnley and Bolton Wanderers" if that wasn't a league match was it a cup or friendly?
  • Friendly, reworded
• "netted" bit colloquial -> scored?
  • Done
• "in 1922, and in 1927," bit clunky repetitive.
  • Reworded

The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 12:30, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

History

Early years and construction

• Not sure "sport" needs to be linked.
  • Unlinked
• "of a turf patch amid moors.[4] Horse racing was also held on the fields" bit non-seq herre, you said turf amid moors, then said "fields".
  • Replaced "fields" with "area"
• "under rugby rules" union or league?
  • The source(s) implies/imply "rugby football".
• "under rugby rules in the first match under" under ... under.
  • Reworded
• "team Burnley F.C., Rovers' successor which had been formed on 18 May 1882,[6] to move from their" bit of a mix of singular/plural/who/which etc.
  • Amended
• "a crowd of 12,000 were at" was.
  • Amended
• "For the first two years," first two years from which year?
  • Removed that part as it works better without
• " In October 1886, Turf Moor became" feels like the sentence is trying to cover too much, split and try to avoid repeat of "visiting".
  • Reworded
• "which comprised a grandstand." included?
  • Done
• Bit of a mix of whether you use F.C. or not on the first mention of clubs.
  • Removed the "F.C." both times (in the body)
• "for the FA Cup quarter-final game" could link the edition of the FA Cup rather than/as well as the generic FA Cup page.
  • Done

The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 13:04, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Development and decline

• "only FA Cup semi-final in 1922" could link specific FA Cup again here.
  • I rather keep the current link as that article gives a clear overview on how many times Turf Moor (and other stadia) has/have hosted semi-finals.
• Same comment applies hereafter!
  • Done (and throughout the rest of the article)
• " a home record for Burnley." surely "a record for Turf Moor"?
  • Done
• Not sure the link to "hut" is needed or really helpful. What was its purpose?
  • Unlinked
• "y over Stade de Reims" maybe reinforce they were a French team.
  • Done
• Pretty sure people will claim not to understand "players' tunnel" so perhaps think of adding an entry to the glossary at the very least and link to it.
  • Done, done
• "was killed in a fall through the roof of the ageing Longside Stand, when he" ->"was killed when he fell through the roof of the ageing Longside Stand as he..."?
  • Done

The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 13:13, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Conversion to all-seater

• "the top two divisions by" -> "the top two divisions of English football by"
  • Reworded
• "by 1994–95" ->" by the start/end of the 1994–95 season."?
  • By the start, added
• " took the stadium's capacity to 22,619" do we know what impact the Taylor report had on the initial reduction in capacity? I know it was pretty severe for most clubs...
  • Turf Moor's capacity actually slightly increased because of the new two-tiered stands (according to Inglis).
• "Burnley's relegation from the Premier League and" add link to appropriate PL season article.
  • Done
• Is there any appetite for a schematic of the stadium? I may be a bit biased but something like this?
  • It would certainly be nice and I would like it, but I'm terrible with painting/drawing apps on the pc...

The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 13:29, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Structure and facilities

• "Panorama of Turf Moor (2011), with t..." perhaps add "taken from the Bob Lord Stand"?
  • Done
• "one of the best ratios" bit POV, maybe "highest" instead of "best"...
  • Reworded
• "was originally known as the North Stand" you already said that in a previous section.
  • Removed
• "against Orient in" were they not called "Leyton Orient" in 1987?
  • Two months after the game, they reverted to "Leyton Orient"
• "Burnley defeated their opponents and stayed in the Football..." I think the story here can be explained to help readers understand why a single victory meant they avoided dropping out of the Football League.
  • Reworded and expanded the sentence
• "Away supporters are seated in the Cricket Field Stand" you say this again a bit later, do you need it twice?
  • Removed the above
• UCFB is mentioned as an acronym but not used.
  • Removed
• "taste for the drink" taste for Benedictine? or Benedictine and hot water? The next sentence is them adding hot water to it, so it's a little muddled.
  • I've replaced "drink" with "liqueur" to hopefully make it clear that's the taste for Benedictine.

The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 13:29, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Other uses

• "who scored a penalty kick" I know what you mean but it could be read that all three of them scored a penalty kick between them...
  • Reworded
• Link groundshare.
  • Done
• "average attendances of 20,000 in the Premier League" is that over a season or several seasons? Just curious.
  • For several seasons
• "poured into" tone issue here.
  • Reworded
• Link First Division.
• And Second Division.
  • The First and Second Divisions are already linked in the first paragraph of the "Conversion to all-seater".

The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 13:36, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Transport

• It is somewhat amazeballs that we don't have Burnley itself linked until the last section! Maybe it needs to be mentioned up front in the history section somehow!
  • Indeed, mentioned and linked it in the first sentence of the article's body.

The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 13:36, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

I'll take a look at the references another time. Cheers, hope some of it's helpful. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 13:36, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

The Rambling Man Thank you very much for this, it's been very helpful. I've responded to all of your points. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 22:07, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

I've been trying not to notice this article, but now I'm interested. I have the advantage of being able to walk to the ground, so I used my lockdown exercise period to pay a visit today. I've just uploaded a few new photos. I have a full set of Bennett's History of Burnley (4 vols), while I can find nothing on the construction of the stadium, he does have useful background info.

• Turf Moor was one of medieval Burnley's commons.v2p173
• At that time people likely cut peat here for fuel.v1p86
• Burnley CC formed in 1833, but did not move to Turf Moor until 1843.v3p258 (error is Simpson perhaps?)

• Yeah, according to Simpson's book Burnley CC were playing at TM since 1833. I corrected the error, as even Burnley CC's website mentions only having played there since 1843. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 10:32, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

• A very short-lived attempt to get an annual horse race meeting going occurred before 1840.v3p259
• The floodlit match experiment cost £39 and was not a success with spectators leaving before the end complaining they could not see.v4p35

• Was this experiment in 1878 or 1891? WA8MTWAYC (talk) 10:32, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

• "In January 1883, the Burnley Cricket club, which had sponsored the formation of the Burnley Football Club for those of its members who desired an active winter sport, took over seven acres of land at Turf Moor adjoining the cricket field, allotted it to the football section, and presented £65 towards the initial expenses."v4p227
• A dispute broke out in 1885 when the cricketers complained that the footballers didn't clean the shared dressing room or pay toward repairs.v4p228
• After more disputes in 1889, the football club separated from the the cricket club and agreed to pay £77 per year to rent the ground.v4p228
• The same year admission fee raised to 6d.v4p230

Also the name 'Bee Hole' indicates that bell pit coal mining occurred here. This can be sourced to [19] which is already in the article. So I think we can certainly improve the opening of the Early years and construction section. I've not got a vast amount of time free, but count me in. TiB chat 20:16, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

FANTASTIC! The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:39, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Trappedinburnley Wow, that's very great and interesting. The photos are excellent as well. I look forward to collab! WA8MTWAYC (talk) 22:07, 24 January 2021 (UTC)