Talk:Trick-or-treating/Archive 1

Archive 1

Album: Trick or Treat

There's a nirvana bootleg album called "Trick or Treat." It was recorded on halloween. There's no article on this, or mention of it. Perhaps there should be? Or something like "other uses in popular culture" or something. — 68.239.225.159 14:46, 4 February 2006

i made a disambig page for trick or treat which includes the album, but theres no article for it yet. id appriciate someone familiar with the whole redirection+disambig coding process would check mine out. i havent completed it yet and im not sure if itll work. Urukagina 02:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

in fact, after a few minutes, i still dont know where the "redirected from" text comes from, so i guess the disambig will just float out there for a while. Urukagina 02:28, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I got it worked out for you. The "redirected from" text is part of the MediaWiki software Wikipedia runs. It just tells you that you typed in Trick or treat but the page is located at Trick-or-treating. It's just an organizational thing. Timrem 04:15, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

What kind of tricks?

What kind of tricks are there? For adults working at night shifts, their being disturbed is already a serious trick.--Jusjih 10:04, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

'Charity, please.'

I'm not Quebecois, and the French dialect changes from region to region, but around here 'La charite s'il vous plait' translates to 'Donations please.'. Is there someone more qualified who can correct me/this ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.68.227.35 (talk) 20:56, 1 February 2007 (UTC).

i watched a documentary about holidays and halloween was one of them and the man spoke that halloween was actually created by the druids (a pagen religon/cult)that they would go door to door or as you would say trik-or-treating which was what they did and what they would do is knock on the door and if the owner of house would caoperate with then thay would take a member of there family for sacrifice in the trhee day fire festaval and when thay left they would leave a previously hollowed out pumpkin filled with human fat on their door step and light it on fire and this would keep away the deemons away for those three days if they didnt they would paint a pentagram on their door in human blood and that night someone would die in that household. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.150.118.246 (talk)

Unfortunately, recollections of an unnamed person in an unnamed television documentary are of little use for Wikipedia. Nowhere else have I read this about the Druids, of whom we know very little actual information, and to whom a lot of bogus folklore has been attributed. One thing we know that they could not have done is leave a hollowed out pumpkin on someone's doorstep — pumpkins are native to the New World. — Walloon 02:30, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

zebra

hey in that 1 picture of TOTing on the prarie-is that a zebra in the back ground?I am Paranoid 17:01, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it's a horse or pony dressed as a zebra for halloween.—Chowbok ☠ 17:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Irish immigration to US

There are a number of falsehoods in this article, among them the the "first great wave" of Irish immigration was not unitl the middle of the 1800s - in fact it was the 1770s. See Scots-Irish American.

In addition, to assert there was no trick-or-treating on the east coast before WWII is absurd. Shoreranger 03:01, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Can you present documentation that there was trick-or-treating on the East Coast before World War II? — Walloon 04:07, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Too many images?

I think that there are too many images in this article... currently there are 4 images for 2 pages of text. How many family photos do we need of what is objectively the same? How about we just add a link to the commons? I think one good picture of a trick-or-treater would be fine, Wikipedia is not a photo album!!! --DotDarkCloud 10:56, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Better definition?

I came to this article to try to understand the meaning of the child's question "trick or treat". The article is excellent on the social history of the custom but does not address this basic question. What are the alternatives being offered to the adult who opens the door? Who tricks whom or gives whom a treat? Please revise the start of the article to explain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.210.189.17 (talk) 08:22, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

There was an explanation of the "trick" part of "trick or treat" further down in the article. I moved it up to the introductory paragraph. — Walloon 08:56, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

That clears it up nicely; many thanks - AG. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.210.33.57 (talk) 22:46, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Back to front

Surely this article is back to front. It begins with a Halloween traditon which is attested only in America and only since the early 20th century. Then it goes on to talk about the related tradition in the Celtic heartlands as though that were the variant. But guising comes first, historically and logically. --Doric Loon 19:19, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, that is a deliberate point of contention in the latest scholarship — whether they actually are related. The traditional view was that nearly all Hallowe'en traditions originated with the Celts, and go back hundreds if not thousands of years. Yet more careful modern research has failed to substantiate that traditional view with actual historical evidence. There is very little primary documentation of costuming or masking on Hallowe'en before 1900, on either side of the Atlantic.

Likewise, although the traditional view has been that American trick-or-treating was adapated from some British or Irish antecedent (e.g., souling), no actual connection has been found and documented. Trick-or-treating in America was virtually unknown before the 1930s, several generations after the peaks of Irish and Scottish immigration to America. The fact that A came before B does not necessarily mean that B is related to A, much less that A caused B. The American custom of trick-or-treating appears to have an independent origin in the 20th century, unrelated to any British or Irish antecedents.

I know that this makes some British and Irish people quite angry (I've dealt with one or two!), but when challenged, they have been unable to provide primary documentation of Halloween masking or costuming before 1900, or any documented connection between American trick-or-treating and British or Irish antecedents. — Walloon 23:34, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree up to a point. The so-called celtic origin story is something of a myth. One element of it is nationalistic competition with 'the English' which U.S. editors might take note of. Looking at this info about the Peak District (which is in England):

All the seasons are celebrated in the Peak, with such local customs as Garland Day and maypole dancing in the spring, well dressing in the summer, church clypping in the autumn, and the ghost of Christmas Past is kept alive and well by certain local folk `masquerading in the guise of mummers'. .... a `mummer' is `one who masquerades in a folk play, usually at Christmas' - and `mumming' is `a show without reality; a foolish ceremonial', whilst a `guiser' is `a person in disguise, dressed up in costume; a Christmas mummer; one who goes guising'" (Guising, from which is derived the word geezer apparently; for some reason I find that fascinating but anyway...)

Masking and costuming are just folk traditions everywhere. I'm sure you're not suggesting Americans of European descent made all that stuff up - they brought those things with them. But I agree with the lack of evidence that guising happened at Halloween in particular. It looks more like a practice at the end of the year, for example the Bavarian Wild Men (December 6) who knock on doors to steal kisses from women. A little later (In Britain/England I don't care which) mummers in disguise visit houses at night to give gifts - a mid-winter tradition of sharing Luck. My copy of "The Seven Ages of Theatre" suggests this provides the origins of the court masque. And so on. It's not 'celtic', or particularly British/Irish, just common and pre-Christian, but not so far as I can find out traditionally at Halloween. Trick or Treating at Halloween is all-American so far as I can tell. If it makes Europeans feel better perhaps it could be thought of as one of those transatlantic 'misunderstandings' or cultural transpositions, something half-remembered takes a different form. I'm just trying to make everybody happy :) Hakluyt bean 13:00, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

¿Me da mi calaverita?

In Mexico, the common frase for trick or treat is "¿me da mi calaverita?" wich is translated by "Could you give me my little skull?". Calaverita refers to the traditional candy skull that is given in the Day of the Dead (Día de muertos or día de los fieles difuntos). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.30.13.239 (talk) 19:31, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Adjusting TOC

I wasn't sure if it were appropriate to archive this article's talk, but since it had a long comment sans header at the top I moved the TOC to the left in the hopes that it may be easier to read. Cheers!--otherlleft (talk) 19:36, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikiproject Halloween

I am trying to gauge the amount of interest in creating a Wikiproject Halloween. If there are editors interested in the possibility, please contact me on my talk page. Thank you.--otherlleft (talk) 19:36, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

On Halloween?

I think it should say something like "on or before Halloween." In my part of Pennsylvania, at least, trick-or-treat is the Friday before Halloween so that kids aren't out late and consuming sugar before a school day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.172.186.128 (talk) 00:16, 26 October 2007 (UTC) Throughout Southeast Wisconsin, most municipalities set the trick or treat times so that they fall during daylight hours on a weekend (before or after Halloween if that's a weekday) for safety reasons. 63.87.189.17 (talk) 01:06, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Porch lights

In the U.S., homeowners traditionally turn their porch lights on to indicate whether they are open for trick-or-treating. If the light is off, then the homeowner is not participating... but generally no tricks ensue. 63.87.189.17 (talk) 01:08, 28 October 2008 (UTC) What do people who live in flats/apartments do? Markb (talk) 12:52, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Undoing a bad cleanup job

I just spent a lot of time undoing the mess created by someone's revision of the history section in October. For example, a CD-ROM containing 3,000 Halloween postcards became 3 million. Please, if you are not knowledgeable about this topic, do not fiddle around with the article. You just may make it worse. — Walloon (talk) 17:48, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

From the version of the article before I began working on it: "G & L Postcards has published a CD-ROM with over 3,000,000 vintage Halloween postcards." Looks like 3 million to me. If you wrote that sentence, and got the number wrong, the fault is yours; perhaps you should try giving people the benefit of the doubt. The version before I started work was messy and often buried interesting information in footnotes. It's beginning to get a little better now. But there's much more to be done. I clean your mess, you clean my mess, that's how it works. Downstage right (talk) 21:39, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

No, I did not write that sentence. Here is the sentence as I wrote it, back on 27 May 2007. — Walloon (talk) 22:28, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Your culprit is here. Direct your complaints that way.Downstage right (talk) 00:36, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Meaning of the phrase trick or treat

So what is the ritual?

From what I understand it to be the little ghouls coming knocking on your door and start shouting trick or treat! If you don;t have any thing to offer them or you don;t want to offer them anything then you ask for a trick. So they play a trick on you (or do you play a trick on them?), otherwise you say treat and offer them treats. — Rodneymus 14:05, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

The phase originally meant "Give us a treat, or we will play a trick [prank] on you." The pranks were various kinds of vandalism on one's home and property. — Walloon 02:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The article is confusing

It says

The "treat" part of "trick or treat" is a plea for some sort of sweet. The "trick" part is asking the homeowner to play a trick on the enquirer instead.

So it is implying the the trick part is asking the home owner to perform a trick and not a threat of trick (prank) if the home owner refuses a treat.

However it then goes on to say

"the United Kingdom, where the police have threatened to prosecute parents who allow their children to carry out the "trick" element"

So is the "Trick or Treat" part asking the home owner "Do a trick for us or give us candy" or is it saying "Give us candy or we will play a trick on you"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.107.0.103 (talk) 20:37, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I am from the Uk and when i went trick or treating as a child 'Trick or treat' meant the homeowner either performed a trick for you, like a simple magic trick or doing a headstand, or gave you a treat, i.e. candy... doing property damage didnt seem to be in the spirit of things, especially as people unwilling to 'treat' don't tend to answer the door in the first place... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.220.232.84 (talk) 18:49, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Cleanup

The unsubstantiated claim that "all pre-1940 uses of the term "trick-or-treat" are from the western United States." is incorrect. There are numerous newspaper articles from non-western US states from the 1930s. See http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/trick-or-treat.html for some verifiable examples.

Also, "most significantly in the United Kingdom where the police have threatened to prosecute parents of children who allow their kids to do it". That gives the impression that trick or treating is generally considered illegal in the UK. It is seen as an unwelcome US import by many adults, but it is in no sense illegal. — Cisgjm 05:55, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I've also no recollection of ever hearing about the possibility of parents being prosecuted. I think we need a source for this. Tim 09:50, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I've added a couple of citations for threatened police prosecutions, as well as for active discouragement of trick-or-treating this year. Nick Cooper 13:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Cisgjm, Please explain what you mean. I went to the page you linked above, and it contains citations of the use of the term "trick-or-treat" only from the states of Oregon, Montana, and Nevada — all western states. No citations from non-western states. — Walloon 12:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

You state no sources for any of your claims about the practices origins, or for your claims that it is losing popularity in the USA since, or that some cities ban it. State your source or delete your claims!!!!!!! — 24.11.154.78 16:22, 28 October 2005

Where do you expect to find a trick-or-treating expert? I history professor would be a good start. — 69.47.185.144 14:48, 30 October 2005

If nobody can be an expert, then there should not even be an article, because the person who wrote it is wrong. The stuff in this article is WRONG! I happen to know that Trick or treating, the practice of dressing up in costumes and begging door to door for goodies, is comes from the late medieval practice of "souling," when poor folk would go door to door, receiving food in return for prayers for the dead. I do ot remember the source, I have no source to site, therefore I a not changing the articel, but someone should fix it.

I also do not see any evidence showing that "Some cities, citing public safety, have banned trick-or-treating outright. Reasons given often have to do with a supposed rise in kidnapping attempts during Hallowe'en, or because of a glut of "tricks" or vandalism. Occasionally a city will make a public proclamation that they as a community oppose trick-or-treating for health or religious reasons. Few cities have banned it for more than a few years without it being at least unofficially reinstated. In 2001 in the United States, trick-or-treating was much less popular than it had been in previous years, with many communities asking parents to restrict their children's activities if not banning it altogether."

Cite a source or show some evidence, prove it because I don't believe you. — 24.11.154.78 13:23, 1 November 2005

It does need references. I've heard about things like that before and wouldn't be suprised if it was true. However sources are needed.Falphin 00:54, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm an expert (though I prefer the word "authority"). See my book; it's loaded with sources. --Bentruwe 19:21, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Searching "banned trick-or-treating outright -Wikipedia" at Google seems to get some trick-or-treating bans, but we need verifiable sources to write them in the article.--Jusjih 10:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I am an American who has been living in Italy for 3 years, and they most definitely do not trick-or-treat! There are some parties (a handful of people maybe wear make-up or a witch's hat), decorations are sold in few stores and hung in various bakeries and bars, but kids do not get dressed up and they most definitely do not go door-to-door collecting candy. When I give out candy on the day, most people are confused as to why. All Saints Day is celebrated, but Halloween is very minimally recognized. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.32.142.35 (talk) 18:12, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

The Origin section seems a little garbled. Can someone who is familiar with the story clean it up, and perhaps cite sources? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.237.189.42 (talk) 20:44, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Central Pennsylvania

In Central Pennsylvania, each municipality sets the time for Trick or Treat Night and it often is NOT on Halloween itself. Sometimes it is a week before Halloween. Several years ago, a parents group worked to get each municipality in Lancaster County to adopt by rule that "Trick or Treat" would be 6 to 8pm on Halloween night, unless Halloween falls on Saturday or Sunday, in which case Trick or Treat is then on Friday. Some municipalities seem to have adopted the rule itself and others seem to adopt the the result of the rule on a year-by-year basis. I.e., in my township I know when next year's Trick or Treat will be, but others wait for the supervisors to declare it each year. All have followed the rule for the recent past. Municipalities in surrounding counties hold Trick or Treat at differing times. Does this happen anywhere else??? Acm acm (talk) 00:22, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Images

Why are all the images so old? Like, the top one is from 1979. Can't we get some more recent pictures? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.77.6.119 (talk) 00:44, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Why do the pictures have to be newer? —Chowbok ☠ 18:52, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Reasons for not promoting to good article

The first three paragraphs of history are great and meticulously referenced, but the last three paragraphs are not. If it is possible some references for these paragraphs would be helpful. The images could use some reformatting (consider making them smaller with more helpful captions) and the last three paragraphs of the History section might be better placed under a new heading. Finally the external links of the article need to be cleaned up as they are little help on the subject at all. Cedars 00:34, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I have been reading a collection of letters to and from Thomas Jefferson discussing the Barberry pirates. The word used over and over again to refer to the payments nations made to them was "treat." So, at least in the 18th Century, one proper definition of "treat" was "tribute." Further research is needed on the origin of the word because it would seem also to be the derivation of the word "treaty". BTW, when the letters of Jefferson and John Adams discussed whether or not war would be preferable to "treats", their discussion sounded a lot like Barack Obama's acceptance speech this week for the Nobel Peace Prize.Grandpa Phil (talk) 20:20, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Untitled

I have been reading a collection of letters to and from Thomas Jefferson discussing the Barberry pirates. The word used over and over again to refer to the payments nations made to them was "treat." So, at least in the 18th Century, one proper definition of "treat" was "tribute." Further research is needed on the origin of the word because it would seem also to be the derivation of the word "treaty". BTW, when the letters of Jefferson and John Adams discussed whether or not war would be preferable to "treats", their discussion sounded a lot like Barack Obama's acceptance speech this week for the Nobel Peace Prize.Grandpa Phil (talk) 20:25, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Wrongly(?) citing the BBC's view on Trick-or-treating

[....] but is still often viewed as an exotic and unwelcome commercialised import, with the BBC referring to it as "the Japanese knotweed of festivals" and "Making demands with menaces".[28]

This line I feel is not appropriately referenced, as the statement is not the view of the BBC but rather an editor and/or writer of their team. I feel that this should be cited on the author of the source, across the whole board of wikipedia Avash Pandit 05:00, 11 October 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Avashnirvana (talk • contribs)

Australia

I have lived in Australia since 1953 and while it's just my personal opinion trick-or-treating has never been "customary" here - especially in the period of 1950s to the 1990s as alluded to in the article. However commercial interests have managed to make it somewhat more prevalent in the last decade 2000-2010. I would like to see some proof that "trick-or-treating has been a customary Halloween tradition since at least the late 1950s" in Australia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.191.115.181 (talk) 20:51, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Guising

I have a real problem with the definition given here for "guising." Obviously this person never heard of or read Nigel Pennick. He wrote an excellent book on this subject titled "Crossing the Borderlines." Guising has nothing to do with trick-or-treating, or Halloween. The guisers were men and women who disguise themselves as creatures...their faces masked in wild and fearsome shapes, bodies clad in animal skins, skulls of various animals mounted on poles. While this may indeed sound like Halloween, guising was actually a ritual more commonly performed during the time of Midwinter in December, to honor the spirits and ask them to bring prosperity in the new year. This is an old ancient custom that goes back to the early days of man and civilization, and shamanic practices. Guising is a transformative experience where one steps out of time and into the Otherworld. Let's not confuse it with the modern day juvenile practice of tricking someone into giving you candy. Ocean1025 00:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC) Ocean1025

Maybe that is the origin of the word, but In Scotland the word "Guising" does refer to children going round the houses at Hallowe'en. 86.151.167.36 (talk) 13:39, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree, the modern usage of the word "Guising" is indeed as described. Scottish children generally do not do "juvenile" tricking and instead have to perform for their treat.

--62.249.233.80 (talk) 17:30, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

-I can attest to 'guising' in Scotland, which still thrives strongly all over the country. The child will perform a song, a poem - almost anything (the lowest form of talent being a string of jokes). My mother-in-law was born in 1921 and guised in her childhood around Inverness and Elgin. There is one issue that should be noted; guising on a Sabbeth is a tricky issue, especially on the West Coat and the Highlands. The solutions are either to only guise on your neighbours who you know will not be offended by the act, or to move the guising to either Saturday or Monday. Nextinthequeue (talk) 15:19, 1 November 2010 (UTC) • contribs) 15:01, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Misconceptions, Chiefly British

Trick-or-treating in the US now and when I was a child (in the 1980s) does/did not involve the 'trick' part of 'trick or treat!' implying an ACTUAL threat of any kind. When I was a kid, I didn't even 'get' that part of the phrase; it was simply something you said. One woman who came to the door when friends and I were trick-or-treating (we were maybe 7 or 8 or so) asked that we perform a 'trick' to get our 'treat' - as far as I knew at the time, that was what the 'trick' term referred to. The phrase's origins in the US might have invovled an actual (facetious?) threat, but it hasn't been that way since at LEAST my parents trick-or-treated in the 1940s and '50s. This is not to say that vandalism does not occur on Halloween, but that was not (in my parents' and my own experiences) associated with trick-or-treating (the teen perpetrators would've been embarrassed to participate in a 'kiddie' activity like trick-or-treating!). In any case, vandalism of that sort was relatively rare, usually consisted of relatively minor pranks like smashing pumpkins or draping toilet paper in trees, and was almost always directed at people *known* in some way to the perpetrators - high school athletic rival, hated teacher, etc. Counter-intuitively, perhaps, the 'vandalism' (again, on a small scale and essentially limited to pumpking smashing, TPing, etc.) seems to be REDUCING as Americans become more transient and neighborhoods lose their 'community' feeling. There also seems to be a RISE in teenagers (sometimes not even in costume) trick-or-treating just to get candy, particularly later in the evening after the younger trick-or-treaters have gone home. But still, the 'trick or treat' spoken by the teenagers does NOT imply a 'threat' if a 'treat' is not given; that's just not the cultural norm, and has never been since at least my own parents' childhoods (as I stated before). Finally, trick-or-treating has been dying, generally, as, again, neighborhoods have less and less of a neighborly, trusting feeling of solidarity and parents/mothers get more and more frightened (dare I say 'paranoid'?) re: their own neighbors.

BTW, by "British" I mean England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, NOT England exclusively (though the bulk of the venom does seem to come out of the last). I just wanted to make sure any English Wikipedians reading this did NOT think I meant "English" - I've seen English people (virtually) spitting and cursing about 'stupid Americans' lots of times when the word 'British' is used online by an American, even appropriately, and wanted to pre-emptively prevent such behavior. ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.231.17.38 (talk) 21:15, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Stupid American — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.157.80.59 (talk) 17:08, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not the place for childish and ignorant taunts. Your behavior is inappropriate. If you are not capable of treating others with respect then you should not post. --DavisJune (talk) 17:17, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Peanuts

Small request: How about Wiki-linking Peanuts, eh what? 108.1.71.44 (talk) 13:15, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Mention typical date and time in article

Currently, the article does not mention on which date and time trick-or-treating typically happens. So if nobody objects, I plan to add something like the following sentence:

Trick-or-treating typically happens between 5:30pm and 9:30pm[1] on October 31[2], although in some municipalities choose other dates[3].

--Stacalusa (talk) 00:19, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Now I added this information to the article.--Stacalusa (talk) 05:23, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

TRICK OR TREAT

TRICK OR TREATING IS PRETTY COOL — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.86.218.88 (talk) 01:15, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Move?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Like skiing, the "true" name of the activity here seems to be a gerund. Happy Halloween! (non-admin closure) Red Slash 02:11, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

---

• This is the basic name of the activity. The Football article isn't at Footballing or Playing football. Equally, this ought to be at the name of the activity rather than a verbification of it. — Smjg (talk) 14:51, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
• Comment: Somehow I do not understand your example of the football article as your rationale to explain removing the veribication. How do you explain the names of the articles cutting, figure skating, hiking, racing, human swimming, Swimming (sport), skiing and the like? Aren't they verbifications as well? AKAIK, there is no guideline that a verbication should automatically be removed. Or am I missing something here? Zzyzx11 (talk) 04:23, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
  • "Swimming" isn't a verbification. The word "swim" is primarily a verb. The same goes for your other examples. (OK, so "ski" might be primarily a noun, but as a noun it means the narrow board, not the activity. And maybe "racing" is an exception. If you feel that should be moved on the same basis, by all means take the discussion there.) — Smjg (talk) 22:04, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. Verbification? I think you mean a gerund, which is actually a noun construction of a verb. Not only is there no guideline advocating against article titles in gerund form, but in many cases they are considered more appropriate than the related verb form (see WP:NOUN). Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 03:57, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
  • No I don't. "Trick or treat", as the name of an activity, is a noun phrase. (My Oxford Paperback Dictionary and the majority of OneLook hits agree on this.) You can't have a gerund of a noun. You have to verbify it before you can take the gerund.
    To trick-or-treat is, literally, to play the game that is called trick or treat. I use the word "game" in a broad sense here, but I suppose it's just like the name of any game in that it's used as a noun. Why contrive the title of an article about a game to be a gerund of a verb meaning to play the game, when the norm is for it to be just the name of the game? — Smjg (talk) 22:04, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Sorry if I misunderstood your meaning. Perhaps this reflects regional variations in usage, but living most of my life in the United States I do not recall ever hearing "trick-or-treat" used as a noun in conversation, though I have often (at least annually) heard of (used as a verb) "trick-or-treating", to "trick-or-treat", or to "go trick-or-treating". My American Heritage Dictionary (4th ed. unabridged) gives "trick-or-treat" as an intransitive verb but does not list any related noun form. Is it possible the noun usage of the phrase is generally limited to British usage? Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 03:59, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

I also haven't encountered the usage of "trick or treat" as a noun as described, but personal experience is irrelevant. Have you any sources to demonstrate this usage? I'm all for following the sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by True Pagan Warrior (talk • contribs) 05:11, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

As I began to say, the majority of OneLook hits give it as being a noun. A few of these, and even the OPD, give it as only a noun. Dictionaries tend to choose what words/idioms to list based on usage. If you want first-hand evidence of actual usage, search on Google for "playing trick or treat", "doing trick or treat" and "a trick or treat" among other similar phrases. — Smjg (talk) 20:53, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

• A few further points:
  • The verb sounds to me like a slang term. At the least, I would say it's an informal usage.
  • We probably wouldn't be having this debate if it weren't for a random person unilaterally changing the name of the article once upon a time.

— Smjg (talk) 18:56, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Popularity

I actually referenced this entry in order to find out why the practice has all but died out. Imagine my surprise not to read a word along those lines! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.177.93.58 (talk) 01:34, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Maximum Age To Trick or Treat

As curious as any other person is, this subject is still a question to me. What is the maximum age to trick or treat and if there is such a thing. I have talked to a few people about this and they believe that is only mean't for Young children thru teen years. But what about the Adults??? Is that a no-no or can it be that we too can also participate????? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gothic spy (talk • contribs) 00:53, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree, and I strongly disagree with the introduction where it currently says " for people of any age". It ain't. 146.90.67.81 (talk) 13:34, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

There should be something in the article about the age limit aspects, since some areas of the world do have an age limit for trick-or-treating, though it's usually not enforced and/or is difficult to enforce. There can also be social aspects added regarding this. For a starting point, a lot people do not like it when older teenagers (for example, 16-year-olds and up) trick-or-treat. Flyer22 (talk) 03:37, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Here's a Today source on the matter talking about the age limit being 12 in some areas. Flyer22 (talk) 03:45, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

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Unpopularity in England

Although it is touched on briefly, I feel the article fails to document the extent to which ToT is *extremely* unpopular in most parts of England, where it has no historical tradition. At best it is perceived as adults allowing their children to go out begging (generally a taboo practice in England, and dangerous too) and at worst as a form of demanding money with menaces practised by teenage thugs. It leads to widespread antisocial behaviour and leaves some elderly people in genuine fear for their safety. The practice is pushed hard by supermarkets, particularly the Wal-Mart owned Asda. Some parents feel pressured to allow their children to do it through pester power, and of course some just don't care. Thanks America. --Ef80 (talk) 19:15, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

A social activity for 5 year olds leading to antisocial behavior and fear of safety of the elderly? Here's another nugget "At BEST, it is perceived as adults allowing their children to go out begging" What a nut you are. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.254.90.140 (talk) 16:01, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Just one example to illustrate the problem: http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/oxford-hm/messages/post/6N6c9obfmJNLP4mR4ulwBT Insults and personal attacks are unwelcome in the Wikipedia community, my anonymous friend. --Ef80 (talk) 12:54, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Three years later and the problems continue: http://www.thisisstaffordshire.co.uk/Halloween-Concern-elderly-OAPs-hiding-avoid-trick/story-17198503-detail/story.html --Ef80 (talk) 11:25, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

It seems you guys are doing it wrong. Tad Lincoln (talk) 01:57, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Happy Halloween?

Back in October 2009, Ef80 was insulted for nailing the reasons why Trick-or-Treating is unpopular with many [thinking and caring] people in England. For this cheap and nasty US import is pushed hard by supermarkets, who are keen to sell their cheap, nasty and dangerous outfits. By the way, is not "Happy Halloween!" a total contradiction in terms? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.20.232.39 (talk) 20:08, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

American Origin.

I qoute:

"In the United States and Commonwealth countries, trick-or-treating has been a customary Halloween tradition since at least the late 1950s."

It obviously first started in the USA then other countries copied the American style trick-o-treating. I doubt very much it just happen to become a tradition in the USA & Britain,Australia,Canda at he same time.

So i move to the motion Mr. Speaker that we point that out in the article. ChesterTheWorm (talk) 03:15, 27 October 2010 (UTC) ChesterTheWorm

It's certainly misleading, given that while British kids did celebrate Hallowe'en, it was not recognisably in the form of ToT until at least the 1990s. Nick Cooper (talk) 12:58, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

What is obvious and what is the verifiable truth are two different things. Find a citation that Trick-or-Treating originated in the States, or else it's not going in. _EricLeb⁰¹ (Page | Talk) 16:36, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

You cant change history it is undeniable holloween/trick or treating is American even in this article it points out "Trick-or-treating does not seem to have become a widespread practice until the 1930s, with the first U.S. appearances of the term in 1934" ChesterTheWorm (talk) 17:35, 31 October 2010 (UTC) ChesterTheWorm

I know this is an old discussion but I feel the need to clarify in here. Trick or treat is a phrase. That's it. The practice of going from door to door in costume to receive food/chocolate etc. is called guising (Scottish term short for disguising) which has been a common Halloween practice in Ireland and Scotand since the 19th century. Guising was first documented in North Amercia in the early 20th century, 1911 to be precise, when newspapers reported kids going guising around the neighbourhood. The phrase "trick or treat" is an addition to the practice of guising, with the phrase first documented in the 1930s. I went guising at Halloween in Northern Ireland during the 1970s when I was a kid (as did my mother in the 1940s and her mother before me), the phrase trick or treat was unheard of here until at least the early 1990s (movies/tv influence no doubt). In terms of the different level of celebration within the countries in the UK, in Ireland and Scotland Halloween has always been huge. England is very different as the English have predominantly celebrated Guy Fawkes night (November 5) instead. It is a common misperception to treat the different parts of the UK as being the same, certainly in regard to Halloween. Even the BBC (which is mainly from an English centric perspective) is guilty of this. SeanRodgers80 (talk) 21:01, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

We Wish You a Merry Christmas

The Christmas carol We Wish You a Merry Christmas contains the lines "Oh, bring us a figgy pudding" and "We won't go until we get some", which seems to be a similar kind of "extortion". --Palnatoke 22:11, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. Ritualized begging on holidays, especially Christmas and New Year's Day, is a tradition going back centuries. — Walloon 23:43, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Is this some kind of joke, or do people really consider that this song is about "extortion", or "Ritualized begging"? Come on folks, understand the songs true meaning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.44.131.0 (talk) 19:10, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Edits: Fall 2017

The idea that Trick-or-Treat spread eastward from the western United States is not borne out in the literature. The reference supporting this idea, which was deleted, was not a reference at all, but pointed to the Ancestry newspaper archive, which is comprised of many hundreds of local newspapers and literally millions of pages of text. The new reference is a scholarly work by an acknowledged expert on Halloween and its customs. According to Morton, the earliest recorded use of the phrase "trick-or-treat" is from a 1927 newspaper from Alberta, Canada (p 79). Oddjob84 (talk) 20:52, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

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Not practiced in UK until recent years

The article gives the wrong impression about its practice in Britain. Although according to the article trick or treat was done in Britain in the distant past, it was unknown in recent decades at least, and only became common in the past four or five years. The reason for this revival is in my opinion due to supermarkets and other shops seeing it as a pretext to sell more stuff - as if Guy Fawkes night and Christmas were not enough, backed up by the flood of American children's tv. Another example of American cultural imperialism. When Americans celebrate Guy Fawkes, then I will do Trick or Treat. 78.151.135.45 (talk) 21:23, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

It depends what you mean by "Britain". And, I suppose, what you mean by "Trick or Treat". If you mean, children dressing up and going round houses in their neighbourhoods to receive sweets, money etc. – a broad definition of "Trick or Treat" – then children in Scotland have been doing it continuously since who knows when. This is "personal research", I know, but I did it as a kid in the 1970s, which we called "guising". Every year in primary school we'd make masks and stuff in Art class. Kids came round my door in Glasgow in the 1990s, and still knew then that they were expected to do some sort of performance – a joke or song usually – to get stuff. There's a letter in today's Herald (a Scottish broadsheet newspaper) about guising in Dundee in the 1950s (although personally I take the "old Celtic customs" stuff with a pinch of salt). Recently, Scottish guising has become more like American trick-or-treating, probably due to the influence of TV and films (and no doubt aided by the fact that imported pumpkins are a damn sight easier to carve into lanterns than the traditional turnip, which was liable to produce RSI...). But kids dressing up, going round houses and getting stuff on Hallowe'en has been going on in parts of Britain for a long time. Scotliterary (talk) 22:30, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Do you know of any pre-20th century documentation of guising on Hallowe'en? Everybody assumes Hallowe'en guising has been around for centuries, but nobody offers any pre-20th century documentation. — Walloon (talk) 21:28, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't. It's widely assumed that guising has some form of connection to Celtic/pre-Christian festivals, and therefore to Samhain/Hallowe'en, but there is no evidence as far as I can see. It does appear that guising was a winter practice, connected with dark nights, but all the records I've seen reference to tend to place pre-modern guising between Christmas and Lent. Scotliterary (talk) 19:34, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

-As I mention below, Trick or Treat is referenced in the film 'Meet me in St Louis;, which is set in 1900. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nextinthequeue (talk • contribs) 14:56, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Apologies, I should have written in England, or southern england, rather than Britain. 89.243.83.43 (talk) 09:37, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

It's a bit unfair to blame the rise of TOT on supermarkets, people still have to want to buy the tat, dress their kids in it and send them onto the streets to beg. Markb (talk) 12:55, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

It gives that impression becuz they dont want American-Influances to be known so they mask it with some bullshit that has nothing to do with it just cuz it seems like it LoL ChesterTheWorm (talk) 21:54, 13 January 2009 (UTC) ChesterTheWorm

Only speak for England, not the rest of the UK. The practice of going from door to door in costume to receive food/chocolate etc. is called guising (Scottish term short for disguising) which has been a common Halloween practice in Ireland and Scotand since the 19th century. Guising was first documented in North Amercia in the early 20th century, 1911 to be precise, when newspapers reported kids going guising around the neighbourhood. The phrase "trick or treat" is an addition to the practice of guising, with the phrase first documented in the 1930s. Halloween has always been huge in Ireland and Scotland. England is very different as the English have predominantly celebrated Guy Fawkes night (November 5) instead. It is a common misperception to treat the different parts of the UK as being the same...we are very different especially when it comes to Halloween SeanRodgers80 (talk) 21:01, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

"it was unknown in recent decades at least, and only became common in the past four or five years". I did it as a kid in the seventies and early eighties in Cardiff and my siblings before that. DaioftheTriffids (talk) 23:23, 29 October 2020 (UTC)DaioftheTriffidsDaioftheTriffids (talk) 23:23, 29 October 2020 (UTC)