Talk:Transgender people and religion

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Untitled comments

I added a bunch of text that I'd been composing offline to replace the abysmal content at Transgender > Criticism > Religious Criticism. As I composed it I realized it would probably need to be moved elsewhere because it seemed like kind of a lot of content. Then this page was started so I copy and pasted my work here. I figured I needed more Hindu stuff and to tighted up the Islam a bit and it was basically done. I wasn't planning on spending much time at all on the responses of modern religious organizations because it seemed like there were a really really lot of them and it seemed like it might be mostly "noise" compared to bigger "conceptual" brush strokes.

I'd like to suggest most of the lede for this article should (1) focus on summarizing the content "in general" in a way that lives up to NPOV and (2) be put into a template so that the exact same text can appear here and in the transgender article as well. This way edits to the summary have to be consistent with a relatively big picture (the text must serve as a lede here) but also be a good summary of the controversies in the transgender article because otherwise that article will fill up with sloppy one-off edits with religiously justified transphobia.

I think the critical things to say in the lede are:

• Many religious people have strong feelings that their religion must be "against this" because they feel so strongly. If their religion gives expression to their moral intuitions then it must support their emotional reactions.
• In some cases they appear to have a doctrinal or organizational basis for this, but other times they really don't, and in some cases there are distinct grey areas.
• Summarize basic issues and controversies for major world religions in a paragraph or three.

-SemiAnonymous 09:37, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Wow, thanks. I think it's important that we include modern as well as historical views, since doctrine can change over time to adapt to shifts in society. They're obviously related, so this should be doable.

An NPOV summary is definitely what a lede should be. However, I don't think it should go in a template. Once this article is stable and there's a better section in the transgender article, sloppy one-off edits can be cleaned up or reverted because this article provides a better summary of the topic. Also, a section there might be shorter or longer or have slightly different wording.

That sounds like a good set of things to put in the lede. I like what you've done to start. Thanks again. --Alynna (talk) 01:29, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Disputed: Ethiopian eunuch citation does not support his being transgender, but gay

This sentence:

• It has been suggested, and disputed, that the first class of "eunuchs" were actually transgender people.

Uses this source:

• http://www.well.com/user/aquarius/thesis.htm

This is problematic on several counts:

1. this is not a reliable source. 2. the source does not support the sentence, as the author does not mention the possibility of the man being transgender, but the focus is on the eunuch being gay. 3. we do not know the reason for his being a eunuch, and so he may have been intersex or castrated, and while this may be reason to include him as one of the sexual minorities covered by LGBT(etc), it does not necessarily make him transgender.

It is significant that such a person was the first amongst the gentiles to be brought in to the new dispensation, but this says nothing specific about transgender beyond the inclusion of one outside the heterosexual/binary-sex axis. I am therefore placing a tag next to this citation to highlight the problem and give involved editors the opportunity to find a more appropriate source, or to rephrase the sentence accordingly. If you look at the edit I made about this here: Christianity and homosexuality#Views favorable to homosexuality, you will find a sentence relating to this matter, with a reliable source, and if I don't hear more on this, I will replace the sentence here with something similar to the one made there. Mish (talk) 01:14, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Disputed - unreliable source - YouTube home video

This whole paragraph has to go, under Mormonism:

• As a practical matter, the Mormon church will deny access to their temples to visibly gender variant people (though determined on a case by case basis as with all people) and will excommunicate any person who undergoes sexual reassignment surgery.[29] It has been suggested that these doctrines and practices grew out of the inherently patriarchal conception of Priesthood as being given only to men. The prospect of someone becoming visibly male to gain access to Priesthood is a bit tricky, and if a visibly male person who has already acquired Prisethood indicates that they plan to transition it would (in light of the 1995 proclamation) require as a matter of taking their gender identity as truly eternal that their Priesthood be stripped from them due to having been given in error - which is a very tricky issue indeed.[30]

The two citations are to a YouTube video of one individual giving their views on the matter in a home-video posted to YouTube. While YouTube can be a reliable source in some instances, this is not the case here, and unless the material can be substantiated with reliable sourcing, it cannot remain. Mish (talk) 01:37, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Disputed - Mormonism - irrelevant material, as this is not about views on transgender people

This paragraph is about Mormonism, not about LDS church views on transgender people:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints includes in its canon the Old and New Testaments as well as the Book of Mormon. The leadership of the LDS Church has the power to make pronouncements that carry the weight of God's voice in a manner reminiscent of the doctrine of Papal Infallibility except that new prophecy can change old doctrine.

One link doesn't work, and the other is all about LDS policy on prophecy, not transgender people. Mish (talk) 01:47, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Disputed - Mormonism views on homosexuality and marriage not about trans people

This section clearly states it is not directly about the article topic, and is WP:OR, as it is using the source quoted to give a meaning that is not in the source as per WP:SYNTH:

• On September 23, 1995 the President of the church, Gordon B. Hinckley stated in such a proclamation mostly aimed at gay marriage that "All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." This doesn't directly address the issue where someone agrees that their gender is eternal and unchanging but that it's based on their soul and does not match their body (indeed that that is why they need to change their body) but the same proclamation also noted "We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife" which focuses on procreative ability rather than gender identity as central to the Mormon notion of gender.

I have marked it accordingly. Mish (talk) 01:52, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

This article compromises various policies

The title suggests an inbuilt problematic relating to policy on NPOV - it is about one group of people's views about another group of people. It does not allow for the religious views of transgender people. The article Religion and homosexuality has its own problems (placing religion before the subject of the article, which should be the focus as 'Homosexuality and religion'), in order to avoid these, and to avoid the current imbalance, I am suggesting this article be renamed a more neutral 'Transgenderism and religion', with the subject of the article (transgenderism) coming first. Mish (talk) 23:00, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Page has now been successfully moved. Mish (talk) 09:33, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Mormon section

As all the Mormon info is tagged as dubious because of the sources being irrelevant or unreliable, the section is now going. Mish (talk) 10:04, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Merge template

Somebody placed a template to merge LGBT matters and religion into this article. I have placed a template to merge this article into LGBT matters and religion, as the topic would be better served by one article giving coverage of all aspects of LGBT matters and religion than two - one for homosexuality and one for transgenderism. Mish (talk) 20:36, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Rather than have this discussion in three places, let's use the one at Talk:Religion and homosexuality#Merge_template. --Alynna (talk) 00:37, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

OK.Mish (talk) 00:51, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Removed templates, as nobody seems to be discussing and there is no interest in either merge. Mish (talk) 10:22, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Christians

So do Christians (Mainly Roman Catholics and Protestants) forbid become another gender? Also, I want to know about their views on people who get all their gender removed. 75.27.38.167 (talk) 02:30, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Christians

So do Christians (Mainly Roman Catholics and Protestants) forbid becoming another gender? Also, I want to know about their views on people who get all their gender removed. 75.27.38.167 (talk) 02:36, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Being transsexual does not involve sexual acts.

This article is riddled with misconceptions. Blending sexual attraction/activity with thoughts of gender. I'd rather not edit the article myself. For those responsible for editing this page:

They should be aware that being homosexual or heterosexual are terms that refers to who a person is attracted to. That it also involves an acceptance of sexual activity with same/different gender, typically.

A trans gender person can be either Bi/Homo/Hetro - sexual, same as a "normal" person. Trans gender is an umbrella term that involves everything from cross-dressers to transsexuals and everything in between, who they attract to and have sex with is wholly unrelated to their perceived gender.

examples: Female cross-dresser is NOT lesbian because she dresses like a male. You can not tell what gender she is attracted to without asking her. A biological born male, that feels like a women (transsexual(male to female)) - would upon having sex with a female be viewed as a heterosexual act. But if the transsexual undergoes surgery, and repeats it, it will be viewed as a homosexual act.

Transgenderism and Homosexuality are two separate thoughts in an individual that are unrelated.

Transgenderism is an umbrella term and can not be used alone as defining anything other than the groups it involves. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.40.129.53 (talk) 18:47, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

You are correct in stating that transgenderism and sexual orientation are two separate issues but you must understand that in adding religion into the mix, there is actually some crossover in this article. You see, for those of a fundamentalist religious perspective, people are supposed to get married and make babies to (in their eyes) fulfill " 'God's' plan for humanity" (Be fruitful and multiply). In transgendered people, they will not (pre-op) or cannot (post-op) biologically create babies exclusively in a marriage due to the present limitations of science to make FtM or MtF people fertile post-operation. This is their same argument with homosexuality, that two men or two women cannot create babies without outside intervention. Thus violating the "sanctity" of heterosexual marriage. 99.114.188.200 (talk) 15:40, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: https://www.urj.org/what-we-believe/resolutions/resolution-rights-transgender-and-gender-non-conforming-people. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)

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References to transexuality/transgenderity in Buddhism are at least incomplete and refer mostly to Theravada Buddhism

The sources referring to Buddhism are mostly from Theravada Buddhism (most Buddhism in Thailand is also Theravada), therefore placing the focus mostly on ordained monks. Those who collaborated on that section of the article tend to emphasize that same-sex acts are somehow 'wrong' in the sense that they accumulate negative karma. I will not dispute that view, since I'm not familiar enough with Theravada Buddhism to understand their reasoning.

In Tibetan Buddhism, however, the Vinaya follows a different lineage and not only has more vows, but it has a few extra explanations, as seen, for example, in the Essence of the Vinaya Ocean by Je Tsongkhapa (note: not my own school, but we follow pretty much the same vinaya lineage as the Gelugpas). Vows are administered either to male monks or female nuns, so it is essential to know how someone identifies in order to apply the correct vows to them. An interesting aspect are the causes of immediate loss of the vows: two sexes appearing, or changing [sex] thrice. While I was taught by my own teacher that this is shrouded in magical myths, and therefore make no sense for us inhabitants of the 21st century, I personally think that those ancient masters who updated the Vinaya knew very well what they were talking about, and 'predicted' the possibilities offered by science today quite clearly. In other words: if someone presents both male and female sexual characteristics, they cannot be ordained (or their vows are lost) simply because the vows apply either to 'males' or 'females' — you cannot take both. So someone who is in transition might possibly fall into that category (they might have not opted for top and bottom surgery), and that would mean that their vows would be broken during transition. However, after transition, assuming that someone does all surgeries, it is admissible that they might retake their vows again, but now for the opposite gender.

The issue about 'changing [sex] thrice' is also interesting by itself. Here we are talking about someone who went from male to female, back to male, and to female again. Although, again, my own teacher talked about magical myths permitting such changes, it's quite obvious that in the 21st century people can freely transition and de-transition. In such circumstances, if they take ordination vows, this seems to imply that those vows will still be valid after two such transitions. It is assumed that additional vows will be taken when one's gender/sex is 'female', and that those additional vows will be dropped when one's gender/sex is 'male'. But if someone is constantly changing gender/sex, then it is assumed that they will become hopelessly 'confused' about which vows to keep or drop (not to mention the practical issue of needing to change monasteries every time one's gender/sex changes), and, therefore, they will lose their vows.

This has some interesting implications. In Tibetan Buddhism, for beginners, there is really absolutely no discrimination in terms of gender — all sentient beings with the Eight Freedoms and Ten Advantages have a 'precious human birth', and, as such, can follow the Dharma, practice, and attain enlightenment just as the Buddha did. Those freedoms and advantages do not imply a gender (or a lack of gender), so there is no limitation set to any kind of person, cisgender or transgender, to practice and become enlightened — all are able to do so. It is only in regard to certain Tantric practices that the actual gender/sex is important. I cannot go into details here, since I have no authority to talk about such practices, nor am I familiar with them except in very broad and vague terms, but what is certain is that they are not fundamentally necessary to the practice. They just accelerate the practice, making enlightenment achievable in a (relatively) short time, i.e. within a single lifespan. However, the actual 'speed' of the practice depends much more on the person and how they apply themselves to the practice, rather than knowing a lot of techniques and tricks to 'make practice work faster'.

What the Tibetan Vinaya says is that you can be transgender (all kinds of transgender) and practice to reach the same state as the Buddha reached, but some kinds of transgenderity will not be able to receive ordination and/or initiation into certain High Tantric practices, therefore potentially making one's practice 'harder'. What 'kinds' of transgenderity are therefore excluded from full ordination? Most notably, intersex individuals who have very ambiguous sexual characteristics and who do not identify with a binary gender; genderfluid persons (because they will 'change gender' much more than three times); genderqueer and non-gendered persons (i.e. those who reject the binary gender completely and do not identify with any gender, therefore making it impossible to know which of the vows will apply to them); transgender persons who have partially changed (surgically or otherwise) their sexual characteristics but not all of them, thus still exhibiting a mix of sexual characteristics from both (binary) sexes, either deliberately (by choice) or simply because they are awaiting their final surgeries; and so forth.

Finally, those who show severe mental disturbances ('not having all faculties') should also not be taught. While this is mostly meant to apply to those who are mentally disabled in some form, it can also be applied to those suffering from deep depression and/or similar mental conditions. In particular, as I was explained by my teacher — who had direct experience in working with people suffering from psychotic delusions — there are very extreme mental states for which certain kinds of practice can be much more harmful than beneficial. If someone suffers from delusion or megalomania, visualisation techniques where one pictures themselves as an enlightened being might aggravate their condition. This is the main reason why one ought to refrain from teaching those who suffer from severe mental disturbances: not out of discrimination, but compassion towards those for whom the Dharma practice might be harmful. Why do I mention this? Because many gender dysphoric people might also suffer from other mental issues, like severe depression or even some psychotic conditions and manias, often induced through trauma, and this would mean that a kind teacher ought to refrain from teaching them — again, not because of transphobia, but because the practice might aggravate their mental states. By contrast, once those mental issues are resolved — through medication and therapy — such persons can receive the Dharma teachings and practice, just like any other person, no matter what gender they identify with, or what physical sexual characteristics they might possess.

Note that this will not apply to other kinds of ordination and/or taking pratimoksha vows or bodhisattva vows. In other words: nothing will prevent a transgender person to practice and attain the same state as the Buddha, and there are a plethora of methods and techniques that transgender people can safely practice without any problem (and any teacher worthy of that name ought to teach them those methods and techniques without prejudice), and those can be acquired without full ordination vows, even though, in theory, all practitioners of the Diamond Vehicle are supposed to keep all Vinaya vows, as if they are ordained monks, except those that are strictly related to monastic life (celibacy, clothing, possessions, and so forth).

Sandra M. Lopes (talk) 01:11, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Transgender/ Hijra people in Hinduism

Hello. I am interested in improving the section "Hinduism." I would initially like to improve the article by including more information starting by including the term Hijras as transgender people are referred to in the language of Hindi.

Secondly, I would like to improve this article by including more specific information about Hijra such as how Hijras identify themselves as incomplete men, and how if they are not born with a "defective" organ and as most are not, they must make it so by emasculation.

Once I am granted permission to implement this change, I will further input more information about Hijras. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AMishra19 (talk • contribs) 17:37, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Satanism section

A recent edit added information on what seems to be a sect of Satanism. Somebody want to evaluate this? The bulk of the paragraph is c&p from an incredibly poorly written pdf. I can't get past the errors to decide whether this info warrants inclusion in the page (I strongly suspect it does not). Thank you! Jessicapierce (talk) 18:03, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

The edit you refer to was added by 97.124.109.230, and is both WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE. In addition, it had a misleading edit summary. I have reverted it, and issued a level-1 warning on the User's talk page. The IP user is welcome to discuss this or any way to improve the article. Mathglot (talk) 09:56, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

"Mogan Peer review" 3-13-19

This article there are a lot of things that are good about it but then there are some things that can be improved.One thing that is really good about this article is that I like how the article splits up into religions and talks about how each one connects to transgenders and there feelings towards trans. Another thing is sourcing the sources seem very reliable towards this topic. I think the length of this article is a good amount, its not to much but not to short for the reader. The wording in this article is very good also to were people can understand what the article is trying to say and mean. Lastly with the positive part about this article is that I liked how it "flowed" and how it was not all over the place, it had a nice flow to the article. Now, with the improvements it needs. One thing it could have done better or needs to change is that some regions do not have as much evidences as others so that can come off as being bias in a article. Also another change that could be made to better this article is that since there was not a lot of facts to back up some regions I think they could have tried to find better research on the regions that lacked evidence. But, overall I believe this is a great article to start from and yes it needs its improvements but what article doesn't you know. The article made great points to connect to transgender people and that was a plus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonahx11! (talk • contribs) 00:48, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

DignityUSA

Moved out of the entry because it is sourced entirely to primary sources with no secondary sources to establish notability/weight, etc:

Although the church has no official doctrine on transgender individuals, the LGBTQ community has tried to form and influence positive beliefs into the church’s teachings and beliefs. DignityUSA is an example of an LGBTQ organization advocating for change in the Catholic church's teaching. DignityUSA believes that LBGTQ individuals can and should "express our sexuality and/or gender identities and expressions in a loving, life-affirming manner that is in keeping with Christ's teaching," promoting the belief that one can be both Catholic and LGBTQ. When addressing transgender individuals specifically, DignityUSA claims they have the same goal of promoting acceptance and belonging in the church. When addressing the Trump administration's military ban on transgender individuals, Linda Roberts, treasurer of DignityUSA, Co-Chair of the group's Transgender Support Caucus and identifying transgender women, claims that the military ban is a violation of the Equal Protection Clause and later states "we [DignityUSA] stand with those fighting for the right to serve and continue their careers openly in their true gender. They must be safe, free from harassment, and supported by their command structure.” With organizations like DignityUSA, transgender and other LGB individuals are making grounds in the church to change its views and making it possible for the LGBTQ community to practice the faith fully and without discrimination.

References

[moved by:] -sche (talk) 04:02, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Lead and Title

I see there is a template on this page (dated March 2019) asking for comments on the lead. I agree that it's not reflective of the article information. Instead of a title of "transgender people and religion" I think a better article title would be "views of transgenderism in religion". Then the lead could say something like "Religions have a range of views of transgenderism and their participation in religious ceremonies and roles." Fred (talk) 15:29, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

I would not use the word "transgenderism" as that term has been used by anti-trans folks to suggest that being trans is an ideology. "Transgender people" is preferred. Funcrunch (talk) 16:37, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

SYNTH and false misrepresentation and misinterpretation of sources in the African religious beliefs section

I came here trying to link to an anticle I created and another article I'm currently working on. The first thing that hit me was the lead. Reading it and being pretty knowledgeable about some of these religions, I immediately knew the notability of this article is questionable at best. Anyway, I proceeded to the relevant section just to read its content and sources, and I could not believe my eyes. Many parts of this article which I have had the opportunity to read so far including the African religious beliefs section which brought me here, are based on WP:SYNTH. WP:OR: misirepresentation and misinterpretation of source. The duality or androgyny (which also has nothing to do with LGBT by the way—as one can just be born that way without trying to look like one by dressing up) belief system of these African traditions have nothing to do with LGBT or transgender. They are about respecting the feminine and the masculine energy (duality). If anything, intersex would be more relevant than transgender. Because in accordance with the cosmogny of these people, intersex were created or born that way, whilst in transgender, one has to make the choice to physically change to how they feel they should have been born. Notice also that, the editor(s) kept using the almost entirely single source Conner & Sparks (1998) but did not give us the full details of the source. We are required to give the full details of the source so that others can find and verify it. Over the years, I have come across so much POV pushing in many of our LGBT articles. Only a nuke or stub can help with the problem as it wil take years to iron out the POV and the factually dubious. I am removing this section and its false entries from this article. I cannot even believe the editor(s) misreprensented Marcel Griaule work on the Dogon. I pasting below the false text removed from the article - see below. Terrible! Absolutely terrible! Senegambianamestudy (talk) 11:22, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

African religious beliefs

The Akan people of Ghana have a pantheon of gods that includes personifications of celestial bodies. These personification manifest as androgynous and transgender deities, and include Abrao (Jupiter), Aku (Mercury), and Awo (Moon).

According to the creation myth of the Dogon people the first 8 people on the earth, 4 men and 4 women, started the 8 Dogon families through a special arrangement with Amman where they could fertilize themselves, being dual and bisexual.

The mythology of the Shona people of Zimbabwe is ruled over by an androgynous creator god called Mwari, who occasionally splits into separate male and female aspects.

Please can you put back this information which seems to be. sourced

I think some of this deletion is not founded as I have found this source and checked with persons of african descent the accurracy of the statements. Furthermore, you intervened on the francophone and the anglophone encyclopedia to have this information deleted. and I think the information should be restaured, or at leat some of it as it is accurately sourced. 14:05, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Here is where this was done on fr-wikipedia : diff Nattes à chat (talk) 14:07, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Technoculture 320-01

This article is currently the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 January 2024 and 10 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jocelyn826 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Sissle.

— Assignment last updated by Bbalicia (talk) 00:45, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Technoculture 320-03

This article is currently the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 January 2024 and 10 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Nicolelaurenmarquez (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Evelynm333.

— Assignment last updated by Momlife5 (talk) 15:51, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Sikhism section

While the addition of a section about Sikhism is a good one, right now the section is mostly explaining what Sikhism is (which is not necessary, the article does not explain any of the other religions) and the editors' personal opinions. Also is "Sikhisms" the correct plural? It does not seem like it's used in many places but I've left it for now. Obviousalchemist (talk) 00:29, 25 March 2024 (UTC)