Talk:Torture during the Algerian War/Archive 1

Copy edit

This article should be re-written for clarity. Actual information on the existence, scope and methods of torture in algeria is buried amidst long quotations, many of which are of doubtful relevance. Furthermore, the article makes a lot of unsubstantiated claims, which are not properly documented. E.g. "Torture was a frequent process in use since the beginning of the colonization of Algeria, which started in 1830." While this may be true (I have no detailed knowledge about the history of Algeria or of French Colonialism), the article doesnt offer any source. Similarly, the article claims that "The systemic use of torture lifted a national controversy which has had lasting effects on French and Algerian society;" but then fails to explains what these effects are.

While the article contains many quotations from various authors, they are so numerous, so long and so close to one another that they obscure rather than enhance the article. It reads more like a collage of quotations denouncing torture, than like an encyclopedic article.

165.123.184.227 01:17, 17 February 2007 (UTC)Zev

Changed a few things based on your remarks. The only thing I wonder at is your remark that the article fails to explain "lasting effects on French and Algerian society" (although I agree the section could be extended). Isn't the fact that it can still lift a controversy 40 years later, and that Marcel Bigeard still denie it, a sign of it? What about, but this could also be extended, Jean-Marie Le Pen's reaction to it? Maybe I am more aware of that because of my reading of the sources, but it really seems obvious. Finally, the methods employed by the Algerian security services themselves, in particular during the Algerian Civil War, could be, although I dislike that, some sort of Oedipus complex - do to others what they've done to you... Isn't the sole fact that this article exists a proof of the "lasting effect" of this controversy? About the quotes, yes, this is deliberate. One could, I'm sure, go looking for more sources on the number of people tortured or the methods used. But I have low interest in the methods used (apart if they can learn something other than simple "voyeurism"), and beside, the fact that nobody has been judged for these crimes, the fact that the French state repeatedly denied it, makes it difficult to find any reliable source on the matter. Maybe the Algerian state has something on that, but I doubt, seeing the methods it itself has used, that it would have carried an investigation on the matter. The only thing you have is direct testimony, and this does not replace something like the Valech Report for Chile. Last thing: do not forget, Wikipedia:Be bold, and if you think your changes might be too massive, why not propose on this talk page a re-write? Wikipedia articles are not the work of one person, but cooperative work, and if you lack knowledge, you can still help on syntax and global understanding and coherence of the text. Thanks for your remarks, cheers! Tazmaniacs 01:56, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, a sub-section on its lasting (or lingering) effects would make for a good wrap-up of the article. This is not an area in which I have expertise, but I'm sure there must be such commentary available to draw on for references. Askari Mark (Talk) 02:18, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Tazmaniacs - your energy does you credit. I think it was good idea to stop clogging up other pages with this stuff and to start a page dedicated to this subject. I think that a sense of injustice and violation is appropriate by those who have been affected by these events. I believe it has been clear for a long time that they happened and the denials by the French state and her officers has probably just amplified the feelings i referred to earlier. As a french speaker myself i have easier access to the sources you reference than many and have tried to put into better english the events and ideas you relate. Be careful when you make links to things like the Oedipus complex and undermine your arguement by suggesting a meaning that your reference does not support (refers to stage of psychosexual development in childhood in which children of both sexes regard their father as an adversary and competitor for the exclusive love of their mother). The difficulty as, i think, you suggest above is the paucity of sources which refer to the same specific events. This makes it very difficult to justify a point of view as neutral (NPOV). Many of your sources are not just in French (what other language would they be in afterall) but are not primary sources themselves (they are journalists views). It is very difficult for the English-speaking audience of this page to assess the objectivity of French newspaper/journal articles. So your energy for this subject may be making your contributions happen but also undermining their credibility by leading you to represent one point-of-view over others. This is not why people come to Wikipedia and is against one of its 'absolute and non-negotiable' principles. Facius 15:50, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

It is interesting that i could find no such page in the French Wikipedia which is where all the heat and interest on this subject might legitimately be focussed. Indeed the whole subject is quite quiet there where, presumably, more informed discussion might ensure better balance. Facius 10:50, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Salvages?

Bigeard, who qualified FLN activists as "salvages", claimed torture was a "necessary evil."

Would this be savages, or is it a mistranslation, or is their some other meaning of salvages in this context? --86.145.222.229 01:45, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

It is a spelling mistake. I've just spent a good amount of effort cleaning up spelling and punctuation errors. I doubt I caught them all, though. Askari Mark (Talk) 01:52, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your help! Tazmaniacs 01:56, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

More cleanup please

I made it halfway through the lead and already can't figure out who said what to whom. Rmhermen 04:01, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Is it really that confusing? Is it really the syntax, or unfamiliarity with the subject and the persons? Names can be confusing: I have a hard time when I read some articles to which I am completely foreign to. Tazmaniacs 04:24, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I spent forever just trying to render this into something approaching idiomatic US English usage, but it still needs much more work. There is also massive repetition of the same incidents, which does not enhance readability.Actio 05:55, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your attention. Please do copy edit ! To avoid repetition of the same incidents, you can use a (Torture during the Algerian War#title of subsection|See below) system (using wikilinks). Tazmaniacs 09:01, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Balance tag

I believe this article is unbalanced in its coverage and may be violating WP:SOAPBOX or WP:POV. While an article on the French use of torture during the Algerian War is fine (though the title should really be used to reflect that the article is entirely about the French use of torture), there appears to be no attempt in the article to present context other than an emphasis that the French actions were wholly despicable. I don't mean that there should be an apologist perspective added, but I believe there should at least be a presentation of the French authorities' justification/rationalization of their policies (rather than summing it up as "counter-insurgency" (with appparently no representation of what the insurgency was or meant) with critics saying it was centuries-old oppression for oppression's sake/aren't-colonial-governments-inexplicably-nasty sort of thing - I'm sure the French authorities didn't present it as so.)

Just as e.g. early 21st century US government justification/rationalization of rendition flights is important to critically historically understanding that policy as much as condemnation of that practice by human rights groups is, so is the French authorities' perspective of the use of torture in Algeria is. At the moment, I don't see this in the article - there is hardly anything on the French view of the FLN (apparently nothing on the view that the group was a terrorist organization) and their involvement in the Café Wars (e.g. bombs in civilian cafes as portrayed in The Battle of Algiers[1]). There is in fact hardly any mention of the FLN - more mention is given to the less important OAS. The article even does not mention that OAS was a French nationalist group but says more than once that the OAS was a terrorist group - was the FLN not seen as a more significant terror threat by the authorities?

In addition, what does the subsection "Massacres in metropolitan France" have to do with this article (which is specifically about torture in the Algerian War )? It may be relevant if the title is changed.

The final section ("The French School") also appears to be odd - the weight of these claims need to be tempered here with reference to the US School of the Americas? (the idea of a "French School" appears to be derived from the "US school"). Otherwise it appears that the article is making the claim that the French were solely or primarily responsible for training death squad and torture tactics to Latin American regimes (a role more commonly given to the School of the Americas).

Bwithh ^{Join Up! See the World!} 08:49, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

The idea that this article somehow needs 'balance' is totally absurd. Balance the French need to torture the resistance versus the local population's preference that they not be tortured? Balance French versus Algerian torture? There was no torture on the Algerian side. A bit of terrorism maybe. The war killed 1 million Algerians and maybe 20k French. There was no balance. And torture is from an entirely neutral point of view, evil. So step off jackbrown

You are encouraged to explain the context better. The article has still lot to be improved. Concerning your claims concerning OAS/FLN, I think you rather be more careful. "French nationalist" is an euphemism for a far right group that did a series of bombings and tried to assassinate Charles de Gaulle. Concerning the section in "metropolitan France", are you trying to say that the Algerian War had no effects in metropolitan France? So that it should cover only acts committed on "Algerian" territory? The problem is, that territory at the time was a French department. You really ought to be careful about what you saying, you don't seem to be very familiar with the subject. The final section does not claim that France was "solely" responsible. It gives an account of important works recently done. There are other things that could be add, such as that Paul Aussaresses taught the Americans such techniques. You seem to ignore the fact that the School of the Americas largely drew up on The Battle of Algiers... In other words, apart of your ideological disagreement, I don't really see what facts you are disputing with legimacy; in any case, you need to make more convincing arguments and find sources. Again, the article is far from being perfect. Fare well, Tazmaniacs 17:27, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Meanwhile, I recommend you to read this account from Le Monde diplomatique on presentation of the war and of the use of torture. Tazmaniacs 18:33, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Tazmaniacs - beware going to far. Bwithh has some good points which if used rather than refuted would make your page contributions to the stronger. You acknowledge this yourself so beware 'coming across' as defensive. I agree that some OAS/FLN context may help, but afterall the page is about torture not the conflict, so keep it short. Who were involved and why does not justify torture. I think that he is claiming that Algeria was part of metropolitain france because it had a departmental code, this is (i think) as misunderstanding on his part of the meaning of metropolitain in this case. Beware of suggesting his mistake may be about the depth of his knowledge when you are writing in a language not your own and using words with special french context. His comments about French school seem appropriate since the article does not refer to any other schools or how they interacted and influenced each other. The only link to the school seems to be your comment here which is not in the article. Your link to suggested reading is only open to subscribers so unavailable to most readers of the wikipedia. So, in summary, I suggest that you re-read the NPOV tutorial and remember that very few English speakers will have any context or detail on the events you describe so comments will likely be on style and meant to be constructive. I suggest that the PoV of most English speakers on this subject will be neutral. Facius 16:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

On the other hand, it was riveting to read of the connections to the Argentine Dirty war and at least one of the Argentine military leaders responsible for it, something of which I was wholly ignorant. I am not at all sure that the POV of most English readers (not speakers... i mean those likely to find their way here) would be neutral, since the article, for whatever reason, perfectly aligns with the John Yoo/Jay Bybee/David Addington/Dick Cheney rationales for what they have made US policy and practice (except that the utility of torture, a la ticking time bomb, rather than the psyop value of torture is of course relied upon here)Actio 06:05, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

As to the suggestion that the article be titled the French use of torture or something of that sort, it seems fairly clear that the systematic use of torture was put into practice on the basis of official French military and perhaps civilian (state) policy. The Algerian rebels were, of course, more likely to engage in retail terror, i.e., bombings. To discuss official state policies (or blindess toward) torture and detainee abuse does not require an equal amount of attention to the crimes of the insurrectionaries, but only a clear indication that they existed; this article explains, if nothing else, the exportation of such tactics to Paris, to kill policemen. This is the 'asymmetrical warfare' we have come to hear so much about. I think the Tocqueville section offers a historical perspective on French colonial rule as well.Actio 06:13, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

You can watch the documentary about these connexions with the Dirty War (and Fort Bragg) here: La Escuela Francesa, escuadrones de la muerte (interviews in French, English & Spanish). Tazmaniacs 08:59, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by the justification of torture through ticking-time bomb scenario. R. Branche's thesis is precisely that it was not used for intelligence, but as a mean to break the morale of the population (i.e. terror). Tazmaniacs 09:05, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for lack fo clarity , I mean that the excuse given by the military (and those in the French state in the chain) was the imperative of saving lives, which is the ticking bomb scenario, and which is the only excuse offered by the US apologists:

Aussaresses declared that torture had been directly ordered by Guy Mollet's government. Paul Aussaresses was condemned for "apologism for war crimes," because he had justified the use of torture, claiming it had helped to save lives. thanks for the reference above, haven't been able to follow it up yet (work pressures) Actio 02:50, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Lead too long

I think the intro is too long. There should probably only be 2-4 paragraphs prior to the table of contents - enough so that someone can get the essence of the article, but without excessive detail. The current one is peppered with details, facts and figures. These should certainly be in the article, but would fit better below the TOC, where they can be put in context. The intro should be understandable and easily readable to people with little to no background on the subject - like a two minute television news story. -- 15:52, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

We have a brief intro, a huge overview and then a summary which is self confessed by the author to just be a copy from the overview which is itself too long. I will remove the summary and shorten the overview unless i hear otherwise. I will try to save interesting or importnant pieces of content and reposition them in the very long body of the article. I have already gone through removing references to films recounting the events and statements about political parties being split on this issue. Facius 10:58, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

from the Viet Minh reeducation camps to the Arzew Psychological Warfare School

The "école de guerre psychologique d’Arzew" near Mostaganem, French Algeria was a psychological warfare academy ("une école de formation des cadres sur la guerre psychologique"). Most of the teachers were Indochina veterans who had experienced the Viet Minh reeducation camps from which 3/4 of the French Union POWs died or disappeared (especially the south vietnamese). These veterans experienced the political commissioners psychological work. A famous commissioner working for the Viet Minh and torturing the French was the French communist party militant fr:Georges Boudarel known for the Boudarel Affair. Paris By Night 16:48, 4 June 2007 (UTC)ment

I understand that the technique of electrical torture was developed in the 1930s in Frnch Indo China and the practice of "Tiger Cages" on the island of Palo Condor by the French. The usual contention is that the French developed knowledge of torture by being the victims of it. This is difficut to believe- many of the Foreign Legion immediately after the War would have been Nazi fugitives and the French establishment full of collaborators like Mitterand. "Expertise" in torture is generally gained by giving rather than receiving and I suggest that this was the case in Indo-China too. Streona (talk) 01:16, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I translated fr:Georges Boudarel at Georges Boudarel.

Streona, Mitterand was a very unusual "collaborator"; the Foreign Legion did harbour former SS, but saying that a large proportion of it was composed of former Nazis is quite another thing; and the present torture practiced by the USA stem from courses where people were taught to resist torture and prepare for it. Rama (talk) 19:16, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I apologise for calling him a collaborator, but he was an official of the collaborationist Vichy regime and had a pre-war political background involved with far right groups. I think you have put it very well "...the present torture practised by the USA stem from courses where people were taught to resist torture and prepare for it." Yeah, right. This prgramme to resist torture they also appear top have shared with various repressive South Amercan regimes as well. I am sure Pinochet and Videla were really concerned that their policeman might be tortured- but by whom? Despite this claim, the US continue to claim that it is not really torture anyway. As for the composition of the Foreign Legion- it is hard to say what any of their backgrounds were, although many NCOs have traditionally been German, because that is the point of La Legion Etrangere, but it would have been likely after the Second World War that a lot of men with something to hide may have had experience with the Axis -if not necessarily the German forces --Streona (talk) 16:16, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Repression in metropolitan France section

I have a little problem with this section, because it doesn't have anything to do with torture, but mainly the Paris massacre of 1961. If the article was titled "Bad things the French government did during the Algerian War" it would fit right in, but in this article I feel it is a little misplaced. Carl Logan (talk) 18:08, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Are you claiming that during the weeks preceding the massacre of 17 October 1961 no torture was enacted in Paris by police forces under the orders of Maurice Papon? Tazmaniacs (talk) 08:16, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

No, what I claim is that in the section contains around 1,335 words, of those only a 65 word long section is directly about the use of torture, the rest is about varies other atrocities and abuses. Carl Logan (talk) 15:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with Carl Logan. A portion of the third paragraph is all that deals with this article's topic. If there was torture during the 1961 massacre, that could be documented as such. Otherwise, essentially all of this section is irrelevant to the article and does not belong.Truth or consequences-2 (talk) 13:12, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

With there being no progress on this section, I revisited the linked articles, including that on the Paris massacre of 1961 and the Talk thereof, the French-language pages, and such sources as I could get a hold of including a few not yet cited. I conclude that there is very little hard data about torture in metropolitan France, though two instances by the French are claimed as at least "rumored" according to one source, and there is similarly limited evidence about how much the FLN resorted to torture within France. Certainly, the amount of torture in France was tiny relative to the numbers involved within Algeria, and the metropolitan France section did not warrant such a large share of this article, all the more as most of it had nothing to do with torture. I have reduced and edited the section accordingly, knowing that it was essentially a copy of the article on the Paris massacre of 1961 that remains intact, and linked herein, for those who care to see other details.Truth or consequences-2 (talk) 17:42, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Sources

I noticed that all the references are to websites. I wrote an essay on torture not long ago, and found these books very useful:

Alistair Horne - A Savage War of Peace; Darius Rejali - Torture and Democracy; Marnia Lazreg - Torture and the Twilight of Empire.

They're pretty impartial texts, which mainly deal with the facts of what happened. PlasticFork (talk) 15:01, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes - "A Savage War of Peace" does present an even-handed account of the atrocities on both sides during the war. An issue almost totally avoided in this Wikipedia article is the widespread use of torture by the victorious FLN against pro-French Muslim Algerians (the Harkis who served with the French Army, and their families) immediately following independence. Alistair Horne notes that estimates of those killed under harrowing circumstances in this "settling of accounts" range up to 150,000. None of which of course justifies the use of torture by the French forces during the actual fighting.210.246.8.66 (talk) 10:50, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

French and American Schools

I have trouble with the usage of "pathway" in this section. I think what's meant is "approach," is it not? "Pathway" appears in English science writing ("neural pathway"), and to mean a pedestrian footpath, but the meaning as used here feels like a translation. Less annoying, but perhaps more important, is the premise that there are clear cut schools of state-sponsored torture. No doubt some political analysts think so, but this entry doesn't make the case. It might be better simply to point out the similarity rather than raising it to the level of schools of thought or practice. Mark Underwood (knowlengr) 00:44, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

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