Talk:Tigray War/Archive 5

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Archive 5

Kobo woreda or town?

@EastThermopolis: In your edit today, you linked to Kobo (woreda). Did you perhaps mean Kobo, Ethiopia (a town)? Platonk (talk) 18:58, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Splitting of the Government Counter-Offensive

By this point the TDF-OLA (Counter)Offensive section should probably be split to allow a section for the goverment counter-offensive or at least be grown to add more info there I think. Also the main article for said former offensive needs to be updated too most probably. What do you guys think? AvalonXD (talk) 22:28, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

If you understand all the 'action', go ahead and make a change. Surely someone will revert or complain if the sources you use don't verify the content.

By the way, does anyone know which "four other regional governments also made a call to arms"? Both source articles say "The governments of four of the country’s 10 regions also called upon Ethiopians to mobilise to fight against the Tigrayan forces, state-affiliated Fana TV said." But neither source mentions which, and neither links to the purported "state-affiliated Fana TV" information. Platonk (talk) 22:47, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Section names and territorial claims

With the recent government offensive what should be the new section names be for offensives and when should the article say a town/city was captured? Most of the cited sources all say they're "claims" usually because of the communications blackout even if both sides admit it. Ue3lman (talk) 03:05, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Is it appropriate to add to the template that the Ethiopian central government has active PRC support?

According to at least on article from the Asia Times[1], Beijing (alongside Iran, but I suspect the world's largest economy will be of greater consequence) has actively stepped into the absence left by a UAE hamstrung by the Biden Administration's reluctance to export to a foreign country engaged in famine-based collective punishment, and risk a repeat of the domestically unpopular US policy stance on Yemen. Since the recent Nagorno-Karabakh war appears to stand as a decisive example on how foreign arm imports, especially drones, can turn the tide of a battlefront, I would normally request that the page be unlocked in order to add this consequential information ... except I'm reluctant to go on allegations from a single source. Could any other editors confirm, preferably from Amharic and Mandarin language sources, that the PRC is delivering drones to the Ethiopian Armed Forces? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:6011:4306:6E0A:85FE:F67E:7BB9:7CC (talk) 00:52, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Sounds like a hot potato. Note that this is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. It isn't vital that we immediately post news or update articles based on early newspaper articles or news broadcasts. In fact, it is discouraged. Platonk (talk) 03:28, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

CHANGE THE NAME!

Every source calls this conflict the Ethiopian civil war, can we request a name change to Ethiopian Civil War (2020–2021)? It’s not up to us to decide the name of this event 78.185.80.35 (talk) 12:32, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

There have been two discussions (in Novemeber 2021) about this, of which both failed to change the name. Don't see anything that's changed now that will warrant another discussion, especially when the frontlines are now on Tigray's borders. Ue3lman (talk) 06:18, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Tigray War related page

Please see the discussion on the 2021 Tigray offensive talk page as it relates to the Tigray War. Ue3lman (talk) 06:13, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

In the news nomination

{{ITN note|Tigray War|date=6 November 2021}} The below 2 items are currently blocking this article from being posted to front page, see the nomination link above for info. - Indefensible (talk) 04:21, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

The general problem with the article is that too many editors feel that "the most important info" or whatever that has recently appeared on mainstream media news has to be added to the main article, rather than accepting that this is a huge topic, and details should generally go to sub-articles, and generally only summaries and key points should come back to this article. We also did have some particularly problematic editors early on, as can be seen on the talk page archives, although that got more or less under control. There were also difficulties accepting (or understanding?) the basic Wikipedia pillars by some editors.

Anyway, it can't hurt to do a bit of cleaning up to see if we can convince people at ITN... Boud (talk) 15:32, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

@User:Boud, User:Ue3lman - thanks for your work on improving this article. - Indefensible (talk) 18:02, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

War crimes section

Currently this section has an orange banner calling for expansion, but a link to the dedicated War crimes in the Tigray War article is provided. Does this section really need to be expanded and how, or is removing the banner acceptable? Personally I do not think a banner or expansion is really needed here. - Indefensible (talk) 03:21, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

I see no justification for expansion, although updating it (with modest expansion if needed) to better summarise the updated content at War crimes in the Tigray War wouldn't hurt. I'll have a go... Boud (talk) 14:15, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

I've had a quick first go at updating and removed the irrelevant update tag. The current version 14:51, 6 November 2021 gives WP:UNDUE weight to the Chenna massacre - 200 extrajudicial executions by the TDF versus 50,000 (as of 6 months or so ago) by the EDF/ENDF/Amhara militias does not justify giving equal weight. However, NPOVing with due weight can be done iteratively, based on the sources and subarticles for seeing what the sources say. Despite the multiple concerns about the lack of due weight (which differs significantly from undue weight) regarding the EHRC–OHCHR Tigray investigation, it does happen to be the most comprehensive report by organisations associated with national and international institutions. Boud (talk) 15:01, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Humanitarian crisis section

There is an orange banner from September 2021 calling for updates, however not really sure what further relevant information is available or could be added here. Any thoughts from anyone? A couple updates were added since then too, so maybe the banner is already outdated. - Indefensible (talk) 03:24, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

It doesn't include much regarding the displacement in the Amhara and Afar regions since July, updates to the deteriorating food situation in Tigray, and the government imposed blockade accused by the UN and many other international organizations. --Ue3lman (talk) 15:14, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Amhara+Afar region displacements: true, that's missing and should be added. The federal government imposed blockade has existed non-stop since 3 November 2020, so really only a single sentence with a recent reference to say that the blockade is continuing is needed. Boud (talk) 15:26, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes but it's gotten significantly worse since the federal government left Tigray in June/July since now urban areas (usually unaffected by food shortage) have food shortages since the government has effectively cut it off from the outside world. --Ue3lman (talk) 15:47, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Well, add/integrate/update with the info that seems appropriate. Boud (talk) 18:05, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

WHY is this section...

WHY is this section saying "Numerous war crimes have been committed by the Ethiopian, Eritrean and Amhara Regional forces during the Tigray War.[71][251]" while almost all the time the media states that both sides have been accused of committing War crimes.

This section talks about genocide a lot at first and when it comes to the investigation by EHRC and OHCHR report, it only states that it is published and don't provide the finding of the report on genocide. Does the report say there was genocide in Tigray? As far as I know, the report didn't find evidence to support the genocide in Tigray narrative. Will this not make the section biased towards those who claim genocide happened in Tigray? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.137.18.111 (talk) 04:40, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Yeah you're right. I'll rewrite the lead section in line with the BBC. You'll have to suggest other specific changes and the sources for them. AvalonXD (talk) 17:55, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 January 2022

173.183.161.26 (talk) 15:15, 29 January 2022 (UTC) I would like to change some parts because of misconceptions and not exactly what it is

 Not done: requests for decreases to the page protection level should be directed to the protecting admin or to Wikipedia:Requests for page protection if the protecting admin is not active or has declined the request. - FlightTime (open channel) 15:29, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

If you want to edit certain articles which are "protected", then one solution is for you to sign up for an account, and log in to it. After you make some edits, you will probably be eligible to edit this article. Read WP:Why create an account? Platonk (talk) 16:38, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

New map please

The frontline map is old, can we get a new one?

The frontlines haven't changed much Wowzers122 (talk) 00:10, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Remove "to distance the country from ethnic federalism and ethnic nationalist politics"

Please change "In 2019, to distance the country from ethnic federalism and ethnic nationalist politics, Prime Minister Abiy Ahmed merged the ethnic and region-based constituent parties of the Ethiopian People's Revolutionary Democratic Front (EPRDF) coalition and several opposition parties into his new Prosperity Party." to "In 2019, Prime Minister Abiy Ahmed merged the ethnic and region-based constituent parties of the Ethiopian People's Revolutionary Democratic Front (EPRDF) coalition and several opposition parties into his new Prosperity Party."

What was stated as a reason as to why Abiy dissolved EPRDF and created Prosperity Party shouldn't be taken as a fact. We can't be sure about his motives. Many people argue it was to consolidate his power by stripping power from the regional ruling parties.

"After taking office in April of that year, Abiy consolidated his power by fusing Ethiopia’s regional ruling parties into a new Prosperity Party in late 2019 while accelerating efforts to open up the country’s economy and political space." https://reliefweb.int/report/ethiopia/ethiopian-troops-exit-tigray-time-focus-relief Enbki (talk) 09:45, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Sources support the current text.--DresdenZZ (talk) 11:59, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

You'd need to find trusted sources (and probably diverse ones) to the contrary as the ones we have right now support the current text. For example the example you give lists its origin as Crisis Group, a think tank with strong connections to U.S. foreign policy offices and criticism over its tendancy to support NATO policy line like championing its wars or awarding its supporters like Thein Sein with the award ceremony "coinciding with the publication of a Human Rights Watch report of ethnic cleansing by Sein's administration." Basically find a few more sources and then probably sure. AvalonXD (talk) 14:58, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your response.

I don't see any provided sources that support the current text. That in itself warrants removal. I know there could be sources in support of the text, but there are also sources that can be provided against it. I provided that article just to indicate there are people/analysts who saw it differently. At the end of the day, it's just an opinion that shouldn't have been there in the first place according to Wikipedia rules. Also, I don't think Crisis Group is a partial think tank. This is the first time I'm hearing that. I did find other sources too when I searched last time, but I didn't save them. More importantly, I don't think it's fair that I should provide more than one source to counter an opinion that shouldn't have been there initially.

I added a source. --Ue3lman (talk) 04:44, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

WikiProject Peace?

Feel free to add your name to User:Boud/Draft:WikiProject Peace and do some related editing if you are interested. Boud (talk) 22:17, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Replacing the Map

@The_Supermind if you want to change the infobox's opening ideally a case should be made for why and why a collage of predominantely humanitarian events. Map's are more ideal for active conflicts if only they fufil an infobox's purpose of providing a quick overview to the conflict on ground. In addition what it's replaced by would be better discussed so that the pictures accentuate the article and don't just present misery porn. Anyone else who wants can jump in too. AvalonXD (talk) 00:45, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

@AvalonXD: Yeah, maps are extremely important, and the collage does not shows only humanitarian event as you see. But I've not removed the map from the article, simply placing on the bottom. Do you know that this map used by multiple articles, such as Ethiopian civil conflict (2018–present), which details about a civil conflict starting shortly from Prime Minister Abiy Ahmed appointing as a prime minister in 2018. So, this map may not fit with Tigray War and does not significantly display only the fighting spot, instead for all Ethiopian regions. I think this map should be used for the Ethiopian civil conflict since the map actually shows overall situation in Ethiopia. The Supermind (talk) 08:13, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Sorry for not replying. IMO while true that the map features more than what can be constrained to the Tigray War it does prsent a good enough overview especially with the TDF-OLA alliance to consider as part of this conflict. TBH I was hoping some others would way in so we could get a consensus of preference and opinion aside from us. I'd prefer it to stay and map and still suggest you to open another discussion on replacing the map if you want to but I rest my case aside from such. AvalonXD (talk) 12:07, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Somali involvment section

Recently The paradox guy added a report by the The Globe and Mail into the Somali involvement section. The user also changed the section name from "Alegged Somali involvement" to "Somali involvement". It's based on eyewitness reports and I'm wondering should the section name be "Somali involvement" or back to its original name. --Ue3lman (talk) 05:31, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

I'd say change it back though to note the UN does think that Soomali troops are involved as well. AvalonXD (talk) 12:11, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Almost Over

It seems it's almost done no? https://www.france24.com/en/video/20220325-ethiopia-declares-truce-tigray-rebels-agree-cessation-of-hostilities AvalonXD (talk) 13:35, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Ethnic Politics

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 17 January 2022 and 16 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Eks 295 (article contribs).

Verification failed on three claims (one from 1989 and one from 1993?). 1997 paper on torture victims in Canada wholly irrelevant? Citation needed for 98% figure. Abiy Ahmed did not replace Meles Zenawi in 2018... Meles died in 2012. Removed POV about why TPLF government was regarded as illegitimate. 1989 source on discrimination against Tigrayans in Eritrea relevant here? Page(s) and clarification needed for "economic racism" claim. Clarification needed on difference between discrimination against Oromos and Tigrayans. @Krastan03: @Ian (Wiki Ed): Efekadu (talk) 18:16, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Involvement of the rebel coalition in the Tigray conflict

Except for the TPLF and OLF none of the cited articles mention the other groups being engaged in armed conflict in the Tigray War. They maybe considered in the broader Ethiopian conflict page. 129.242.251.236 (talk) 06:15, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

September 2022 UN Commission

a UN report about the Tigray War was released last month: https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2022/09/international-commission-human-rights-experts-ethiopia-finds-reasonable-grounds

information from here + news articles reporting about it should definitely be somewhere in this article. DJ (talk) 17:22, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Proposed split

• Split Tigray War into "Tigray War" and "Reactions to the Tigray War." For the sake of this article not getting too bloated, I was thinking about possibly sectioning off the "reactions" sections into its own article, per WP:LENGTH and WP:SUBARTICLE. Curious about what people think about this. DJ (talk) 02:53, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

I had suggested to split and create a specific article "Eritrean intervention in the Tigray War". The proposal was accepted, but never applied.: Talk:Tigray War/Archive 4#Eritrean involvement in the Tigray War. --Fontaine347 (talk) 15:32, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

@Fontaine347 and XTheBedrockX: Hi, I have created Eritrean involvement in the Tigray War on 24 September 2022. I'm sorry for too late to create the article and you can expand the article. Thanks The Supermind (talk) 09:04, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't know if that's neccesary. Eritrean troops have aside from the first Mekelle offensive and the recent fighting have largely been quiet since most of the fighting from June 2021-August 2022 took place south of tigray's borders.

However we could combine this, and the role of turkish/UAE drones into a page about the foreign involvement in the Tigray war. CamelUSSR (talk) 14:09, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

The Eritrea's intervention in the war is far more relevant than the role of Turkish/UAE drones. Furthermore, the Eritrean involvement in Tigray in favor of Ethiopian government marks a major turning point in Eritrean foreign policy towards Ethiopia. This topic deserves its own article.--Fontaine347 (talk) 17:57, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

• Support the article split for "Reactions to the Tigray War". The page is really too long. --Fontaine347 (talk) 15:38, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

  There doesn't seem to be any opposition to this proposal after nearly 2 weeks, so I made the reactions page and shifted all the respective info over to Reactions to the Tigray War. DJ (talk) 06:38, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

HUGE potential red flag regarding Borkena as a source of info

According to their website's own disclaimer page, they say (in part):

While this website (www.borkena.com) strives to inform readers with accurate information, the editor and/or owner assumes no partial or full responsibility for the authenticity of news published in any category or page of the website. As well, unless clearly specified, opinion’s published on www.borkena.com do not necessarily reflect values, views, perspectives, beliefs and principles of borkena website and/or that of the owner.

If a website that frequently reports on news (including news about conflicts as deeply polarizing as this one) outright states that it will not take responsibility for how truthful or accurate it's information is, then it throws their credibility as a whole into question. DJ (XTheBedrockX) (talk) 09:12, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 October 2022

Change TDF (Tigray Defense Force) to TSF (Tigray Special Force) According to Ethiopian Constitution of 1994, Regions are entitled to have a special force. But, Defence Force are only reserved right for The State of Federal Democratic Republic of Ethiopia. Nahom Sahilu (talk) 14:10, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Not done, the article of the TDF is at Tigray Defense Forces. The Ethiopian Constitution of 1994 does not affect Wikipedia naming conventions. --Mvqr (talk) 15:36, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Both TDF and TSF are definitely used, though if I recall correctly, most of the sources on here either call them the TDF or just generally “Tigrayan forces” or “Tigrayan rebels.” Considering TDF is used in more in media sources, WP:COMMONNAME recommends we go with TDF (though TSF might still be mentioned as another name on their page). XTheBedrockX (talk) 23:08, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Eritrea

Thankful the peace treaty has been signed, but I'm not sure if we can mark this as "over" just yet, at least not until we see how Eritrea responds to this (since they weren't a party to the agreement). XTheBedrockX (talk) 02:31, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

“civil war”

Fact Check: Can this be classified as a civil war when another nation has been involved since the start? SoljaSol (talk) 14:36, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

I’ve been asking myself that same question this whole war. The Geneva conventions define a civil war as a “non-international armed conflict.” Eritrea’s whole involvement sort of changes the nature of it. XTheBedrockX (talk) 17:58, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

However, we've seen foreign involvement in other civil wars: Russian Civil War with Allies and the Central Powers, Angolan Civil War with South Africa and Cuba, North Yemen Civil War with Saudi Arabia and Egypt, First Libyan with NATO, among many others. Mtcat101 (talk) 21:13, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

That's true. But I'll also note that it's usually not common for foreign interventions to involve the mobilization of hundreds of thousands of troops to go to war, which is something Eritrea has done. Russia mobilizing troops into Ukraine is only other ongoing example I can think of for something similar to this, and that one is an unambiguous case of inter-state war. XTheBedrockX (talk) 03:12, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Requested move for Amhara genocide

Editors of this article may be interested in Talk:Amhara genocide#Requested move 13 January 2023. Boud (talk) 11:50, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

User:Iamabelalem

You cannot revert an edit with two sources without addressing the validity of the sources. I understand that losing a war is quite difficult. EritreaCamel (talk) 22:04, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

User:Iamabelalem "The result indicates as their is a one side victory whereas the result of the war was ended upon mutual agreement between the government of Ethiopia and the TPLF (sometimes referred as the Government of the Tigray region at South Africa and next Kenya."

Show (1) article of evidence/proof that the TPLF were named as anything other than that. There is no evidence of the "Gov of Tigray", Tigray is a subfederal entity. EritreaCamel (talk) 22:06, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

"Subfederal entities", also known in Ethiopia as Regional States, maintain varying degrees of self governance in federations around the world. In Ethiopia, Regional States maintain governments with government officials known as "Presidents of the Executive Committee or Chief Administrator of the Region" as the head of the Regional State, subordinate to the federal government. Its pure pedantry to say Regional States don't have governments and pure bias to say Tigray's government was not de facto the TPLF during the course of the conflict. Ridiculous bias here. 67.85.182.54 (talk) 02:21, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Question of Casualties

In a recent address to his generals, Field Marshal Berhanu Jula stated the ENDF had taken "at least" 254,000 fatalities. Why are the numbers of reported casualties on the article so low in this case? Should the information posted here rather reflect much higher numbers for both sides or should it say unknown rather than put out wildly inaccurate estimates that were made over a year ago? 148.76.67.38 (talk) 23:06, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

It can be placed in the infobox as long as it's stated explicitly that Berhanu/Ethiopia is making that claim. Do you have the source for this on hand?

And to sort of answer your question: the reason the casualty figures are so low for combatants is that, when the war was still happening, none of the warring parties seemed keen to say how many losses they suffered, and it was hard to independently verify the numbers we did have thanks to Ethiopia's information blackout. XTheBedrockX (talk) 14:35, 14 March 2023 (UTC)