Talk:The Angel (2018 film)

Requested move 4 July 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Elli (talk | contribs) 02:53, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

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The Angel (2018 American film) → The Angel (2018 film) – There is no other film called “The Angel” released in 2018. Sahaib3005 (talk) 21:01, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment: There is, in fact, another film with this title (this one, an alternative title for El Angel), hence why the page was originally moved. Sean Stephens (talk) 01:58, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose as above. Ambiguous. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:54, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 23 September 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to The Angel (2018 film) for the American film, Un Ange for the Belgian film.. Consensus gravitated to the alternative proposal of shifting the American film back to the the (2018 film) disambiguator while adopting Un Ange as the natural disambiguation for the Belgian film. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 15:00, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

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• The Angel (2018 American film) → The Angel (2018 English-language film)
• Angel (2018 film) → Angel (2018 Belgian film)

– This film was an Israeli-Egyptian-British co-production airing on Netflix, so there is nothing justifying the "American" label. I'm open to suggestions as to a better disambiguator ("spy film"?), but "American" it is not. The Belgian French-language film was shot in the same year, so it should be moved to either "(2018 Belgian film)" or "(2018 French-language film)". Finally, there was the third Angel shot in 2018, but its Spanish title El Angel (film) seems to be its common name, so I'm not including it in the nomination. No such user (talk) 10:49, 23 September 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 00:51, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

• Move The Angel back to The Angel (2018 film) per WP:OVERPRECISION, to revert an undiscussed move from 2018. That will take care of the "American" issue. Angel (2018 film) is a different title, so can stay where it is. Hatnotes should be used on all 3 films to avoid confusion. Station1 (talk) 05:32, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support 2nd, the English one gets 3,561 views compared with only 104[[1]] for the Belgian one so the absence of "The" probably doesn't distinguish. The 2nd move probably makes sense but I can't be sure but "American" doesn't appear in the article's text. There is also El Angel (film) which may well just be "Angel" sometimes judging by the image which has "El" is much smaller text. Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:40, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Move The Angel back to The Angel (2018 film) as with Station1's rationale. I can't understand how this mess has come about. "The" distinguishes this film from the other 2018 entries perfectly sufficiently. The other moves are unnecessary and, as noted, a step towards overprecision. Hatnote the rest. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:02, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

While "The" may distinguish, the absence of it probably doesn't just like The Bahamas is still ambiguous with Bahamas. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:47, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Like many article titles, it's very contextual. For example, since the novels Invisible Man and The Invisible Man are both fairly well-known, most looking for either book (or both) know "The" makes a difference, especially with hatnotes on both articles. That implies that readers can differentiate by leading "The". WP:SMALLDETAILS gives flexibility on when to use it. When the parenthetical starts to sound like a short description, I'm tempted to have WP:CONCISE and the spirit of WP:NATURAL prevail: use a more natural-sounding and shorter disambiguator, even if it means relying more on hatnotes. Of course, given SMALLDETAILS and the history of RMs that vigorously discuss its application, many will disagree. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 04:47, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

The absence of "The" may have a primary topic in a case like Battle of Maldon v The Battle of Maldon because in that case the battle its self is likely primary over the poem based on it for the title without "The" and almost no one will type "The Battle of Maldon" if they are looking for the battle its self hence why the poem is at the base name with "The". In this case we have 2 different films and both could be a 2018 film called "Angel", the threshold for partial disambiguation is higher and I don't see how it comes close and readers and editors are more likely to benefit from full disambiguation. If we don't move to "Un Ange" it should still be completely disambiguated. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:07, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

• Comment. In this RM, the incomplete disambiguations Angel (film) and The Angel (film), both of which redirect to the Angel (disambiguation)#Films page, are at the forefront of the need for longer Angel qualifiers, while another example of film titles with and without the prefix article "The", is exemplified by the currently active discussion at Talk:Slave ship (disambiguation)#Requested move 28 September 2022, which features The Slave Ship (film) and the proposed Slave Ship (film). —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 04:21, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
• Comment As the nom, I vigorously oppose the proposed setup The Angel (2018 film) vs Angel (2018 film). "The" is a poor disambiguator and the two films are not so widely known that a reliable distinction could be made this way (SMALLDETAILS does not mandate that we do it just because we can). The Belgian film's original French title is Un Ange (i.e. 'An Angel' or just 'Angel') but it only has casual English translation. I would not mind moving it to Un Ange instead, at least it's a WP:NATURAL title. No such user (talk) 09:19, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

  Un Ange would certainly be a sensible means of natural disambiguation - translating foreign film titles where it only stands to contribute to further need for disambiguation seems counter productive, whatever the general naming guidelines for foreign films suggest. The only cover art is for Un Ange. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:01, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

  At least, the film is mostly referred to as "Un Ange" in its official page https://www.unangefilm.be . So, can we settle on moving this back to The Angel (2018 film), the Belgian one to Un Ange, and redirecting Angel (2018 film) to dab page? Pinging previous participants: Station1, Crouch, Swale, Roman Spinner, Rotideypoc41352, Iskandar323. No such user (talk) 11:35, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

  Un Ange is fine by me. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 11:51, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

  Me too. Station1 (talk) 16:58, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

  Yep, fine by me too. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:10, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.