Talk:Sunny Balwani

Let's Get A Photo Of This Guy

He has clearly scrubbed himself on the internet, and that will no longer be possible given his very public corruption.

I agree, I've only seen two photos of him online, it's amazing Balwani scrubbed all of his images. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redondobeachsteve (talk • contribs) 00:54, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

He couldn't scrub the Arizona State Government website which has a lengthy video of him giving a presentation, it could easily be screen captured. -- GreenC 14:16, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Pakistan birth

A number of IPs keep changing the article to say he was born in India. However I have confirmed that in Chapter 6 of Bad Blood he is reported to have been born in Pakistan. This can be easily verified by going to books.google.com, find Bad Blood and search box on 'Pakistan'. It's likely the IPs will continue to revert and battle on this, maybe the article will get locked down, but I'm leaving a message as a place for any discussion. -- GreenC 14:13, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Verified. Here's the quote from the book: "Born and raised in Pakistan, Sunny first came to the United States in 1986 for his undergraduate studies." —C.Fred (talk) 14:22, 14 December 2018 (UTC).

The below protection request (link) was made in light of continual changing of place of birth to India.

'''Pending changes:''' Long-term IP disruption using VPN to change place of birth from Pakistan (correct) -> India (incorrect) [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ramesh_Balwani&type=revision&diff=873689923&oldid=873539920][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ramesh_Balwani&type=revision&diff=873028905&oldid=872852755][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ramesh_Balwani&type=revision&diff=858670023&oldid=858648043][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ramesh_Balwani&type=revision&diff=858648043&oldid=858230949][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ramesh_Balwani&type=revision&diff=858200449&oldid=856662651][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ramesh_Balwani&type=revision&diff=851563783&oldid=851347443]. Attempts to [[Talk:Ramesh_Balwani#Pakistan birth|discuss on talk page]] ignored. Inline comments ignored ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ramesh_Balwani&type=revision&diff=875070180&oldid=875069912 example]). Place of birth in Pakistan verified by an administrator in talk. [[User:GreenC|<span style="color: #006A4E;">'''Green'''</span>]][[User talk:GreenC|<span style="color: #093;">'''C'''</span>]] 18:17, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

-- GreenC 18:33, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Disagree. I have checked the physical book and Google Books (books.google.in). The quote from the book goes as follows "Born and raise in Mumbai, Sunny first came to United States". Further proof in "Times of India" reference at the beginning of article. Sumodm (talk) 12:49, 27 December 2018 (UTC)sumodm

Sumodm: Please provide the exact URL for the Google Books and/or the book's ISBN number. -- GreenC 14:11, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

GreenC: URL for Google Books and ISBN is 978-1-5098-6809-4 Sumodm (talk) 07:17, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

I am unable to access a search inside for this edition of the book on books.google.co.in so can not verify it. Please see this as it shows in three places inside the book Pakistan, including two footnotes with further sources where the Pakistan information was obtained. -- GreenC 14:29, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

I opened the ebook of that title ("view ebook" link on left) and again saw the "Born and raised in Pakistan" paragraph. (snippet) —C.Fred (talk) 14:36, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

View Ebook goes to a different edition ISBN 9781524731663 ... would need this one published by Pan Macmillan, May 31, 2018 ISBN 9781509868094 -- GreenC 15:18, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

I was able to access a "Look Inside" snippet on amazon.co.in for the given ISBN here. Wheres the American edition says "Ed had gleaned some basic facts about him: he was Pakistani etc.." the Indian edition says "Ed had gleaned some basic facts about him: he was Indian" (it's towards the end of the given snippet can't link directly). The American edition sources it to Balwani's LinkedIn page. The LinkedIn page is offline and not in any archives. I am going to email the author of Bad Blood and see if he can help us. -- GreenC 14:48, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Well pleased to say, John Carreyrou promptly replied to the email query! He says Balwani is from Pakistan, went to boarding school in Lahore and then came to the US for his undergraduate studies. He enrolled at UT Austin and was a member of the Pakistani student group there. Carreyrou says he made a mistake with India and quickly corrected it, but for some reason it did not correct in the British edition, only the American edition got it right. I can share this email in private with someone in authority (an admin or some other system) if there is any question. @C.Fred: -- GreenC 20:36, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

GreenC Appreciate you checking on that :) Sumodm (talk) 07:27, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Pakistani birth/Indian nationality

I'm not sure why this page needs to have the birth country listed of Elizabeth Holmes former lover and colleague? He obviously identifies as Indian and talks to his history in India. https://abcnews.go.com/Business/theranos-remarkable-blood-test-claims-began-unravel/story?id=61173853 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.75.142.52 (talk) 14:09, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Indian - Pakistani

There seems to some confusion between sources on whether Balwani is from India or Pakistan. The current reference cites the book "Bad Blood", which looks like a good source, but the book itself cites LinkedIn for Balwani nationality, which probably isn't a good source. There seem like there are quite a few RS originating from India that claim Balwani is Indian. Does anyone has a definitive source on this topic? NickCT (talk) 14:27, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

C.Fred, Sumodm - After reading the thread above, and reading into the subject a bit more deeply, it seems likely Balwani is from Pakistan. Problem is, both the Hindustan Times and Indian Express seem to have got the topic wrong, and unfortunately the sourcing in Bad Blood is poor. It would be nice if we could get better sourcing here. We could also potentially consider simply removing national identifier information, or adding a note.

As a side note, Carreyrou's WSJ piece still calls Balwani Indian. Should that be corrected? NickCT (talk) 14:55, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure Carreyrou is the sole source of this error and the Indian press picked up on it and they are not known for doing much fact checking and anyway it sells more papers to continue calling him an Indian. Plus it will sell more of Carreyrou's book there, and the movie, so really no one is incentivized to fix this error. In fact he belonged to the Pakistan student association in university one can easily verify that, and I have an email from Carreyrou himself saying India was made in error. It will all come out in the legal proceedings soon enough. -- GreenC 15:34, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure Balwani's nationality will be the topic of the legal proceedings. An e-mail is not a reliable source. It would be nice if we had some reference for the Lahore boarding school. NickCT (talk) 15:43, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

We have reliable sources. The email is confirmation of why there are conflicting sources. And the email can be verified through the OTRS system if anyone wants, we can't just ignore an email from Carreyrou saying Balwani is from Pakistan and the British edition calling him Indian is in error. -- GreenC 15:51, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Also basic biographical facts establishing who the person is, like name, DOB, gender and nationality will be part of the legal record. How much of that is made public and when, who knows. -- GreenC 15:59, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure citing an e-mail from someone would count as WP:OR. I could be wrong. Do you have a policy page supports your position?

Obviously there's some legal record. The question is whether the legal record is verifiable. NickCT (talk) 16:51, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

The email doesn't need to be cited in the article. WP:OR applies to mainspace pages only, not talk space. Anything can be discussed on talk pages in determining source reliability. The words "common sense" are found throughout the policy documents. The author of the book on inquiry said what happened and why and corrected the mistake. The email helps determine which sources are reliable. And the email from Carreyrou and Bad Blood (US edition) are not the only line of evidence to say he is Pakistani. There is an earlier source saying he attended the Pakistani Student Association in college. -- GreenC 01:40, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

@GreenC: - re "There is an earlier source " - Oh great. Well if there's another source, all of this is a moot point. Where's that other source? NickCT (talk) 22:36, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

There is an earlier source saying he attended the Pakistani Student Association in college.. See that part of the article. -- GreenC 22:45, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

@GreenC: - Ok. Statnews looks like a good source verifying Balwani's membership in the Pakistani Student Association. I guess combined with the Carreyrou info we can discard the Indian sources as fake news. Thanks for reviewing. NickCT (talk) 23:13, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Although we don't normally need to verify what a reliable source says, in this case it is possible. The 1988 Cactus Yearbook contains a picture of Balwani on page 320 in a group photo of the Pakistani Students Association. 2nd row, last on right with striped shirt. -- GreenC 00:22, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Yeah. Saw that. I think it was important to verify just b/c there was confusion among the sources. NickCT (talk) 20:36, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

It's curious that the IP who keeps changing it to "India" is so long-term determined, and follows a similar pattern of modifying the text in a way that is plainly false, as in this example where the Yearbook is modified to say "India" even though the Yearbook is online and plainly says Pakistan. I wonder if it is going beyond a badly informed editor and entering the territory of disinformation (for whatever purpose). -- GreenC 18:31, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

@GreenC: - I'm guessing it's simple misinformation. If it keeps happening, we should work to get a block. NickCT (talk) 17:18, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Funnily enough, one of those IP's tracks to Santa Clara. Maybe someone at Theranos fiddling with things? NickCT (talk) 17:25, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

@NickCT:} Yes, another tracked directly to the building next door to Theranos's old lab! Found a new source (March 14) from Balwani's own lawyer who confirms he was born in Pakistan, but is from a Hindu family that moved to India for a while. That would explain the India connection and confusion. Hopefully our Wikipedia article will help spread the correct information. He does seems to identify as a Pakistani given his choice of student association in Texas, unclear about his citizenship status is the next question. -- GreenC 15:34, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

@GreenC: - Weirder and weirder. Can't imagine there are many Hindus going to boarding school in Lahore. Frankly, there seem to be so many shenanigans surrounding this guy, that I would want to double verify even the most basic biographical information. NickCT (talk) 16:45, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm guessing he is more secular and focused on being successful. About 1.6% of Pakistan is Hindu, but that number used to be higher so they are definitely around. The Lahore boarding school Aitchison College has Hindu students, and probably more in Category:Schools in Lahore. -- GreenC 17:21, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

He should be considered as Indian because the way it works between India and Pakistan is that if someone chooses between one or another, that is what their identity becomes even if they have not lived in either country for a long time. He chose India before emigrating. Therefore, that is a rejection of Pakistan and makes him Indian. For example, Yasir Qadhi's family was from Indian territory but they chose Pakistan before emigrating to the US. They are therefore considered Pakistani, not Indian. Sahir Ludhianvi chose Pakistan but then chose India again. His last choice is the only thing that matters and therefore, he is considered Indian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.125.30.205 (talk) 02:36, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

He was a member of the Pakistani student association in Texas - he choose Pakistan after he immigrated, not India. It's a complex situation. The best we can do it tell readers his history. -- GreenC 04:40, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Looks like the editors have a bias against Pakistan here.

On the one had, you cherry picked a quote that he emigrated from Pakistan to India "because being a Hindu in a mostly all-Muslim country of Pakistan was very difficult".

In the next breath, you quote saying that "He was very patriotically Pakistani," and giving this as a quote from an unknown person. How can a "patriotic Pakistani" emigrate to India because he felt that it was difficult to live in Pakistan as a Hindu?

Looks like the Indians are trying to push him back and show him as a Pakistani because of his criminal case.

Why dont you guys own up and accept that he is a Hindu and an Indian at heart? 2600:4040:46DB:5700:1815:9CBC:1F0E:232B (talk) 22:07, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

he is a Hindu and an Indian at heart .. He is of Hindu religion in reality, not heart. He identifies with the Pakistan nation ("patriotic Pakistani"), not India. This causes problems for Indian nationalists, who can't agree someone could be both Hindu and also a patriotic Pakistani. It's a threat to Indian nationalism which is based on Hindu identity. -- GreenC 22:31, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

But you have no quote from him saying that he is a "patriotic Pakistani". It is an unknown person who you are quoting saying that his is "patriotic Pakistani". That does not make him a "patriotic Pakistani".

If he was a "patriotic Pakistani", he would not have migrated to India. This shows that his patriotism is for India and not for Pakistan. His heart is with India and not Pakistan.

I think you should remove this phrase that he was a "patriotic Pakistani". 2600:4040:46DB:5700:EC97:399:5889:A4C0 (talk) 21:07, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Also note that you have given a reference of the University of Austin Yearbook to say he was a member of the Pakistani Students Association. I checked the link and there is no such statement there.

Please provide proper reference showing where it says he was a member of the Pakistani Students Association. 2600:4040:46DB:5700:EC97:399:5889:A4C0 (talk) 21:17, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

It's right there in the yearbook on page 317, of the yearbook, not the PDF. Do you see page 317 in the yearbook? There are page numbers printed on the yearbook. He is quoted as being a patriotic Pakistani in the The Information as quoted by a friend who knew him at the time. It does not say he is a patriotic Pakistani, it says "He was very patriotically Pakistani," said one friend of Balwani's at the time. This is a completely different statement then what you claim it says. It concerns what a friend said about him at the time he was in college. Not now. Not before. At the time he was in college. Do you understand? He migrated to India with his family, not on his own, he went with his family because that is where his family wanted to go. How he personally felt about it at the time we do not know because the sources do not say, all we can say is what the sources say. Everything else you say is pure speculation ("This shows that his patriotism is for India and not for Pakistan. His heart is with India and not Pakistan.") which is WP:OR (Original Research). If there are other sources that contradict these sources we can discuss. You need to stick to what the reliable sources say. -- GreenC 22:16, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Romantic relationship is confirmed by depositions

There was a quote posted here, which was essentially putting the default position as being "business associate", despite the fact there are several sources for the assertion that they were not, and I believe there is evidence they lived together. John Carreyrou cites several sources from Theranos who all said they were in a relationship. He does not specifically state the date they started dating, but, I just want to point something out.

"(The precise nature of their relationship at this time will be a matter of speculation and opinion but we can only go by what reliable secondary sources say, see Bad Blood. Holmes herself may not be a reliable source as she is a known manipulator of truth."

This is an outdated assumption.

We have a deposition in which Elizabeth Holmes ACTUALLY STATES they were having romantic (edited: sexual is not explicitly stated but implied) relations which could easily be ascertained with a bit of google searching.

• https://www.businessinsider.com/theranos-former-president-sunny-balwani-role-in-the-company-2018-5?r=US&IR=T
  • "Balwani and Holmes confirmed their relationship in deposition tapes reported by ABC News in January 2019." (Includes link)
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvznWSEKoEE (1:41 - 1:54 is Elizabeth Holmes admitting it, 1:55 - 1:57 is Balwani himself admitting it, 2:01 is her admitting she did not tell investors, 2:03 - 2:05 is Balwani admitting the same)

WobInDisguise (talk) 22:04, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Neutrality

Hi,

I've been invited by Wikipedia to translate this article in french (don't ask me why), but the more I progress, the more I'm under the impression that WP:NPOV is not respected. As I'm not native speeker I may be wrong, but I'd still like your opinion on this.

Cheers --Doubleclavier (talk) 15:13, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

I guess you would have to quote specific sentences or words and explain why they are not neutral. -- GreenC 15:37, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

For example in the section SEC Lawsuit, the defense of Balwani does not appear.

In With Thanos:

Balwani had no training in the biological sciences or medical devices,[11] which became an issue due to the company's failure to have medical experts on the board of directors and Balwani's reported behavior.

Why is his inexperience a bigger issue than the inexperience of Holmes or the other directors? What is the relation of said inexerience with his behaviour?

About his behaviour, I don't know America but I think that he was not just " overbearing, uncompromising, demanding" as he was able to seduce the boss despite being twice her age.

The mixup between his career and lawsuits / presumed frauds seems (to me) tainting his whole work.

--Doubleclavier (talk) 10:16, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Have you read Bad Blood? This is the most complete source we have about Balwani's character and background. Other sources concur with it so we are not relying on just that source it comes from many interviews with people who worked closed with him for years, including employees from India. I don't know what the Balwani's legal defense says but we try not to rely on primary source documents like that. This article is a biography of Balwani not Holmes, she has her own article. -- GreenC 15:23, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

No I haven't read this book. In the SEC section we heavily rely on primary sources namely: https://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2018/comp-pr2018-41-balwani.pdf

After reading WP:BLPCRIME and WP:BLPCOI I suggest adding a POV banner to attract other contibutor. Would it be OK for you?

--Doubleclavier (talk) 08:28, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Look I didn't write this article, and like every other article on Wikipedia it needs work and improvement all the time. Why don't you find and read sources and work on the article? That SEC source is unnecessary, we have plenty of high quality secondary sources that can be used instead. You have not made any attempt to fix perceived problems through BRD. It seems like you simply disagree with the article, are not familiar with the sources, don't want to work on it, but engage in lengthy talk page discussions and want to tag it with banners. What is your intention here? -- GreenC 13:57, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry I don't know what BRD means...

My intention here is to improve the neutrality of Wikipedia, before translating it. As I am aware neither on the sources nor on English subtilities, I don't wan't to edit this article directly. However I did work on it, translating parts of it in french. I have stoped translation because of said lack of representation of the defense (as I felt free to edit the style and separate the sections, theese were not much of a concern).

--Doubleclavier (talk) 16:53, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

In the 'Criminal charges' section it says "Balwani's defense is that he never made any money while at Theranos." In the 'SEC lawsuit' it says "alleged" and it appears the case is still being litigated by Balwani (Holmes settled out of court). Everyone in the US is innocent until proven guilty so it goes without saying he is innocent and pleads innocent (again "alleged"). Has he stated his position, other than implied not guilty? -- GreenC 15:01, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm not fluent in english but the third paragraph of SEC lawsuit seems assertive. If neutrality in WP en is that a sentence about the defense in an other section equals a whole section of accusations, then I bet we have other standards in WP fr... but maybe you now concur that there is a neutrality issue?

--Doubleclavier (talk) 20:34, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

This is one of the four complaints/charges in the SEC document made against Balwani (pg.16 17.e.). It's not an assertion by Wikipedia. GreenC 21:06, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

I removed the section that was sourced entirely to legal documents. This is a clear violation of WP:BLPPRIMARY and should be removed at first sight. Please do not use court documents or other public records that may contain personal and private information as these are not allowed under any circumstances. See WP:BLP/N#Ramesh Balwani for the relevant discussion. Zaereth (talk) 22:54, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

• I removed some content that appeared to add an excessive level of detail, mostly reflecting negatively on Balwani and mostly sourced to the Bad Blood book. There are some great details in that book, and I don't doubt the book's reliability, but not every minute verifiable detail belongs in an article. R2 (bleep) 00:18, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Pakistan birth (again)

This is a quote from Jeff Coopersmith, who is Balwani's personal attorney:

"Sunny Balwani is an extraordinary person. He was born in Pakistan to a Hindu family, and eventually the family had to move to India because being a Hindu in a mostly all-Muslim country of Pakistan was very difficult. When he got to the United States, he literally kissed the ground and studied at the University of Texas, where he got a degree in computer science. Everything he ever did in his life he got through earning it through incredibly hard work. He was the most hard working person pretty much I've ever met."

Any source that claims otherwise ie. that he was born in India, would need to be more credible than Jeff Coopersmith, who is Balwani's personal attorney. -- GreenC 14:30, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Magical

In the external links is a video of Balwani presenting to the AZ State Senate in 2014. In the first two minutes he says "We have something we believe is magical." Presumably he didn't mean actually magic, or magical thinking? In retrospect the statement appears to be hauntingly accurate. -- GreenC 14:16, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

AZ State Senate video gone missing

The external links section had a video of Balwani as a guest speaker to the AZ State Senate in 2014 - the video was created by the AZ state government. It is important because it is the only known video of Balwani, that I am aware of. He is one of the most secretive people I have ever encountered on Wikipedia. This 2018 news article calls him a "virtual ghost" because there is so little online. This Wikipedia article has been under constant attempts to delete and misdirect the basic facts, going back years, by a steady stream of IPs and SPAs, some geolocating to nearby (or actually in) the old Theranos HQ.

The video in question is now deleted from the AZ State Senate website. In addition, the archive of the video has also been deleted. That's pretty unusual, it takes a lot to get an archive provider to delete an archive page. It doesn't happen by mistake, it was an intentional act by the archive provider. I have reached out to them to restore, explain or provide a backup copy. Someone(s) are clearly trying to distort the facts on this page, and delete the history of Balwani online. -- GreenC 05:44, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

@GreenC

I happened to come across your contribs history and saw this. The link still works for me, but it looks like only the first 20/30 or so minutes actually saved. It would be good to download the video and save it offline in case it actually does go away. Rlink2 (talk) 13:59, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Strange! It's working for me also. Maybe the message I sent to Conifer brought it back. I do get a "deceptive warning" message from Firefox and Chrome, then need to click through the "are you sure". Conifer is on a Google list of deceptive sites. Probably because with Conifer they use Webrecorder technology which has such high fidelity they also capture malware. -- GreenC 15:29, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

The WARC is saved. It's on acre:~/Downloads (as a reminder to myself). GreenC 15:41, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

@GreenC

Yes, it seems to be on the infamous Google Safe Browsing list. My main browser has Google Safe Browsing disabled so I didn't even notice.

While the Confier platform seems to be full of spam (Duckduckgo "site:conifer.rhizome.org"), it seems like only specific links on webrecorder/confier are on the Google safe browsing list (like this one). Maybe due to the subject matter (I am not too familiar with the situation here) they were able to get this specific link marked as malware so people wouldn't click on it. Who knows. Rlink2 (talk) 18:14, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

This article gives his birth date.

https://www.businessinsider.com/who-is-ramesh-sunny-balwani-elizabeth-holmes-ex-theranos-trial-2022-3#they-initially-became-friends-and-grew-romantically-involved-later-around-the-time-holmes-dropped-out-of-stanford-at-19-years-old-to-focus-on-theranos-12 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.75.207.34 (talk) 14:57, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

RFC on the use of "fraudster"

Just to note an RFC has been opened on Talk:Elizabeth_Holmes regarding the use of "fraudster", with a mention of this article. All are invited to comment. Bdushaw (talk) 17:36, 18 April 2023 (UTC)