Talk:Stradella bass system

To anyone noticing duplicate content in this article and the accordion article

The accordion article, due to its length, is currently being compartmentalized because of the indefinite nature of that instrument and the many different configurations it can be in. As such, this and other articles will be in use as soon as possible when they have been created and content converted to the new format. Thank you for your patience and understanding.

Notes Vs References

The current 'note' that appears in the 'References Section' needs to be changed from a 'cite' (I'm nto really sure what to at the moment!) - as it is not a 'verifying link' to an external reference, but just an internal 'expansionary note' - this sort of confusion is common throughout the Accordion articles. If we wish to upgrade the rating, this is essentialFoolesTroupe (talk) 14:20, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

 Resolved

96-bass accordion image

I hope you don't mind if I find a picture of a standard 120-bass left-hand manual. I think the standard instrument should be featured in images. Henry Doktorski (talk) 04:13, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

If 120 basses is the convention then it makes sense to prefer a photo of that, so long as the photo is equally descriptive. :) 85.81.23.225 (talk) 23:04, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Herr Doktorski, I am afraid there exists no such thing as a "standard instrument" among accordions. At least I have never seen one, neither did I hear any mention, over many years and several visits to Castelfidardo and Stradella. I must agree however that 120-bass is the most widely used. YMMV. Jan olieslagers (talk) 08:57, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Stradella Octave Range

I think it would be very helpful to have an image of the playing range (how looks like in sheet music) and also a brief discussion of stradella notation. P.S. Is C the lowest playable note on the stradella bass? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.51.232.95 (talk) 04:14, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree, and this would be extremely useful for those in the process of learning how to play the instrument. 85.81.23.225 (talk) 23:03, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Again: this question could only have an answer if there existed a standard instrument. To my knowledge, there isn't. So we can only say "on most accordions..." The one thing that is certain is that the Stradella bass system has a maximum of 12 notes in the fundamental bass, one for each halftone in the octave. And to my impression the builders strive to make them sound "octave-free", so that little loops always sound contiguous. Jan olieslagers (talk) 21:58, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

3rd row of fundamental bass

I have always liked to have a third row of fundamental bass to my accordeons, giving the minor thirds just like the second one gives the major thirds. Whenever I talked to builders they found this a normal request, though becoming a bit rare. My instruments thus have 3 rows of fundamental bass (tonica, major 3rd, minor 3rd) and three rows of chords (major, minor, septime). I should like to mention this option on the main page - what do others say? Jan olieslagers (talk) 16:41, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

My accordion is set up in this way. I was disappointed to find no mention of this layout on this page, so naturally I agree with you. If it helps, mine is a 4 row chromatic button of a style popular in France, and the minor row is the innermost of six. It's a good idea.Donnx (talk) 06:35, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

With the omission of the dominant 7th row, in this system, the diminished row may use the 3rd, 5th and 7th, rather than as shown in the diagram and discussed in the text ("Modern Stradella systems omit the 5th from these two chords") Donnx (talk) 20:53, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

 Resolved

Clarification on extra major thirds

Note 1 says: 140-bass accordions may come with either an extra major 3rd note row, located between the regular major 3rd row and the root note. The only meaning I can take from this is that, for example, the C row goes E E C CM Cm C7 Cdim. In other words, the first two buttons play identical notes.140-bass accordions may come with either an extra major 3rd note row, located between the regular major 3rd row and the root note

Um, Jan? That's just a repetition of the quoted sentence at the beginning of my paragraph. Koro Neil (talk) 10:40, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Similarly the table gives for the 160 bass Three major 3rd rows, root note Major, minor, 7th, diminished. The C row then would be E E E C CM Cm C7 Cdim, with the first three buttons identical.

This seems so pointless that it must be wrong. But the article offers me no help in coming to a correct understanding. If I say to myself, "Obviously it doesn't mean that; it must mean..." no plausible end to the sentence comes to mind. I have once played a 140 bass – the inmost row was the minor 3rd note.

Koro Neil (talk) 04:25, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

That's more or less what I tried to hint at in my above remark. Indeed I have two accordions, both with six rows of bass keys: three rows of fundamental and three rows of chords. This is the usual config for Belgian button accordions, though mine have piano-style keyboards.

IMHO a better wording would be " 140-bass accordions come with an extra row; this can be an additional row of fundamental bass, normally the minor third, located above major 3rd row" .... Jan olieslagers (talk) 08:53, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

So, extra major 3rd note row is an error for extra minor 3rd note row? But that still doesn't explain the very clearly (but mysteriously) worded Three major 3rd rows in the table. I'm still mystified. Koro Neil (talk) 10:40, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Following your remarks, I set to correcting this for once and for good. Alas! the more I twiddled about, the more I became mystified just like you report. Trouble is I never saw a 160-bass instrument, and only very few 140-bassers. I really have no personal knowledge, far less any academic insight, on the subject. So I reverted most of my edits, leaving just an extra section describing the 120-bass I play and which is more or less standard in my part of the world. I guess we now have a "society of accordionists mystified by Wikipedia's description of the 140- and 160-button versions of the Stradella bass system". I heartily agree with you that the current description is bewildering, to say the least. Actually, my extremely personal point of view is that 140- and 160-bass are not common anyway, so they don't have a place in a table of "common systems". Unless new enlightenment is apported, I intend to remove these two entries from the table - in their present state, they are worse than useless. Jan olieslagers (talk) 16:27, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

After the 140-bass addition by SomeAvailableName - which looks correct to me, though I still hold a 140-bass not common enough to be in a table of "common configurations" - and given the lack of comments, either positive or negative, to my earlier remark, I did remove the pre-existing entries for 140- and 160-bass. Table looks quite acceptable now, to me. HTH. Jan olieslagers (talk) 08:08, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Named for composer Alessandro Stradella?

It's nowhere in his article, but does anyone know the origin on the name? Jrgsf 18:56, 8 April 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jrgsf (talk • contribs)

AFAIK it refers to the city of Stradella, once an important centre of accordion production and still proud of its museum. Jan olieslagers (talk) 19:03, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I have heard this as well, but I cannot find a definitive citation for it. I have marked that section as for now. Gravensilv (talk) 14:23, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Actual Voicings of Chord Buttons?

As a trained musician, but non-accordionist, I find the section on "Notation" confusing and incomplete. The text suggests that a chord button is notated by placing the root pitch on the staff, accompanied by "M, m, 7, or d" to indicate the chord form desired. OK, got that.

In the example given, the middle C with the "M" gives a C-major chord, which is consistent with the explanation. However the second middle C in the bar has no "M", and yet the same chord is notated. Wouldn't that be just a single note, middle "C", if the "M" is missing?

Moving on, the tenor "G" in the second measure shows that it produces a G-major chord, yet this note also lacks the "M". Without the "M" how would one know whether a single "G" note, or a full G-major chord were intended?

Complicating things still further, the "C" with the "M" in the first bar apparently produces a C-major chord in 6-4 inversion, whereas the "G" in the second bar produces a G-major chord in root position. Is the voicing on, say, all major chord buttons arbitrary? Or should it be the same for all major chord buttons in a given register? If they're all different, what, exactly, are the voicings of the different buttons?

To me, more detail in this section is clearly needed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.89.176.249 (talk) 23:50, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

The article is incredibly unclear about this.

Generally, notes notated below D3 are understood to be single bass notes, while notes notated above D3 are understood to be chords. D3 itself is often ambiguous, and one can also rarely see single bass notes notated in the upper half of the staff, but the division usually holds. The chord marking ("M", "m", "7", etc) persists until a chord change, so in the case of something like

All middle Cs in the first two measures represent major chords, while all middle Cs in the last two measures represent minor chords.

The second measure with the G chord and the C bass-chord combination was ambiguously notated, and I am fixing it. Both the G chord and the subsequent C chord should have been marked as "M", and while ambiguous notation like that may be found in music, the example in Wikipedia should be as clear as possible.

In terms of inversions: The stradella bass only has 12 distinct notes to use, not counting the fact that each note is duplicated over several octaves. Therefore, there is only one possible voicing for each chord, and the voicings are liable to be different for each chords. There is no standardized voicing scheme or range, since different accordions contain different reed setups.

All of this should be mentioned in the article, and not only in the talk section. Gravensilv (talk)

Use of the Thumb

The use of the thumb in stradella bass is generally discouraged in Western playing, but I have heard that Bayan players sometimes use their thumb. I do not play Bayan so I cannot confirm this, and I could not find any definitive source. I added to the statement regarding use of the thumb being discouraged, and am leaving this issue open in the hope that someone who is more knowledgeable can either confirm or refute. Gravensilv (talk) 14:29, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

I've never heard of the use of the thumb on the bass actually being discouraged, but I doubt that any player often feels the need to use it. I've occasionally used the thumb on the diminished row with a note on the the counterbass row (e.g, F# in the D row with a C dim to get an F#dim7), but this is only in twiddling around - I've never used it in an actual tune. Koro Neil (talk) 02:00, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Layout diagram problem

When I open the link from the layout diagram, the notes on the chords buttons are difficult to read, but when I click on the image, it shrinks to a completely unreadable size. This is something that has quite recently been happing with Wikipedia images in general. I understand that this is to do with copyright issues, but this is one instance where not being able to zoom in on the image seriously reduces its usefulness. Koro Neil (talk) 01:53, 13 February 2022 (UTC)