Talk:Statue of Abraham Lincoln (District of Columbia City Hall)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Possible sources

• Smithsonian American Art Museum's Art Inventories Catalog  Done
• Lot Flannery  Done
• "Testament to Union: Civil War Monuments in Washington, D.C.", pp 68-71  Done
• "Courts to Rededicate City's Oldest Lincoln Statue"  Done
• "Lot Flannery, 86, Sculptor, is Dead"  Done

APK whisper in my ear 19:02, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Sculptor section?

Should the content in the Sculptor section be moved to create an article about Flannery? Seems he is notable enough for an entry of his own. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:24, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

I was wondering the same thing. If a new one is created, should there still be some background info on this article? I don't usually write sculpture articles, so I'm not sure of the usual MoS. APK whisper in my ear 21:46, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't often see much info about the sculptor/artist on an entry for a specific work. Usually just the details that are most relevant... like if they are/were from the city in which the work resides, other works by the artist in the same city, etc. People can always click on the article about the artist if interested. (Pointing to my own work here for convenience, but you might check out the "Showcase" section here to view GA articles for sculptures and how they incorporate info about the artist.) ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:52, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. I'll create one for Flannery and move things around on this article. APK whisper in my ear 21:59, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Sounds good. Again, great job on the article! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 22:03, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! APK whisper in my ear 22:33, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

@AgnosticPreachersKid: I think this article would pass a good article review Do you have an interest in nominating it? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 05:08, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Sure. I only have one GA under my belt (six years ago), so let me read up on the procedure. APK whisper in my ear 05:53, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Glad to hear. Let me know if you need assistance with the process. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 05:55, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

This review is transcluded from Talk:Abraham Lincoln (Flannery)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Caponer (talk · contribs) 14:57, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

AgnosticPreachersKid, I will be completing a comprehensive review of this article within the next 48 hours. Please let me know if you have any questions or comments in the meantime. Thanks and I look forward to this review! -- Caponer (talk) 14:57, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to review the article. APK whisper in my ear 20:39, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Alright AgnosticPreachersKid, I have completed a comprehensive review of your article, and I find that it meets the criteria for inclusion as a Good Article. Before proceeding, however, I do have some suggestions and comments that must be addressed. I've listed these below. Once these have all been attended to, I will comfortable completing this process. Thank you for all your hard work and dedication to this article and to Wikipedia. -- Caponer (talk) 13:38, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Lede

• Even though most readers know Lincoln's death was in 1865, I would state 1868 in the lede when referencing the third anniversary of his death.
• Wiki-link the presiding President of the United States at the time of the first unveiling, Andrew Johnson in this instance. Because so many well-known and notable Generals from the Civil War were in attendance, I suggest adding the rest to the lede. This is quite a significant outpouring for a statue.
• The lede needs to be representative of the entire article, and some content from the following sections must be added.
• Provide more detail on the first rededication in the lede.

 Done APK whisper in my ear 22:18, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Design

• The design section leads directly into a discussion of the statue, without any discussion of geography or place. I suggest making this section "Design and location" or something to that effect; so that you can establish the place with the design. It is significant to begin mentioning that this statue is placed in square in front of the old District of Columbia City Hall in Judiciary Square. While this is all mentioned in the lede, it needs to be addressed in the article's content, preferably before its physical description. You may even consider flipping History with Design, in order to introduce all the actors, events, and the background that led to the creation of the statue before you describe the statue.
• The entire first paragraph of this section relies upon one source: Smithsonian American Art Museum. Consider sourcing additional and existing content from the following texts I found during a cursory search. I've formatted the bibliography citations for you:
• Percoco, James A. (2009). Summers with Lincoln: Looking for the Man in the Monuments. New York City: Fordham University Press. ISBN 9780823228959. OCLC 183926370. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
• Pohl, Robert S.; Wennersten, John R., eds. (2009). Abraham Lincoln and the End of Slavery in the District of Columbia. Washington, D.C.: Eastern Branch Press. ISBN 9780578016887. OCLC 373965967.
• Lincoln's first usage in the Design content should be Abraham Lincoln and linked to his article, as it would be the first usage in the content section of the article, separate from the lede. The same goes for Lot Flannery's name at first mention in the content.
• Other than the above mentioned comments, the Design section is written well overall, and the content checks out from the Smithsonian source.

 Done I used the second reference (thank you for finding it), but the only mention of the statue I see in the first book is on pg. 15 (just a short mention). I don't see any info about the design in these books. Am I missing it? APK whisper in my ear 22:44, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

History Background

• Washington, D.C. should be linked first mention in the content section outside lede.
• The assassination mention should be linked to Assassination of Abraham Lincoln.

 Done APK whisper in my ear 22:18, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Dedication

• This section is fine; I have no further comments or questions.

Removal and rededications

• When mentioning that the pedestal was unsafe, did locals have any valid reasons for not thinking the pedestal was safe? I was just curious if there was any supporting evidence that it was flawed structurally.
• Similarly, do we know why it ended up at the Bureau of Engraving of all places? And was there any similar pomp and circumstance at the first rededication? There may not be documentation to support these questions, but I thought it was worth an ask.
• Ensure that internal citations are listed in numerical order.

Good questions. Unfortunately, I don't see any info on why it was thought the pedestal was unsafe or why it was at the BEP. The book doesn't mention a rededication ceremony in 1923 and the Library of Congress archives I would normally use only dates to 1922. APK whisper in my ear 22:55, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, no copyvios, spelling and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

• AgnosticPreachersKid, I've re-reviewed the article and I find that you've incorporated all the aforementioned comments and questions where appropriate. I feel that moving the history section above the design section greatly enhances the article's flow. As for the other reference, it was after a brief cursory search, and yes there were a few brief mentions, but the content it describes is already sourced in your article. Thank you for your expedient response, and for your phenomenal work on this article. -- Caponer (talk) 00:33, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! APK whisper in my ear 00:37, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Title

@AgnosticPreachersKid: Hello! WP:VAMOS has been updated and now says:

"For portrait sculptures of individuals in public places the forms "Statue of Fred Foo" "Equestrian statue of Fred Foo" or "Bust of Fred Foo" is recommended, unless a form such as "Fred Foo Memorial" or "Monument to Fred Foo" is the WP:COMMONNAME. If further disambiguation is needed, because there is more than one sculpture of the same person with an article, then disambiguation by location rather than the sculptor is usually better."

Do you know if this work of art is officially called Abraham Lincoln? If not, we should probably move the page to be consistent with others at Statue of Abraham Lincoln. Since there are other statues of Lincoln in Washington, D.C., I think Statue of Abraham Lincoln (District of Columbia City Hall) is necessary for disambiguation purposes. Thoughts? @Ham II: Pinging you as well, as someone familiar with this ongoing discussion re: title for public statues.

Thanks, both! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:04, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

The sources just call it Abraham Lincoln, but the suggestion you mentioned works for me. APK whisper in my ear 19:49, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 1 March 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved as proposed. There's consensus for move. (non-admin closure) – Ammarpad (talk) 16:54, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

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Abraham Lincoln (Flannery) → Statue of Abraham Lincoln (District of Columbia City Hall) – WP:VAMOS has been updated and now says: "For portrait sculptures of individuals in public places the forms "Statue of Fred Foo" "Equestrian statue of Fred Foo" or "Bust of Fred Foo" is recommended, unless a form such as "Fred Foo Memorial" or "Monument to Fred Foo" is the WP:COMMONNAME. If further disambiguation is needed, because there is more than one sculpture of the same person with an article, then disambiguation by location rather than the sculptor is usually better." Since there are other statues of Lincoln in Washington, D.C., we must use a more specific location. This move would make the page more consistent with entries in Category:Statues of Abraham Lincoln. --Another Believer _(Talk) 16:08, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose per this reference and this one, among others, which indicate that Abraham Lincoln is the real name of this important statue (although "Lincoln" is carved on the statue itself) and it surely is the common name. A great back story, the sculptor was at Ford's the night Lincoln was shot (although not clear if he witnessed the shooting or was in the lobby getting popcorn). Randy Kryn (talk) 16:55, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
• Support (or similar with some disambiguator). I see no reason not to use "Statue of X". It is a statue, not the man himself, and we have a convention for naming articles about statues, as found in WP:VAMOS. —BarrelProof (talk) 17:41, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
• Support per WP:VAMOS, as quoted in the nomination. Ham II (talk) 10:03, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
• Support, as per nom, others. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:22, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
• Support per nom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:45, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.