Talk:Sri Lankan Vellalar

This page is for discussion on the - origin of Vellalars of Jaffna (we can discuss in detail various family history). - Special Features (religion, practices, family etc,) - We will have to study that on the basis of written history of Jaffna and not on the basis of intepretation. - We can also discuss the migration of other families into Jaffna later (Saiva Vellalas and Chetties). - It is know that Jaffna Tamils had close links to Chidambaram and SaivA Adheenams in Tamil Nadu until recently.

Well we need to create and edit on the basis of five pillars of wikipedia, including using WP:RS sources. I have updated this article from an OR status to an article based on RS souces written in a neutral tone22:17, 26 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.134.115.100 (talk)

The fact is Vellalars are the Chiefs since inception of Jaffna Kingdom. No doubts on that. Portugese/Dutch are not responsible for the rise of the Vellalars.. Almost all the Families with links to the Arya Chakravarthis have Vellala Links. Check out the Family Trees of the Vellalar Chiefs.

Your version is ridiculous. Tobacco or Portugese Laws did not give rise to wealth for Vellalars. Kailaya Malai explains their wealth and power before migrating. Besides there is no need to delete the names of the Vellala Chiefs in here. Real Vellalar families have links to their founding lineages.

You seem to have a agenda here. I wont disturb you but read Prof. S. Pathamanathan's work on History of Jaffna or similar works. What I have written needed a clear-up but wasnt OR .. IT was based on works by recognised scholars. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Weldingveerasamy (talk • contribs) 14:18, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Well besides the personal attacks against WP:NPA you seem not to know the policies of wikipedia. The most important policy is WP:OR, no original research. If you have any WP:RS books that agree with your point of view, please add it to the article not your words. There is one para in post 1983 society that is not fully supported by sources. I will leave it there for 2 weeks. Please find sources to back up those claims.. Also there is no agreement Arya Chakaravarthi dynasty is Vellalar in origin. What little agreement we have is that they are Tamil Brahmins from Madurai. There are even evidence in Tamil Nadu about this family. Also watch your language and refrain from using words such as ridiculous. Thanks Taprobanus 13:09, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I've added the most important parts and removed the irrelevant parts .. Origin of the Vellala Chiefs .. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Weldingveerasamy (talk • contribs) 13:54, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

What you have added is Primary source, it has to be attributed not directly quoted. Can we rely on Mahavamsa to write in the Sinhala people page that they are actually half lion-half human race ? No we cant. That is the problem with Primary Resources. That is why in Wikipedia WP:RS we avoid Primary resources or we attribute it to it when doing so. Nothing Yalpana Vaipava Malai says about so called Vellalar origin of Kings and elites can be taken for face value without correponsing secondary sources that agree with it or disagree with it. You really have to find those sources. Also I dont agree with your deletion of properly cited material (2 cites) about Vellalar rise during the Dutch period. Please add it back. Thanks Taprobanus 22:26, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Let at least the names of all chiefs, their background and place of settlement be there. I will edit that portion in due course with due citation. Without the names, background and place of settlement this page is not about Vellalars. The Base of Vellalar history in Jaffna is about the Chiefs and their settlements, we cannot ignore that. The rest of the stuff is about people who "became vellalars".

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Weldingveerasamy (talk • contribs) 06:37, 6 October 2007 (UTC) 

I am not sure about the other cast people who later became Vellalar story is correct. We in Jaffna check four to five generations of someone’s ancestry and back ground to know their cast. The origins of someone’s place of birth can identify the cast too. In Jaffna for example, if you are from chunnakam you are most likely to be Kovier. It is as simple as that. There are still ways to identify people. Jaffna Tamils do not mix with Tamils from the east of Sri Lanka or hills because they are mainly lower cast. It is very hard to hide someone’s true identity and claim the vellalar identity, especially during marriage proposals this is subject is very deeply looked at for many generations before forming alliance. One more thing, in Jaffna or let’s say in Mannipai Iyers or Brahmins do not get respect from the prominent Vellalar, we call and treat them as poosary’s. If you are leaving for an important business and in an auspicious time crossing an Iyer is a sign of bad luck. It is also true to say there are a few inter marriages with other cast specially after the 1995 mass displacement but this is very minimal. People do not accept other cast members into the families even if they were married to their sons and daughters they are always out casts. In this occasion I would like to point out which other cast today does not have any inter marriage with another cast? There is always some, one-way or the other even in the so called Brahmins.

My grand mother will not serve water to a pallan in an empty soda bottle (which normally goes in a bin) instead, she would poor it into a coconut shell and offers it to drink. This practice is not acceptable and very discriminatory I am not proud of it to say we discriminate fellow human because of his/her birth but this is how the cast system is still in Jaffna and it is an example to show how prominent the Vellalar are still in Sri Lanka.

I also believe the Chera, Chola and Pandiya’s are a fusion of Vellalar. As you can see they do not have another identity or a Kshatriya Varna directly associated to them. I also believe the late domination of Brahmins in the south India especially in Tamil Nadu in the 17, 18 and 19th century tried to undermine the Vellalar history to claim the dominent position among the other casts. If you take northern India there are still lots of Kshatriya casts left but where are the Kshatriya families of the Tamil Nadu the old Tamil kingdom? Well some of them migrated to Sri Lanka and settled in the north of Sri Lanka and others still remain in Tamil Nadu but lost their prominence because I believe systematically Brahmins erased their identity through modification of literature. It is also worth to point out unlike Sri Lankan Tamil vellalar the Indians did not have the easy access to high class western education. This also made them lag behind the Brahmins in the 18th and 19th century. It is also worth noting Dravidians are the origins of India and they were powerful and Brahmins could not get upper hand here until recent part of history. The rest is history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Weybridgeguyat (talk • contribs) 18:43, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Varna and Jati are 2 different concepts. South and East Indians did not have the concept of Varna, except the Brahmins most of whom migrated from North, the rest are just groups of people divided along linguistic, ethnic and jati lines. This is what most mainstraem history books will tell. The Kings and the street sweeper are all the same. Even the Cola king Karikalan was chosen by the people a story says. Anyway even Arumuga Navalar did not try to give Vellalar kashtraiya status in his days. Taprobanus (talk) 04:49, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Taprobanus,you remove very easily statements concerning Vellalars but for karaiyar no pb... They claim to be (ancient) warriors (...) without any citation, but for you, it seems there is no pb. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rajkris (talk • contribs) 00:35, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Adding of

Several users are adding unsourced content. The article had previously content without sources or with unreliable sourced that were removed. It should be discussed here before any further edits.Xenani (talk) 11:46, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

To Xenani,

There were so many sources provided before you removed them. Who are you to tell what should be added and what should not? You are not even a Vellalar. If it's a fact pertaining to the Vellalar, it can be added, there is no limit. In fact the article was neutral and unbiased until you removed so many sections and added others (which I respected). What happened to the rise of dominance section? Where is the part on the Malaysian and Singaporean Jaffna Vellalars, who comprise the majority of educated, elite Tamils in these countries even today? Why is there no source left from the Yalpana Vaipava Malai? I will not allow you to remove what you like and add things to your own picking and liking. What I did is added the old info (which you removed) to the 'new' info that you added. I respected your edits. But you go and remove all of them? And your English is horrific. Your GRAMMAR is wrong in so many sentences. I EVEN CORRECTED THAT FOR YOU. Know who you are THOROUGHLY before doing these things. Learn proper grammar OK? Thankfully while researching to edit I also came across many other facts and info pertaining to the Vellalar so I added more info while re-adding the old info yet still keeping the stuff which you added.

From, Damien. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Damien1994 (talk • contribs) 03:22, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Hi Damien1994. The article was previously pretty much biased and didn't have any sources to the content, thats the reason I removed it. This an example(from 30 march 2017, before I edited):

"According to Yalpana Vaipava Malai, a native chronicle, written in the 18th century, which narrates the history of the establishment and the fall of the Jaffna kingdom in Sri Lanka, from its rise in the 13th century to its fall in the early 17th century, many Vellalar chiefs from Tamil Nadu were responsible for organizing settlement groups from India into the Jaffna peninsula.[citation needed] Most of these pioneering families had titles associated with clan chiefs such as "Rayan", Thevan", "Mudali", "Mappanan" and "Malavan".[citation needed]"

You see that this didn't have any sources and I didn't neither find anyone so i removed it. When something stays for too long without any citation, then it has to be removed. Also you don't need to go on personal attacks on Wikipedia, try to avoid it, and also avoid being to casteist, nationalist etc. on Wikipedia articles when editing. The article looks pretty biased currently and all content you added have no sources. Add reliable sources to it or please remove the content. Xenani (talk) 08:48, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

It is up to Vellalars what they want to add, as long as it is not too much exaggeration. You are not a Vellalar and have no right to tell what to put and not put. You must be a jealous Koviar. I will not allow you to edit as you like. Everybody is proud of their caste and origins and you have no say in this. In India pages all castes are so proud of their castes and love exaggerating, why don't you go and tell them what to do. We can be how nationalistic or proud of our castes as we want, as long as we state the facts and not hurt sentiments of other castes. I see you having special interest in Vellalar history, but you are not Vellalar, so you have no say in this. Only Vellalars know our history and society better. Damien1994 (talk) 09:33, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Damien1994, I request you to not edit on this page. You have a superiority complex which is not acceptable on Wikipedia, and your edits are also without any sources at all. Read WP:NPOV and WP:OR. Xenani (talk) 14:10, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Xenani, I will edit as much as I want and will start adding the sources soon. You sound like a jealous lower caste with inferiority complex, which is understandable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Damien1994 (talk • contribs) 02:01, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Article is a mess, countless edits and bias from both sides

Damien1994, Xenani - I suggest you find an admin to resolve this issue, or resolve it mutually using both of your sourced information which you both have.

Its been going on for over a year by the looks of it. You both contributed researched and referenced work on the article, but both choose to delete thousands of words of each other's work like a ping pong battle.

You need to look at the references and citations which you have both given to come together to bring useful information, instead of making "good faith" mass deletions and reversions.

Both of you have contributed useful and cited information and its not really a battle, so would be good if you incorporated material from both your work in an unbiased and logical format, also leading to many grammatical mistakes.

Corrected some of the poor grammar on here, removed speculative statements e.g. about concubines about whose origin is not known, but is known to have Brahmin ancestry by SM Raghavan in the Jaffna Kingdom.

The community I have found to be around 50% in the northern Jaffna peninsula before the war, not throughout the whole population of Sri Lanka, where even in Jaffna, their population has declined due to mass emigration, which constitued a majority of Vellalars.

Please review information of Christian missionaries, and early origins in your ping pong battles, some really useful information if presented logically and without bias — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlbusWulfricDumbledore (talk • contribs) 21:54, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

AlbusWulfricDumbledore (talk) 15:51, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

You removed a lot of sourced information without any consensus on the talkpage (See WP:TALKDONTREVERT). As far Damien1994 is concerned, he has been blocked for violating WP:NPOV, for "ping pong" editing, and addition of unpleasent comments and personal analysis. Besides, he provided no references as you stated. FYI, the situation has already been handled by an admin ([1], [2]). You might be right on the concubine part (which I will try research). Otherwhise, the other content that was removed is backed up by several other reliable sources (eg. population, mudaliyar, udaiyar). Xenani (talk) 09:49, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Terrible grammar from last mass content provider and Subdivisions listed on the title card

Not sure, but the divisions are described in the article as being historic terms to describe people who assimilated and not in current usage, unlike the previous lists of some like Pillai, Mudaliyar etc.

Would appreciate if someone more informed on this than me, can take a look at this

Corrected grammar, the person who last mass provided the information made many grammatical mistake, would be good if we kept an eye on new content for this reason

AlbusWulfricDumbledore (talk) 14:52, 15 August 2019 (UTC)