Talk:Solar thermal collector

Merge proposal

There's a link on this page and over at the solar panel article saying that someone suggested that the two articles should be combined. Can't find the source of that, but for the record I don't think they should; "solar panel" has become a generic term for either a PV module or an ST collector; that article should reflect that and provide links to both. Merphant (talk) 02:30, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I Agree that they should remain separate. The solar panel article should just give a brief explanation, but the solar thermal collector page should go into greater detail. For example, I am looking for efficiency numbers for the different types of solar thermal collectors.. that's too much detail for the solar panel page. kshalle

• Separate Trim "solar collector" down and use it as an overview of photovoltaic vs. passive vs. active thermal systems.

When I get a minute ^(tm) I hope to do something on domestic solar thermal collectors too. The current solar thermal collector isn't great anyway and I feel that the demand from an "average readership" is more about potential domestic systems than vast towers or solar kilns in deserts. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:26, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

The concept of solar thermal collectors as treated in the Wikipedia page dealing with "Solar Hot Water" is mostly focused on domestic solar hot water supply, the so-called SHW market. Strictly speaking, SHW technology also referes to industrial applications where solar concentrators and parabolic reflectors are used (here, water is converted to steam). However, the normal usage of "SHW" is firmly oriented towards the technology where water is not heated to steam and this is the household or light industrial context where water is heated some 20-50 degrees C. My proposal is that the page on THERMAL COLLECTOR is expanded to include and emphasise the commercial applications of thermal collectors (there are a few aspects that have not been dealt with adequately, e.g the commercial application of evacuated tubes and progress in the commercial application of flat panels), whereas the household usage of these collectors remain in the page with SOLAR HOT WATER. To merge the two pages as is would harm the context of both pages. However, I strongly support strong reciprocal references between the two pages. WillemFerguson Feb 2nd 2010. Jwhferguson (talk) 16:25, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

There are definitely too many articles and too much overlap. I find it very confusing.

Jwhferguson@ By "Solar hot water" I assume you are referring to the Solar water heating article, right?

Jwhferguson@ I believe this proposal is to merge Solar collector with Solar thermal collector. Do you think there is good reason to have both? Jojalozzo (talk) 02:51, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your very useful comment. Yes, I am referring to Solar water heating. One cannot sensibly discuss solar water heating without discussing the collectors that are used. I am working on text with respect to collectors to be placed in the article on Solar water heating. This will be focused on domestic collectors. What I would like to see is text that will really help potential users of solar hot water in a way to promote the use of this source of renewable energy. In order to achieve this, the article on Solar water heating needs to be absolutely coherent and omitting a discussion of collectors would destroy the coherence. On the other hand, there is clear duplication between Solar thermal collector and Solar water heating and I can see that the present arrangement is not preferable. There is the possibility to merge the articles on Solar thermal collector and Solar water heating. If this were to happen and if one searches Wikipedia for "Solar thermal collector", it would immediately be found. Is there a strong argument that there should be a separate article on "Solar thermal collector"? The strongest argument to keep it separate is probably because the article on Solar water heating is becoming quite long (I expect about 90-100kbytes after I have added some parts I am working on). What do you think? Jwhferguson (talk) 22:02, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Solar thermal collector should be more general and cover all thermal collectors including those that do not heat water, like air heaters or collectors for thermal electric plants. So I do not support merging Solar thermal collector into Solar water heating. It's my understanding that all solar collectors are thermal, whereas solar panels includes both PV and thermal panels. If we agree on that, then I would support merging Solar collector into [[Solar thermal collector]] as an overview treatment of all thermal collectors. Then, as you suggest, fill out the details on collectors for water heating in a section in the Solar thermal collector article. Jojalozzo (talk) 22:40, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Asphalt solar collector

I removed the original text for this section which was copied verbatim from the ICAX web site. Here are two links to web pages with info on this topic that someone might use to create a section with original text that does not mention particular commercial products or plagiarize copyrighted material:
http://www.ooms.nl/english/pages/divisie_handel/road_energy_system.html
http://www.icax.co.uk/asphalt_solar_collector.html Joja
lozzo 20:16, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Particle flow collectors: original research

I copied the following discussion from User talk:Knowm (and indented it to improve readability):

As the originator of the particle flow collector concept, your self-interest may conflict with the interests of this project. I believe the section on that topic in Solar thermal collector that you authored, I removed, and then you immediately replaced, is in violation of WP:OR and WP:COI. I apologize for not making the policies behind my action clearer but I hope with a new understanding of project policies you will see your way to removing that section now. Jojalozzo 18:33, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Ok. What is so weird here is that this idea is actually a new type of solar thermal collector that addresses the limitations and problems of the other types. It would appear that the only way particle flow collectors could find their way onto the artcile is for me to start a company and sell them. How wonderfully ironic!

BTW, the volumetric section has an external link that leads to an attack site.

Knowm (talk) 18:56, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

My interpretation of WP:OR policy is that a technology needs to be developed and become accepted in the industry or in the DIY community before it is suited for reference here. It's the originality, novelty and fringe nature of your work that is problematic. My sense is that you see Wikipedia as a forum for promoting your ideas but that's definitely not its intended purpose. Jojalozzo 19:16, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

There is an unfortunate flaw in this logic that does the public a disservice. Every one of the solar collectors mentioned in that article have strong commercial interests behind them that represent the status-quo. In fact, my idea is the only one without a commercial interest (yet). To "..become accepted in the industry" is problematic because the design competes with these commercial interests. Hence, I would have to actually sell the panels for this information to "..become accepted in the industry". I really do understand your points about conflicts of interest. However, ironically, it also prevents new and exciting concepts from being mentioned, which simultaneously hinders those ideas from becoming commercial because the ideas are suppressed. I suspect this is happening all over Wikipedia. Rather then simply deleting these entries, it would be preferable to more clearly label what they are and let the public find them. For example, make a "recent innovations and developments" section in the articles.

Would it perhaps be agreeable to add a section for "recent innovations in development"? I have little doubt that other promising technologies in many fields are being suppressed because of WP:OR. The end result is a tremendous disservice to the public, as they are prevented from seeing anything but the status quo, which just happens to be controlled by strong commercial interests.

As far as acceptance in the DIY community, I have posted an article on instructables[1] that details how to build these panels and have received positive feedback. I have also posted the idea to forums specifically related to solar thermal and have also received positive feedback. My whole effort is being documented on my blog, and these comments will become part of this.

My hope is to encourage others to innovate. As it turns out, Wikipedia suffers from a flaw that suppresses innovation. This is really quit interesting and would indicate a slight modification to Wikipedia's policy or format should be undertaken to allow the public to see the innovation process in action. It would do the world a great service.

Knowm (talk) 20:32, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

This is not the place to argue for or against WP policy and I am not the right audience for your arguments. WP:OR makes it clear that Wikipedia is not a place to inform people about original research and as I understand it you are not arguing that your collector technology is not original research. On that basis, the section you have added back needs to be removed. I will do it if you prefer. Let me know. Jojalozzo 02:28, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Ok, you can delete it and I will not add it back until a third party has written about the concept (or a third party adds it).

Knowm (talk) 04:21, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

This technology is very interesting and deserves support (just not here at this point in time). See: [http://www.particlepanels.com/] Jojalozzo 05:22, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Ambient Temparature & Stagnation Temperature

Question 1) Is there any simple approximation method of calculating the stagnation temperature of a thermal solar collector given the ambient temperature

Question 2) Also how can the stagnation temperature be greater than the ambient temperature as the heat no heat exchanger can move the heat from colder surface to hotter surface — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.138.120.38 (talk) 09:25, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Answer 1) None that I'm aware of, but it wouldn't be too hard to figure it out. The maximum stagnation temperature would be the point at which heat loss is equal to heat gain. In evacuated tube collectors, since they are insulated so well, this temperature is going to be extremely high. If the line for evacuated tubes were from [this picture] were extended, it would intersect the x-axis at roughly 700 degrees (F).

Answer 2) Stagnation occurs when no heat is intentionally being drawn from the collectors. If the water storage tank is already hot, a system with a controller will recognize this and quit pumping water / heat transfer fluid to and from the collector. When the pump is shut off, the only way for the collectors to lose heat is through dissipation to the surrounding air, and their ability to shed heat in this manner is dependent on their r-value (i.e. the rating of their thermal insulation.) SolarCoordinates (talk) 17:04, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Rotating solar boiler

Perhaps the rotating solar boiler made by Jeroen van Luijtelaer can be described briefly in the article ? See http://www.builditsolar.com/Experimental/RSB/RSB.htm , http://www.builditsolar.com/Experimental/RSB/The_RSB.pdf

91.182.132.72 (talk) 13:43, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Efficiency Graph

I looked up the source of the "rainy-day" collector graph (itssolar.co.za) and found the reference (a PDF file at http://www.itssolar.co.za/downloads.php). Because of the "Dubious" and "who" tags, I went to the talk page but didn't find any relevant comments on it. I don't know if I'm intruding on a religious war on evacuated-tube versus flat-panel, but I inserted the correct references for the source of that graph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bseegmiller (talk • contribs) 17:03, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Evacuated tubes, open on both ends?

What are double-walled evacuated tubes called, that are open on both ends? Is there a specific industry name for them? -- DMahalko (talk) 11:43, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

ICS and evacuated flat panels

New content on ICS and evacuated flat panels has no sources and appears to be OR. Are there sources for this? Jojalozzo 14:20, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Integral collection storage article

found an online journal with an article that may help this Wiki article: http://solarenergyengineering.asmedigitalcollection.asme.org/article.aspx?articleid=1454451 Lorrie (talk) 16:26, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Material of back plate and piping

In the article, copper is mentioned as a material for the back plate, but there is no disctinction between the metals of the piping and the back plate. I mentioned PEX-AL-PEX at the Cross-linked_polyethylene#PEX-AL-PEX article, but we need to add text about the metals used of both parts here aswell, and mention PEX-AL-PEX as well as aluminum (mentioned briefly at this page but only for back plate)

Furthermore , pex-al-pex isn't listed at List_of_thermal_conductivities, please include that at that page too

KVDP (talk) 15:18, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

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Improve other sections

Hello, I tried to improve the Solar-thermal collectors heating water section by reorganizing and removing unnecessary text plus providing additional references and a whole new subsection about evacuated flat plate collectors. I will continue to work on this, but I believe that the Solar-thermal collectors heating air section requires a similar work too and unfortunately I have no sufficient competences for this. Also i believe that the graphic format of the whole page (in particular tables) has to be improved and again I'm not expert for this. Solar thermal collectors are a very important subject and I feel sorry for the current version of the page when compared to that for solar panels. Let's make an effort!

Cheers Vgpalmieri (talk) 09:10, 29 April 2019 (UTC)