Talk:Sharif Sheikh Ahmed/Archive 1

Name throughout the article

Should it be "Ahmed" instead of "Sheikh Sharif"? If you have an opinion, comment at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Africa#Sharif_Sheikh_Ahmed. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:38, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Good question Gråbergs Gråa Sång. ‎ Ahmed is a patronymic name, so in this case his given name should be used. 'Sheikh' is an inherited honorific title and it should also be used with the given name as has been done throughout the article.

Please see MOS:HON + MOS:GIVENNAME

Amirah talk 13:32, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

How do you get "Sheikh' is an inherited honorific title and it should also be used with the given name" out of MOS:HON? It says the opposite. Sources like [1][2][3] use "Ahmed" in the running text, I see no reason we shouldn't too. "Sheikh Sharif" comes across as fan-ish. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:50, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

These are two separate issues. The first issue about using Sheikh, you are right, it should be used only with the first occurrence of the name. The second issue about using the name Ahmed, the Wikipedia policy is described in MOS:GIVENNAME for patronymic names. Patronymic names use the person's given name followed by their father's given name. There is no surname. Dropping someone's given name and calling them by their father's given name is not correct, even if the BBC do it, even if Al Jazeera do it, and why should we follow BBC or Al Jazeera policy rather than Wikipedia's own policy? I agree you can drop the honorific 'Sheikh' after the first occurance, but I disagree with your second idea about using the name Ahmed instead of Sharif. It is simply not correct to do so, and there is no reason why using his own given name should be any more 'fan-ish' than using his father's given name, their name simply identifies which person you are referring to.
Amirah talk 16:14, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

You may have a point on that. However, per "Ethiopian and Eritrean people are almost always referred to by their given name as they do not have a family name. There are some rare exceptions to this: where the person—usually a member of the later generations of the Eritrean diaspora or Ethiopian diaspora—has adopted the patronymic as a formal family name." (my emphasis) I don't know if Ahmed has done this, but the WP:RS above + Reuters [4] seems to have done it for him, and following the WP:RS is policy. We'll see if other editors can be bothered to have an opinion. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:44, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

No, he hasn't done it and in my opinion should not be forced to do it because some foreign media do it. This is a BLP and it is for him to make the decision if he wants to change the way he is addressed to follow a convention which is foreign to him, not for the media to decide that for him. Besides not all media do it, you are only mentioning the one's which do.
Amirah talk 17:06, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Ah, but this is a foreign website ;-) Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:15, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Not everyone who edits this website is foreign to the subject of the BLP, some of them are Somali.

Please also note that the President who preceded him was called Ahmed and also referred to as Ahmed throughout his Wikipedia biography page, so if you insist on using Western naming conventions you would be creating ambiguity and confusion here. There are other Wikipedia pages in which both of them are mentioned on the same page too, which makes it even more confusing to readers which of them you would be refering to if you decide to name both of them Ahmed.
Amirah talk 17:37, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Concur that, per MOS:HON, it should not be "Sheikh" except in the lead sentence. Tentatively agree with the MOS:GIVENNAME analysis, with regard to patronymics. However, the fact that even Al Jazeera (!) treats it as if a surname in his case is suggestive that we need to do further research on this case. It is quite possible he identifies as Ahmed, used like a surname. This is, after all, increasingly common due to Westernization/globalization. It's also possible that "Sheikh Ahmed" is being re-parsed as something like a European nobility title (e.g. "Baron Glenconnor" in "Colin Tennant, 3rd Baron Glenconner"; he can be referred to as Tennant or as Glenconner, depending on context).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:59, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Come to think of it, it would be helpful if the article could state what it means that he is a Sheikh. I'm guessing it's related to "Thus, his religious upbringing and education allowed him to succeed his father as the spiritual leader of the Idrisiyya Order of Sufism in Somalia.", but that is not that clear to this reader. This Somali_aristocratic_and_court_titles#Religious_leaders may be a good wiki-link. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:10, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

WP:LEADIMAGE

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  2009
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  What 2009 should have looked like
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  2012 (visits Balad Town)
• 2020 Election Campaign copyvio
  2020 Election Campaign copyvio
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  2011
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  2012 (Somali MPs Inauguration Ceremony)
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  2012 (also visits Balad Town)
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  2010
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  2011 group
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  2011 TFG

There's been a recent disagreement about the leadimage. Opinions? IMO they're both ok, I slightly prefer the 2012 one. If there's a newer one available, I'd be interested to see it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:58, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

I too, prefer the 2012 photo and agree that it would be better to have a newer one, ideally from the current (2020-2021) election campaign.
Amirah talk 14:30, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

I believe that the 2009 photo is far better. The 2012 photo is too dark and it is difficult to see his facial features. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 17:38, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Was it time-sensitive? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:35, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

@Cullen328: The 2009 photo is too bright. File:Sharif Sheikh Ahmed, 12th AU Summit, 090202-N-0506A-337.jpg is the source for the 2009 photo, I uploaded a properly adjusted version. I still dislike it because of the ugly white plastic earphone. The man is black, we shouldn't portray him in any other way. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 14:51, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

I totally agree with Alexis Jazz on this. Amirah talk 15:20, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Abdallem You are welcome to add your opinion here on the article talk page, which image your prefer and why.
Amirah talk 20:11, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Now I'd say the 2020 image is the current winner, but it could use a good cropping. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:28, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång: copyvio. To be expected after "Listen buddy, drop your nonesene threats, there are thousands of pictures of the former president, for whatever reason, you have elected to choose the single worst picture imaginable" — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 14:06, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Back to 2012 then. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:50, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Alexis Jazz, Btw, how come the should have image is on WP instead of Commons? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:13, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång: Because I uploaded it locally. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 22:21, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Based on that, I just nominated the 2020 image for deletion on Commons. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:34, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång: Good idea. I just hope the closing admin will notice that Abdallem actually uploaded two very similar screenshots from that video. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 20:53, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång, AmirahBreen, and Cullen328: Added alternatives. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 14:07, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Still prefer #3/2012 (visits Balad Town) Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:34, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

I don't think any of the alternatives are suitable, that's is why it would help if his political office were made aware of the process for uploading images onto Wikimedia Commons, so that we can use them; but dare I say it, for the risk of being accused of conflict of interest. The current 2012 (Visits Balad town) photo is the most suitable one we have at the moment Alexis Jazz, and you were right to have chosen it. Amirah talk 14:25, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

@AmirahBreen: Like Gråbergs Gråa Sång, when you said "I will speak to Sharif about it myself" I too thought you possibly were a close friend, family member or staff member. Thanks for clearing up what you meant. Btw, as I didn't say in my previous comment, for me personally I think the inauguration ceremony picture is also okay but sadly so much more blurry because it was cropped from a much larger picture. Still second best for me though. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 15:35, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

@Alexis Jazz I think the inauguration ceremony picture was taken at a time when he had put some weight on. If you look at pictures before or after this period in time his face looks less round. That is not to say it is not a good picture, but the Ballad Town one looks closer to what he looks like today, if you look at more recent pictures of him which are online. Amirah talk 16:31, 2 February 2021 (UTC) Amirah talk 16:34, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Abdallem changed the picture again, but this time to File:President of the Somali Transitional Federal Government (4419858792).jpg which I have cropped. I dunno, it's okay I guess. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 18:19, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

IMO it doesn't look "better" and is older, so it's a worse alternative. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:57, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

I don't know if Abdallem is having difficulty finding this conversation. I think a cropped version of the picture would do at least until something more suitable becomes available and it would keep them happy too (he refers to himself as 'we' so perhaps there is more than one person behind that username). But the cropped version does look a little hazy, partly because of the shadow behind him. It is necessary to go quite so close up? Amirah talk 18:32, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

No, it's not necessary, beyond "we should be able to see who it is" there's a possible range, see for example List of presidents of Somalia. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:12, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

@AmirahBreen and Gråbergs Gråa Sång: But the cropped version does look a little hazy, partly because of the shadow behind him. It is necessary to go quite so close up? I made it a bit wider and removed the shadow, not sure it makes that much of a difference though. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 19:34, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Alexis Jazz Yes, it does look better now you've done that. Amirah talk 20:54, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

That picture from 2012 is hideous and looks unprofessional, there is no other way to put it, it's not a fair REPRESENTATION of the former president.

We have posted a different picture from Wikimedia, why was it changed again, if you wanted to zoom in or even go with a different more professional picture by all means, we once again ask the wiki community members to be more professional and courteous, kindly stop re-uploading that hideous, unflattering and unprofessional picture.

Just to prove there are better pictures even within Wikimedia, we'll upload a different image. Abdallem (talk) 19:01, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Abdallem 1: Who are "we"? See WP:NOSHARE. 2: STOP EDITWARRING and let the discussion take it's time. THAT is "professional" on WP. See WP:COMMUNICATE. Suggest new alternatives on THIS TALKPAGE. And about "hideous and looks unprofessional", see WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Your opinion is one of many. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:07, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Now Abdallem has explained that he feels that in the Balad Town photo Sharif had a worried expression. I have mentioned that I have a condition which could predispose me to Alexithymia and therefore do not wish to challenge his views on this as we all see things differently, but my own views may be different from the majority. I also feel that any Somali would be more familiar with photos of Sheikh Sharif and therefore they would be more likely to recognise if their former president looked worried or concerned about something, so if they feel strongly against it then it is better not to use the Balad Town photo. Amirah talk 22:34, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

@AmirahBreen, Gråbergs Gråa Sång, Cullen328, Mirer, and Buckshot06: Could we finally have a winner with the 2011 TFG crop I just uploaded? (Mirer has reverted me on dewiki and Wikidata, so pinging them too) I made it a bit brighter than it should be (but not as bad as the 2009 photo) as a lot of people seem to have either broken displays or a belief that black people should be white or something and it'll just get reverted again otherwise. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 20:50, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

I still prefer the 2010 photo, and I don't think there have been any objections against it from anybody. Amirah talk 21:01, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

The whole reason we are thinking of changing the Balad Town photo is because Abdallem didn't like it.Amirah talk 21:04, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

@AmirahBreen: Mirer and Cullen328 preferred something other than the current photo as well. (albeit for different reasons) The color in the 2010 photo isn't quite right (and not easy to fix) and he's looking slightly down (because he's standing on a podium), so it's not my first choice. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 21:20, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Photo #1 possibly as a temporary measure until a better one comes up, but he is looking toward the righthand side of the page, I thought you said that is not ideal Amirah talk 22:05, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

@AmirahBreen: All else being equal, a photo of the subject looking to the left is preferred over a photo of the subject looking to the right. In this case however, there simply is no perfect photo so we must find one that we can all agree is at least acceptable. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 00:12, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

@Roman Kubanskiy: The image was changed per consensus. @Gråbergs Gråa Sång: There are btw a few more recent (2017) images, but they're no use for the infobox. They might be usable elsewhere in the article: [5] and [6]. I can upload them here if you want, but it may be easier if you upload them yourself as Upload Wizard has a feature to import from Flickr. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 08:04, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

The first one is interesting, but afaict [7][8], the license is "wrong". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:52, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång: What's the problem? Copyright don't exist in Somalia. They have a copyright law, but it requires registration and no copyright registration office exists. To be fair, Somalia has bigger problems. So PDM can easily be correct for Somalia. (it doesn't have to be, copyright could exist outside of Somalia, but that's complicated and if UNSOM says PDM I'd trust them) Also, the DR you linked is from May 2020. In August 2020 Commons changed policy, so that DR wouldn't have happened after that. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 09:07, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Live and learn. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:44, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång: You're welcome. Btw, it appears you didn't use the "Share images from Flickr" button (below "Select media files to share" on this screenshot) for the upload, I'm curious why? UploadWizard should be able to take care of inserting the correct license template and license review template, should be less effort than entering all the info by hand I think? — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 10:30, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

My first masterpiece

I'm sure you're correct, but I'm a novice at Commons, this is the second image ever I've uploaded there (none on WP), and I just followed the "Upload file" link there ("Drop files here") as I understood it. Maybe next time. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:57, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

I see. It's just a matter of convenience, uploading either way is fine. Give it a try next time. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 14:54, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

WP:LEADIMAGE survey

@AmirahBreen, Gråbergs Gråa Sång, Cullen328, Mirer, and Buckshot06: I don't think we'll be able to unanimously agree that any of these is the best, so please show your preference here. (edit: in your subsection, if you want to vote but don't have a subsection yet, add one) — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 21:20, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

We'll give it a few days, but so far, this looks productive. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:21, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Ok, it's been 48h+, and it seems reasonably clear that the will of this particular sub-set of The People is that we use File:President breaks ground on new TFG Training Camp (6151109452) (cropped).jpg, photoshopped, (un) tilted and paler than the original though it be. I'm inserting it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:42, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Well, that didn't last long. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:29, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång: For reference, I've uploaded this file which better approximates the correct white balance. Sadly images of black people occasionally get overcorrected like the 2009 photo and also see the file histories of File:Doria Ragland.png and the former infobox photo. That's why I had made the current infobox image a bit too pale: to avoid extreme overcorrection in the future. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 08:52, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:55, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Alexis Jazz

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I prefer image #1. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 21:24, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

I prefer image #5 Amirah talk 21:30, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

@AmirahBreen, Cullen328, Mirer, and Alexis Jazz: I think Alexis Jazz was hoping for a "Best (1), second best (2)" etc. It's worth trying. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:55, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Sorry Mirer, didn't mean to ping you. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:57, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

AmirahBreen

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Alexis Jazz Your comment that he is looking down in the photo from Chatam House, that is culturally acceptable in many countries where the majority of people are Muslim. It is seen as a sign of modesty and respect. Many Muslims have chosen profile photos of themselves looking downwards on social media websites. You can see this body language with Sharif particular on photos and videos from the press conference with Hilary Clinton, at the points where she shakes his hand and when she pins the US flag beside the Somali flag on his lapel he is looking downwards.

Many photos were taken at these moments because it marked an important moment in history. People from other cultures may interpret it differently when they see a photo of someone looking downwards. They may think that the person looks shy and nervous for example. In the discussion on this page about naming conventions an editor suggested 'this is a foreign website', implying that therefore we should use 'foreign' naming conventions. My personal take on this is that we have a moral responsibility to consider how Wikipedia BLP's influence the world on a global level.

The influence of this profile is strongest in Somalia, so we should consider how the choice of photo will be seen by Somalia people. Head's of State of any country are also important on a global level concerning internal diplomatic relations. So, it is important how non-Somalis will interpret our choice of photo, but that is secondary. This is why I have gone with photos which Abdallem as my first and second choice. As far as I am aware, none of us are Somali and we cannot see the photos from their point of view. He has been banned from editing the page for a week. I think it would be beneficial to also ask his opinion on the choice before actually changing the photo.

Buckshot06

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Prefer AlexisJazz's pictures 1 and 2 in that order. Buckshot06 (talk) 08:58, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Cullen328

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Mirer

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Thanks for the ping. Most important to me (and in most cases on "de") is that the face is almost in complete view, so that you're able to recognize people, if you see them again.
Here in the mini-pictures #3 looks much better than #2 but in a normal size (as in our articles) I prefer #2 over #3. --mirer (talk) 23:11, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Gråbergs Gråa Sång

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WP:COI?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

AmirahBreen, per your words here [9], it seems that you have a WP:Conflict of interest concerning this article, is that correct? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:29, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

No, I don't have any conflict of interest. Amirah talk 00:55, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

I don't think it's fair of you to suggest on the talk page for this article that I have a conflict of interest. You have not even explained why you would think that and it is something you could have asked me on my talk page. I am asking you to delete your comment about this after you have seen my response unless you can give me any sensible reason why you should think it. It is as if you disagree with me over some issue and so you are trying to undermine my right to edit the page with no evidence. Amirah talk 01:02, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

@AmirahBreen: You said "I will speak to Sharif about it myself". If you are close enough to the subject to be able to talk with them personally, a question about a possible COI is obviously justified. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 06:26, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

That. "I asked Sheikh Sharif's associates to upload more recent pictures to Wikimedia Commons. I will speak to Sharif about it myself..." makes it quite possible that you fall in the "about yourself, family, friends, clients, employers, or your financial and other relationships." group. It was a reasonable question in a reasonable place. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:03, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Also, edits like this [10] are inadvisable per WP:TPO. Basically, don't remove other's edits or your own if someone has replied from article talk-pages. There was indeed "evidence", as in reason to ask the question. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:15, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

I have reverted the disputed photo once again. This whole article is thick with promotional material. Buckshot06 (talk) 10:32, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

(ec)That said, I see now that the WP:COICOIN guideline says that I should have started this at User talk:AmirahBreen. Not sure what is "best" now, OhnoitsjamieCullen328, do you wish to comment? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:34, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

According to Wikipedia guidelines, this discussion should not have appeared on the article talk page, it should have appeared on the user talk page, and I suggest that it be archived. Amirah talk 10:18, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Nothing prevents adding automatic archiving to this talkpage. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:08, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Clarifications

In response to some concerns about WP:COI, I posted the following comments on a user talk page.

Let me be totally clear. Every political leader who has held office in Somalia since 1990 has been implicated in corruption, or much worse things like atrocities and war crimes. I have no evidence to suggest that Sharif_Sheikh_Ahmed is an exception. This article is undeniably positive throughout -- presents him as a paragon, when academic evidence suggests that Somalis have been disgusted with the corruption and misbehaviour of their leaders since before the 1969 coup. I spent years fighting with Middayexpress over the Somali Armed Forces article, and when I start digging into Sheikh Ahmed's history, I believe a lot of the text will have to change. Middayexpress was blocked for egregious violation of WP rules. I would kindly draw attention to the repeated requests for widescale Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions to be applied to Horn of Africa contexts at [here] - link to be inserted. Kind regards to all, Buckshot06 (talk) 18:47, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Cordless Larry can I please bring you in here? Would you mind pointing us to the most recent discussion -- cannot remember which board it was at. Buckshot06 (talk) 18:51, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Are you looking for Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Horn of Africa, Buckshot06? Cordless Larry (talk) 20:21, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

[there was a request for clarification], and I gave the following elaboration: "In order: (a) "The National Assembly had “been turned into a sordid marketplace where deputies traded their votes for personal reward with scant regard for the interests of their constituents"; that's Ioan Lewis, ‘The Politics of the 1969 Somali Coup’, The Journal of Modern African Studies, 10, no. 3 (1972): 398-400, talking of the disgust of Somalis about the civilian government before the military coup. (B) I am reminding all concerned with Somali articles that editors have been blocked, permanently, for attempting to breech WP:NPOV. (C) This article is right now completely positively biased; if I find something that is relevant, WP:NOTABLE, and useful to NPOV discussion about Sheikh Ahmed's political record that is unambiguously positive to his image, why, that will go in too."

Please do yourself a favour and read WP:NPOV if you have not done so already.

WP is not for whitewashing positive images of anyone, political leaders included; it is for a balanced portrait of WP:RELIABLESOURCES, replicating generally what those reliable sources say. Buckshot06 (talk) 19:24, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Father of Modern Somalia

I moved "Father of Modern Somalia" from the first sentence to farther down in the lead and unbolded it (diff). (Note that even Gandhi and George Washington don't have "Father of the Nation" in the first sentence) However, I'm not sure it should be in the lead at all. The sources for the claim are:

• Garowe Online, which describes itself as the online sister publication of Radio Garowe, a community radio station based in Garowe, the State capital of Puntland, a self-governing region in northern Somalia ([11]).
• The Standard, which appears to be a Kenya-based publication.

This is a very strong claim to put in Wikipedia's voice, and I'd like to see better sourcing. Neither the BBC nor The New York Times uses this name for Ahmed.

Pinging editors who have recently been involved with the article for input: @AmirahBreen, @Buckshot06, @Gråbergs Gråa Sång, @Abdallem, @Alexis Jazz

-- Rublov (talk) 16:46, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Per WP:LEAD I suggest moving it from the lead altogether. It's not a summary of article text, so it shouldn't be there. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:07, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Sharif brought the Somali government through the transitional phase establishing a full-fledged government with international recognition. The sources are valid reliable sources. I don't think this can be compared with Ghandi or George Washington as 'Modern Somalia' is not India or U.S.A. Also, 'Father of the Nation' are not the words used. The word 'nation' does not always imply only those living in shared territory such as a 'country', and the word 'modern' is also included in the title, which implies since the government moved out of the transitional phase. To say that this title is synonymous with 'Father of the nation' would be an exaggeration as the Somali nation existed long before the current internationally recognised government. Amirah talk 17:22, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Take it out of the lead altogether. Leave it in one of the chronological sections. Buckshot06 (talk) 17:39, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

I note that the refs given contradict each other: "Sharif is known as "Father of Modern Somalia" because of his achievements when he served as president "/"Before ascending to the presidency, Sharif considered by many people as the ‘Father of Modern Somalia’". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:06, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Here is another ref [12] which I think support "Not WP:LEAD-stuff." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:11, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

@AmirahBreen: your latest edit still violates WP:NPOV. It is not normal for the first sentence of an article about a politician to highlight their achievements. Look at Franklin D. Roosevelt or Winston Churchill or Barack Obama. Each uses the same basic format, which this article also used until you changed it. I ask that you self-revert until you have consensus for your change. Rublov (talk) 19:28, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

I have swapped the order of the lede to satisfy your request Rublov, although you have not stated any wikipedia guideline to substantiate your claim. Amirah talk 20:20, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång I don't see how the two references contradict each other. It looks to me as if you have taken the second one out of context. In your quote above you have taken out the last part of the sentence which has altered it's meaning. Amirah talk 20:36, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Reading that again (twice), I think you're right. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:45, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Presidential term (2009-2012)

Contents moved from lede to section on 2009-2019 presidential term, which describes a brief summary of his presidential term at the start of the section. Amirah talk 09:34, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Presidents

Sharif (right) and Hassan Sheikh Mohamud (left), flanking Mohamed Abdullahi Mohamed at Mohamed's inauguration as president in 2017

@AmirahBreen, why did you remove this image? It's a good one and fits the section well. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:35, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

The central figure in the image is President Mohamed, not Sharif. I considered that as there are usually only a few images on a BLP page, it was more important to have an image in which Sharif is the central figure, illustrating what he is doing, rather than to have an image of another Somali president which shows Sharif in the background. It is an NPOV issue. You wouldn't want to have an image of Biden winning the elections and Trump standing behind him on Trump's BLP page, so why would you expect that you should do this with Somali politicians? Images of President Mohamed's inauguration ceremony are on his own page and also the Somali election page for 2017. Instead, I added an image of Sharif chairing a meeting with his political party, Himilo Qaran, duing the current election campaign, which I consider more appropriate for his BLP page. Amirah talk 11:54, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Well, images are subjective, and unlike Trump, Sharif did the classy thing and showed up though he lost the election. If we're going WP:OTHERCONTENT, here's Obama on McCains page: John_McCain#Remainder_of_fourth_Senate_term. I don't see it as a NPOV problem. We'll see if other editors have opinions. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:17, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

If you count the number of images on McCains page, it is also about how the choice of this particular image to illustrate a person's life weighs against the other images on the page. If most of the other sub-sections on the page had images, then I may agree with you. But I don't have strong feelings on the issue, if you want to put the image back then I don't mind at all. Amirah talk 12:24, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Why was the picture changed again

Hello guys,

We've been through this before, I would like to know why the picture of the former president has been changed again, I thought we came to understanding. As the only somali person monitoring this page do any of you care to explain to me why such an ugly unprofessional picture is once again being used to represent our former president during this critical time, whilst there is an election taking place in the country.

From our previous discussions, I was led to believe we came to an understanding. Abdallem (talk) 09:45, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Current leadpic

One alternative

WP-articles change, the current pic was added by an editor (who I think is somewhat of a fan of the subject) who thought it was good. It is correctly and legally (afaict) uploaded on Commons, clear enough that it's Sharif and recent, all good points in WP-land. That you think it's not pretty enough matters less (I'll admit that I've seen photos I like better, but I've also seen much worse). It's a pic of a politician working, it's not "ugly". Most pics we can use are "unprofessional", as in done by volunteers, though.

Suggest another 2021 pic from Category:Sharif Sheikh Ahmed or correctly supply us with one you think is better, perhaps others will agree. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:27, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Gråbergs Gråa Sång, who I think is somewhat of a fan of the subject Or a fan of money? — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 09:06, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Potato, potato. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:12, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Gråbergs Gråa Sång, File:Sharif Sheikh Ahmed.jpg (lead image before 10 November 2021) and File:Shariif Sheekh Axmed.jpg have respectively no usable source (ffs don't deeplink images on Twitter! Just link the tweet!) and no source whatsoever because AmirahBreen didn't add any. They could be okay, but might not be. If he was speaking outside Somalia, it's not okay. If the Associated Press came to Somalia and took a photo, it's IIRC not okay. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 08:57, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Well, I guess we can use them until they're deleted. Perhaps a fan will provide us with a more clearly licensed one at some point. It's quite possible AmirahBreen got them where they said, but of course that is unclear. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:11, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

For the interested, previous pic-discussion at Talk:Sharif_Sheikh_Ahmed/Archive_1#WP:LEADIMAGE. Newer pics have appeared since that discussion. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:39, 28 December 2021 (UTC)