Talk:Seam Zone

seam zone definition

Seam zone "Kav Hatefer" refers to areas within israel green line as well as the area next to the barrier route. Zeq (talk) 14:19, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

The sources I have read indicate the term is used only for the area between the barrier and the green line (I added a new one from Human Rights Watch to that effect). Can you please provide a link to the material you say indicates a different definition (and a short translation of the relevant text for non-Hebrew readers would be nice, if it is indeed in Hebrew). Thanks. Tiamut^talk 14:38, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

sources in Hebrew are mixed. Some refer to "Merhav Hatefer" as the area east of the green line and some refer to "Kav hatefer" (as in yeshuvei Kav Hatafer" for areas near the green line but from the west side. Zeq (talk) 14:52, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Number of those affected

The source used in the article say: "The court ruled that Israel would have to balance its security needs with the needs of Palestinians. The court decision said the barrier caused undue hardship for 35,000 Palestinians who would be cut off from their farmland, schools and jobs. " But the article using much higher numbers. Can you correct and use sources for each number ? Tnx. Zeq (talk) 14:59, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi there. Each of the figures cited (indeed, every sentence in the article) has a source from which it was taken. As far as I can tell, they are all faithful to the sources. Is there one in particular that you think is incorrect and if so, can you correct it yourself? Thanks. Tiamut^talk 15:07, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes. the quote I broght above is from the source cited in the article yet the number in the article is about 9x bigger. Zeq (talk) 15:31, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, um, if you keep reading the article, it says further down:

An Israeli human rights group says there are now about 57,000 Palestinians isolated in enclaves surrounded by the security barrier. The United Nations says that if the series of walls, fences, barbed wire and ditches is completed along its planned route, about a third of West Bank Palestinians will be affected. About 274,000 will be trapped in enclaves and about 400,000 blocked from their fields, jobs, schools and hospitals.

Tiamut^talk 15:49, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

And as you know the court changed the route for that reason and now the number is about 35,000 (also from same source) . We should update the article to refelct reality not the initial estiamtes which were X10 over what it is in facts. Zeq (talk) 15:59, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

For the purposes of Wikipedia, I don't "know" anything, unless there is a source that says it. Please provide updated sources you would like to see used. Thanks. Tiamut^talk 16:17, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

based on what you know (and you do know:-) you should be able to search and find sources .... that is what we always do and no reason not to do it here as well. Zeq (talk) 18:19, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

General problem with this article - No NPOV

Tiamut, you have wrote most of this article. I wonder if you have tried doing what the WP:NPOV policy require us to do - which is "to write for the enemy". Where is the importance of the seanmzone to as a buffer for Israel's security needs ? where is the rational to establish it, the info about suicide bomebrs that tried to cross it. There are two sides to each coin in the Middle east conflict and one side is toatly missing from this article. Tnx. Zeq (talk) 15:05, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Zeq, do you have sources that say these things? Because if you do, I'd be happy to incorporate them into the article. If not, this is just soapboxing and I frankly resent the insinuation that I purposely omitted Israeli perspectives. I did in fact use three different Israeli sources in the article. One from the Israeli MFA, to write:

The day prior to the issuing of the military order, the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs released a Cabinet Communique which explained that the establishment of the seam zone was of the "utmost importance," citing also the "strong security need for building a security barrier in the 'seam zone' and in the 'Jerusalem envelope'."[5]

The other Israeli source is HaMoked, who challenged the legality of the government's order in a petition to the Supreme Court., and the third is the Israeli human rights groupBtselem. In fact, whereas I used three Israeli sources, I only used two Palestinian ones, and the rest are Western news agencies or international human rights groups. If you feel that the Israeli government perspective requires more in the way of documentation, please provide sources, think about adding them yourself, or if you require assistance, you can post them here and I will help you. Thanks. Tiamut^talk 15:15, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Hamoked. (which is an israeli cenetr for human rights) This is a nice way to implement NPOV. You use some int'l sources which take a pro-Palestinian view, some Palestinian sources which take a pro-Palestinian view and an israeli source(Ha-Moked) which take a pro-palestinian view....

Let's try to do some better work here. This article is almost completly your work. As I was googling for nerhav hatefer and Kav hatefer I found sources not mentioned here. Even in the sources used in the article there rae facts not mentioned.

This is not for soapboxing. this is for implemeting NPOV policy. I am sure you can do a better job and present both views and you can do it using many sources MFA would be one but there are neutral sources who also describe the rational behind building a seam zone. Zeq (talk) 15:30, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Zeq, as the article is almost completely my work thus far, so why don't you add something to it, instead of criticizing my good faith efforts? Why don't you provide actual links to references that could be of value, instead of just criticizing my choice of references? Are you here simply to critique the work of others and bestow passing or failing grades? Or are you here to build an encyclopedia? Why not actually do that? Thanks. Tiamut^talk 15:47, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Tiamut, since you do read Hebrew here is an example of what NPOV should like like: First the facts what it is, next what are the reason for establishing it and next a discussion describing the different views of it: [1] Zeq (talk) 15:39, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Zeq, instead of using Wikipedia Hebrew as our model, why not provide some English language sources you think would be useful here? Thanks. Tiamut^talk 15:47, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

1st, the model is not so bad and since you read Hebrew you can sue it. Surly it is better than the one sidedness found here. Next, using only the same sources cited in the article... Even those sources give a much more balanced view and bring both sides of the argument. Surly you realize that it is a human right" not to be killed by a terrorist.... so even human right organization like Btselem mention the role of the seam zone in creating protection. I am sure more can be added I want to give you a chance to make this article NPOV. maybe something about all the suicide bomebers caught inside the seam zone before being able to detonate inside Israel ? Zeq (talk) 16:02, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Sources, sources, sources, please. Spare me your speculation that suicide bombers have been caught in the Seam Zone before being able to detonate themselves. Provide me a source that says that instead. The Hebrew article you directed me to doesn't cite even one source. And besides being a complete work of WP:OR, it's also very unbalanced. Please Zeq, provide sources you would like to see included, or make concrete suggestions on how to alter the introduction to provide more balance. I can't respond to vague, general critiques that offer nothing in the way of concrete solutions. Thanks. Tiamut^talk 16:25, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

So far only sources that you have used are used in the article. still it is a bit more NPOV now than it was before. We still have a long way to describe life in the seanm Zone see this for example: [2] (description of an academic study) an article on police complex job in the seam zone: [3], sources on the history[4],description how a terrorist passed through the seam zone [5] - the doc also give his own account how after increasing the security arrengment it is much harder to penetrate into Israel. BTW, the head of the PIJ also said so in an interview to an Arab news paper few days ago.

I want to be clear: I do not deny the hardship placed on the Palestinians who live in the seam zone or those who own land there or need to cross it on way to work. They are not the guilty party here they only suffer. there is also Jewish population that is innocent and they are ebing protected by the seamzone. for NPV we should describe both. Zeq (talk) 16:57, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

sources for bomber exploded in a gate/checkpoint in the sepration fence prevented from getting into Israel:

"A Palestinian suicide bomber riding a bicycle blew himself up near an IDF checkpoint in the West Bank, wounding at least three Israeli soldiers, one of them seriously, and two Palestinians. Lt.-Col. Shimon, an Israeli commander at the scene, said the incident had occurred as Palestinian farmers crossed through a gate in Israel's separation Wall near Qalqilya. "He looked like an innocent civilian. ... It appears he even spoke to the soldiers," said the officer, who is barred from giving his last name under IDF rules. "Then he turned the bike around and blew up." An anonymous caller to AFPoffices in Nablus said the attack had been carried out by Yussef Taleb Ighbariyeh, 26, from Qalqilya"[6]

and look up this source as well [7] see the date Sep 14, 2004. --Zeq (talk) 17:12, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

source showing that the bomber failed to enter into Israel:

" The Palestinian suicide bomber on a bicycle blew up at a West Bank crossing, wounding three Israeli soldiers, one seriously (his injuries are life-threatening, according to doctors). The bomber blew himself up at the checkpoint after he failed to get into Israel proper. " [8]

--Zeq (talk) 17:16, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Using all this to discuss the seam zone itself is WP:SYNTH. The sources need to make the connection to the motivation for security for us. --Relata refero (disp.) 11:56, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

none of this is curently used in the article. However to claim that the word 'seam zone" is a must is not true. The sources describe a bomber who blue him self ina gate in the security fence i.e. u[pon entry to the seamzone. sources describe he was en route to israel... Zeq (talk) 12:02, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Possibly, but we can't make the link to the seam zone/security it provides ourselves. The sources have to do it for us. There must be some editorials on the subject in Ma'ariv/Jpost or YA but I can't seem to find them. I'll look at he:wp later. --Relata refero (disp.) 12:05, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, that wasn't helpful, no sources there... --Relata refero (disp.) 12:08, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

There are pleanty such sources but most of them are in Hebrew. The term seam Zone (in Hebrew "Merhav ha tefer") was coined even before the security fence - so most those articles are from 2000-2002. later the terminlogy changed to "Security fence". The goverment body that build the fence is actually called "Minhelet Kav hatefer" (zeam zone authority). All in all it sems this article is actully the same as west bank barrier and thus may need to be merged. Zeq (talk) 12:12, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I meant that the he:wp article didn't point me to any usable ones. Most of the government documentation seems to be pre-2003. I think that's because the original plan was superceded following the Comptroller's report - Dua ha-Biqoret be-Nose Merhav ha-Tefer if my transliteration is correct - and the subsequent decision in 2003 to raise local security fences in a couple of areas, which was then expanded. The government documentation seems pretty scathing about implementation of the seam area as a first stage, but there may be something there about motivation. If you can find a few sources on motivation -which I can't, directly - its better than nothing. --Relata refero (disp.) 13:51, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[9], [10] --Zeq (talk) 15:30, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Well of course I saw the גדר לחיים website but the problem is that they're also a pressure group, aren't they. I suppose we could look at the מטרה section of the attached paper and extrapolate a bit and say that could according to them, the "establishment of separation between populated areas will reduce attacks on Israeli population centers" but first of all, they are in the end talking about a fence, not the seam zone, and second, we really should try and find a media report or a government report on it.

Unfortunately the MOD's site's not opening for me, so if someone could look at that.... --Relata refero (disp.) 19:04, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Wadi Fukin

Tiamut I was wondering whether or not Wadi Fukin is included in the Bethlehem Seam Zone area? Its sandwiched between an Israeli town in Gush Etzion and the border with Israel. You could look at any detailed West Bank map for assurance. --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:21, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I think there is a seam zone map linked to the article. I'll check it and see what comes up. Generally, I don't like to use just any old map to make that determination, but one that has the seam zone area clearly marked and updated, so that it isn't WP:OR. I'll let you know in a second. Tiamut^talk 18:16, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

As far as I know Wadi Fukin is indeed in the seam zone. Zeq (talk) 18:18, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

According to this map, Waki Fukin falls within the area of "barrier enclaves" (coloured green in the mini-map on the side and which if you superimpose on the large map with village names you will find Wadi Fukin within it.) The barrier there (approved for contruction, according to the legend) will run just east of the green line, seemingly right through Wadi Fukin. Anyway, I think it's safe to conclude that it is one of the town's in the seam zone. Place the ref to the map and if someone has a problem with it, it can be discussed then. Tiamut^talk 18:32, 1 April 2008 (UTC)