Talk:Sarabande

Poorly worded and anonymous entry

Normally it is always asked when making a link to only a file from someone else his page but here the midi is just grabbed witout any context. This is against all netiquette, Paul Gabler, webadministrator of La Folia, a musical cathedral — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.57.195.153 (talk) 20:05, 13 May 2004

I removed the link. --58.233.242.63 00:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Most Famous?

I think Debussy L. 95 Pour Le Piano No II is the most famous work at this time but didn't want to spoil the article with a silly fact check. Lycurgus 06:28, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Handel's sarabande could also lay claim. Maybe the "famous" sentence should be removed as it will always be non-objective. Perhaps we could add a "Notable sarabandes" section?  HWV258.  03:16, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Another Spanish Beduin-Arab import??

That is, supposedly a very traditional Beduin rythm plus style of intonation, dance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.91.180.13 (talk) 00:48, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Catalan-language article

The Catalan-language article appears to be considerably better-structured and more comprehensive. Are there any objections to simply replacing the current article with an English translation? --Dan131m (talk) 23:47, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

It does look like a much better article, in terms of both writing and content. However, it is not very well sourced, and the only two cited references in Castellano and Calalan should be replaced by English-language sources. I find it ironic that the New Grove article is listed there under "Further reading" (Bibliografia). With those reservations, I would say that, if you are willing to take it on, go for it.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 03:16, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Never mind, it looks like the Catalan article is a word-for-word translation of the Grove Music Online article. --Dan131m (talk) 05:50, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Oops! Copyvio alert, over on ca.wikipedia?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 06:09, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Evolution of dance

AHD4 gives these definitions:

• 1. A fast, erotic dance of the 16th century of Mexico and Spain.
• 2. A stately court dance of the 17th and 18th centuries, in slow triple time.
• 3. The music for either of these dances.

It would be useful for the article to address how a fast, erotic dance was transformed into a stately ... slow court dance with the same name, if anyone can provide that information. Milkunderwood (talk) 02:58, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

According to that dictionary entry, it is equally probable that there is no relation at all between those two dances. The name similarity could be a complete coincidence. There is also the fact, not covered by that dictionary, that the fast sarabande was also found in mid-17th-century Austria (e.g., the keyboard suites of Froberger) and England (e.g., ensemble suites of Locke). So, if it is correct about the slow court dance being in place already in the 17th century, these two types of sarabande must have existed simultaneously.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 03:48, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Jerome. I had assumed that they might be related by this:

• "... dance in triple metre. The second and third beats of each measure are often tied, giving the dance a distinctive rhythm of quarter notes and eighth notes in alternation. The quarter notes are said to correspond with the dragging steps in the dance."

Milkunderwood (talk) 04:20, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

"Coincidence", taken literally, seems awfully unlikely for a word like "sarabande". Milkunderwood (talk) 04:25, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, of course, it is almost universally accepted that the dance somehow changed from faster to slower. I was merely pointing out the weakness of the source, and some problems with the chronology. To explain how this happened is another matter, but similar slowing processes happened to the Galliard and Courante, amongst others. I can't think of any examples of dances becoming faster over time, so maybe they just get old and tired.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:50, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough. It would seem that some of this ought to be at least mentioned in the article. I'm looking at Jacqueline du Pré playing the "Haendel Sonate pour violoncello et piano en sol mineur, (arrgt. J. W. Slatter)", which titles the 3rd movement as "Sarabande". Trying to figure out what this piece actually is by rummaging at length through List_of_compositions_by_George_Frideric_Handel, I finally stumble upon Oboe_concerto_No._3_(Handel). This in turn lists the 3rd movement as "Largo - A sarabande". This Sarabande article doesn't address the question of tempo, only that it was "banned in Spain in 1583 for its obscenity"; so I go to IMSLP, which doesn't list the piece. It didn't sound right to me that a sarabande might be played at Largo, so I tried looking for a definition in a dictionary. And thus my question. Milkunderwood (talk) 05:34, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Not to mention that one of du Pré's accompanists happens to be Stephen Bishop, about whom I have also left a new question at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Classical_music#Stephen_Bishop. (And another at the talkpage for his article, if anyone can find it.) Milkunderwood (talk) 05:46, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Do you need New Grove? Here's the first 2 paragraphs:

The earliest literary references to the zarabanda come from Latin America, the name first appearing in a poem by Fernando Guzmán Mexía in a manuscript from Panama dated 1539, according to B.J. Gallardo (Ensayo de una biblioteca española de libros raros y curiosos, Madrid, 1888–9, iv, 1528). A zarabanda text by Pedro de Trejo was performed in 1569 in Mexico and Diego Durán mentioned the dance in his Historia de las Indias de Nueva-España (1579). The zarabanda was banned in Spain in 1583 for its extraordinary obscenity, but literary references to it continued throughout the early 17th century in the works of such writers as Cervantes and Lope de Vega. From about 1580 to 1610 it seems to have been the most popular of the wild and energetic Spanish bailes, superseded finally by the chacona (see CHACONNE), with which it is frequently mentioned. The dance was accompanied by the guitar, castanets and possibly other percussion instruments, and by a text with refrain.

Most surviving examples of the early zarabanda occur in Italian tablatures for the Spanish guitar, beginning in 1606 with Girolamo Montesardo's Nuova inventione d'intavolatura. Ex.1 shows a reconstruction of the musical scheme that would usually have been repeated for each line of the text, alternating with and without an anacrusis. The top staff shows the melodic framework, which could be varied, and the lower staff (from one of Montesardo's guitar examples) represents major triads to be strummed, the stems showing the direction in which the hand is to move. The refrain text comes from an example in Luis de Briçeño's Metodo mui facilissimo (Paris, 1626). The I–IV–I–V harmonic progression was a constant feature of the early zarabanda and can be found also in the later guitar books of Benedetto Sanseverino (see ex.2), G.A. Colonna (1620), Fabrizio Costanzo (1627), G.P. Foscarini (1629) and Antonio Carbonchi (1640 and 1643), as well as in the guitar works of Spanish composers as late as Lucas Ruiz de Ribayaz in 1677. Although the dance seems to have been performed without a text in Italy, the musical scheme of the zarabanda was sometimes indicated for the singing of poetry (in I-Fr 2774, 2793, 2804, 2849 and 2951).

-- kosboot (talk) 19:11, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

I did a google book search and found the following:

• History of Dance
• Dance and the Music of Bach

I don't know how fast the "fast" version was, but it was originally faster at least. When it was Spain in the 1500s, it often featured castanets. The French slowed it down a lot in the 1600s. One source said the slow-down was for aesthetics and not function -- its easier to do the dance when its not so slow. Probably other reference books you could check.DavidRF (talk) 01:35, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

If I understand the question correctly, it is "how did the transformation from fast to slow come about?" I don't really see how this answers the question, but at least it is a start. Did the choreography remain the same in all cases (I doubt it, but have no information)?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 06:32, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

My own feeling is that even if we do not know how such transformation came about, the text of the article still contains no mention of meter; and I think this text as it presently stands, without any further comment or explanation, is confusing to the reader:

• "While it was banned in Spain in 1583 for its obscenity, it was frequently cited in literature of the period (for instance in works by Cervantes and Lope de Vega).

In the Baroque era the suite typically included a sarabande, as the third of four movements in the standard 18th-century form..."

This is an eye-popping non sequitur. Why might it have been banned for "obscenity"? If it was obscene, why did it become typically included in a Baroque suite? This is the problem I have with the article. There is no mention that the dance, or music, underwent a fundamental change. What did change, and what if anything remained a common element, such that the name continued to be used? And how might it have been described by either Cervantes or Lope de Vega - as "obscene"? Fast? Slow and stately? Milkunderwood (talk) 19:21, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

The entire New Grove article on Sarabande available (in Word format) with this link: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/16281615/Saraband.doc -- kosboot (talk) 20:21, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, kosboot. That ought to be helpful. I am not a musician, and I'm not about to try editing the article myself. (Above where I said "meter" I think I meant "tempo" - if there's a difference.) [See my userpage.] Milkunderwood (talk) 20:43, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

I've also found a book-length study on just the sarabande - but it's in Spanish. Anyone interested? -- kosboot (talk) 21:12, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Is it available online, or in my local library? Hablo el español un poco, y puedo leerlo bastante bien.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:31, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

The title/author are: La zarabanda: pluralidad y controversia de un género musical by Mara Lioba Juan Carvaja. -- kosboot (talk) 21:50, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Aha. Recent book (2007), which is promising. Unfortunately, my institution's music collection is not strong in Spanish-language titles, and this book is not held by the library here. It should nevertheless be worth putting into the "Further reading" section of this article, and perhaps I can see about getting it through inter-library borrowing. It looks interesting.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:25, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Quoting from the article on Triple metre:

• "Movements in triple time characterized the more adventurous approach of 17th and 18th Century music, for example the Sarabande, which originated in Latin America and appeared in Spain early in the 16th Century, became a standard movement in the suite during the baroque period. The baroque sarabande is commonly a slow triple rather than the much faster Spanish original, consistent with the courtly European interpretations of many Latin dances. The sarabande form was revived in the 20th Century by composers such as Debussy, Satie and, in a different style, Vaughan Williams (in Job) and Benjamin Britten (in Simple Symphony)"

(This information is unsourced there.) Milkunderwood (talk) 01:55, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Interesting that the last sentence is identical to one in the present article, up until earlier today, when it was expanded first to include Howells, and then Grieg. It still is unsourced.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:28, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

I noticed at least the similarity, if not the exactitude. But the preceding explanation would be very helpful to add to the Sarabande article if it can be sourced. Milkunderwood (talk) 05:35, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

It shouldn't be at all difficult to find a source for that. It's probably in the Idiot's Guide to Baroque Music or something. From the way things are shaping up, however, it will likely prove to be the sort of gross oversimplification we might expect if we let ourselves be guided by idiots. Watch this space.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:41, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to merge and no prosecutions :) LazyStarryNights (talk) 12:30, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

---

I propose that Zarabanda be merged into Sarabande. I think these pages refer to the same thing with a different name. LazyStarryNights (talk) 06:55, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

• Concur. I was unaware of the existence of that article but, now that I have looked at it, the only viable alternative to merger appears to be euthanasia. It is truly embarrassing, and whoever created it ought to be prosecuted.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 16:23, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I see some possible redundancy in euthanasia and prosecution, but I'll keep it to just the merger for now :). Do you think I can merge it right away or give some time to potential reply of others? LazyStarryNights (talk) 07:45, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
    • The guideline at WP:Merging says "After a period of time when discussion has ceased, a rough consensus to proceed with the merger may emerge. If enough time (normally one week or more) has elapsed and there has been no discussion or is unanimous consent to merge, any user may close the discussion and move forward with the merger." It has not yet been a week, though it cannot be said that this proposal has generated much heat. I presume you notified User:MuDavid, who, as the creator of this article, might be expected to have an opinion on this matter. He also made the most recent edit to it, on the same day you made the proposal to merge. If he really can't be bothered, then I would say you have got a landslide consensus. Perhaps you should wait out the full seven days, though, just to be sure there can be no misunderstanding.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:51, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
      • That makes sense Jerome. I notified User:MuDavid now and will give it at least another week. No hurries. LazyStarryNights (talk) 20:08, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
        • If you don't prosecute me, I'll accept a merger/euthanasia. I hardly even remember having created that article. I must've been under the impression that it was a different thing from the sarabande, and in those barbaric days Wikipedia was not yet sufficiently developed to enlighten me... MuDavid (talk) 16:57, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
          • You are a gentleman and a scholar, and I retract all threats of prosecution. Well said, sir!—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:29, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Confusing or vague?

I don't find it so and I'm not technically-knowledgeable about music. The comment under the description of metre is a technical point needing the attention of an expert - why didn't the editor who flagged it fix it up? Chrismorey (talk) 06:15, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Assuming this refers to the comment in the lede section: "The second and third beats of each measure are often tied, giving the dance a distinctive rhythm of alternating quarter notes and eighth notes. {{Vague|date=February 2012}}<!--Supposing "triple metre" means 3/2 or 3/4 time, this boggles the imagination.-->", I was the editor who placed that remark. I did not "fix it up" because I cannot understand what it is meant to say. As my comment points out (or was intended to point out), alternating quarter and eighth notes makes little or no sense. In 3/2 time this would mean either q-e-q-e-q-e-q-e or the reverse, e-q-e-q-e-q-e-q. The result would be de facto a 12/8 bar. In 3/4 time such alternation would result effectively in a 6/8 rhythm. If "alternating" does not necessarily mean one of each, then a 3/2 bar (for example) could mean alternating one quarter with a pair of eighths: q-e-e-q-e-e-q-e-e. Any of these patterns might be regarded as "distinctive", but unfortunately none are characteristic of the sarabande, the characteristic rhythm of which is quarter–dotted quarter–eighth in 3/4 time, starting on a downbeat. And FWIW, I do regard myself as relatively expert in these matters.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:51, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Replacement of citation

I replaced the IMDb source with the review by Thom Jurek from allmusic.com. Hopefully this fulfills the reliability criteria. smrgeog (talk) 08:01, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

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