Talk:Robert Clifford, 1st Baron Clifford

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An IP has removed genealogical information on the ground that it is the descent is a fantasy and the source not reliable. This causes a cite error at ref 8. Any views Ealdgyth? Dudley Miles (talk) 21:03, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

I. J. Sanders in English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and Descent (Oxford University Press, 1960, pp. 35-36) gives Walter (d. 1221) as the son of Walter de Clifford (d. 1190). Walter (d. 1190) was the son of Richard fitz Pons (d. c. 1138). Richard fitz Pons was the brother of Drogo fritz Pons, who was a Domesday tenant in Herefordshire. Sanders doesn't give any ancestry for Drogo and Richard. Katherine Keats-Rohan in Domesday Descendants (Boydell Press, 2002, p. 938) says Richard fitz Pons (name is given in Latin as RIcardus Filius Pontii) "was the nephew and heir of Drogo and Walter, sons of an earlier Pons. Lord of Clifford, Herefordshire. Married Matilda, daughter of Walter of Gloucester, by whom he had issue Simon, who predeceased him, Walter of Clifford, his successor c. 1130, and Bertha, wife of Elias Giffard." Keats-Rohan in Domesday People (Boydell Press, 1990 pp. 180-181) says "Drogo filius Ponz Norman, brother of Walter fitz Pons, a tenant-in-chief in Domesday Gloucester and a tenant of the Tosnys. Both he and his brother Walter were succeeded in the early twelfth century by their nephew Richard fitz Pons. They probably originated, like Durand of Gloucester, from the Tosny fief in central Normandy, dept. Eurre, though nothing is known for certain of their background." Walter's entry on pp. 455-456 has nothing else to offer. George Cockayne in Complete Peerage: Volume III: Canonteign to Cutts (St Catherine Press, 1913 pp. 290-291) says that this Richard de Clifford, first Baron de Clifford, was "s. and h. of Roger de C. (who d. v. p. 6 Nov 1282)(c) by Isabel, da. and coh. of Robert de Vipont..." and then in footnote c "He was drowned when crossing a bridge of boats near the Menai Straits. He was the son of another Roger, a feudal baron of co. Hereford, and Justice of the Forest South of Trent Aug. 1265." I'll dig more. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:28, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Douglas Richardson Magna Carta Ancestry (Genealogical Publishing Company, 2005) p. 215 says that Roger de Clifford, the Justice of the Forest (d. 1282) was the "son and heir apparent of Roger de Clifford, Knt., of Tenbury, Worcestershire by his 1st wife, Maud, widow of Hugh de Gournay." This last bit appears to trace to an article in Genealogists Magazine vol. 23 (1989-1991) by David J. H. Clifford "The Mappledurham Connections: Tracing the First Wife of Roger Clifford (1221-1285)" (pp. 260-263).

Further - Richard I of Normandy did have a son William, who was Count of Eu, but William was illegitimate and not a son of Gunnor's. Nothing I'm seeing gives William, c. Eu, a son named Pons or Pontz. (See Eleanor Searle Predatory Kinship and the Creation of Norman Power, 840-1066 (University of California Press, 1988, p. 254). Ealdgyth - Talk 21:50, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Note that I'm not seeing where the jump from Walter de Clifford, feudal baron of Clifford and Robert de Clifford, 1st Baron de Clifford comes from. Keats-Rohan says of Walter de Clifford (Domesday Descendants p. 402) that he was "son of Richard fitz Pons of Clifford, Herefordshire, and Matilda of Gloucester, he succeeded his father c. 1138. Seneschal of Roger de Tosny. Father by his wife Margaret of Walter, Richard, Lucy, wife of Hugh de Say, and Rosamund (d. c. 1176), the celebrated mistress of Henry II." - Keats-Rohan mentions a book by Hugh Clifford The House of Clifford published in 1987, presumably this work. Still not seeing the connection between Walter's line and the subject of this article - but it's probably out there, I just haven't run across it yet. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:02, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Ealdgyth. Dudley Miles (talk) 22:34, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

This article should be linked with fr:Robert de Clifford (1er baron de Clifford). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.199.176.167 (talk) 14:45, 2 July 2017 (UTC)