Talk:Republic of Ireland national football team – record in major tournaments

Trivia removed

I removed the following section:

Of the seventy national squads which have participated in the FIFA World Cup finals tournament since its inception in 1930, only two have failed to include a single based in the territory they were mandated to represent. The Republic of Ireland holds the record in this regard, having excluded domestically-based players from its squad for the 1990, 1994 and 2002 World Cups. Ivory Coast did so in 2006.

In the first place, I'm not sure it belongs here rather than on the main page; this page appears to be purely statistics. More seriously, the claim is misleading. There are also Cameroon 2002, Nigeria 1998 and 1994; and you could make a case for Wales 1958 too as Cardiff and Swansea play in the English League. Apart from Wales, these others have featured domestic players in other World Cups, which is the point I think (after some headscratching) is being made; but you're reaching deeeep levels of trivia at this point. Also, the claim is increasingly trivial; considering in the 2006 FIFA World Cup squads, even Brazil and Argentina had only 3 domestic players, there will likely be more zeroes in 2010. jnestorius^(talk) 21:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it does belong on the main page, but it seemed more pertinent here. It was misleading only in the sense that I specified national squads rather than national teams (mea culpa.) Cameroon and Nigeria have selected indigenously-based players in World Cup squads, the Republic of Ireland team has never done so. If you'd actually read the assertion as written, you'd realise that the Welsh scenario is covered ("based in the territory they were mandated to represent" - Cardiff, Swansea etc satisfy this criterion.) Overall, I think it's a very important point which could easily be overlooked by an international audience which fails to realise that the Irish team doesn't represent Irish football in the way they'd expect of a national team. Anyway, I haven't reinstated it yet, I'll have a think about it. DublinDilettante

There are two different issues at play here: (1) "Diaspora players/Irish granny/plastic Paddies" and (2) "crapness of the League of Ireland". Both merit discussion; this piece of trivia is not the best place to start. An international audience may equally fail to appreciate that in every qualifying campaign from 1934 to 1982, Ireland did select domestic players. jnestorius^(talk) 21:24, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I think this should just be a stats only article, I even think the comments are a bit out of place! As for the trivia, I think it's more a reflection of the League of Ireland than the FAI international selection Fasach Nua 22:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I disagree about comments in general. As long as the incidentals are meaningful and encylopedic and don't get in the way of the stats, I'm all in favour of them. However, I stand by my deletion of the no-League-of-Ireland players trivia (DublinDilettante: how can it be "very important" and "Trivia" at the same time?) I have added Pat Byrne in 1985, which makes the point more subtly. As to "representing Irish football in the way they'd expect of a national team": given how few domestic players there are from so many other national squads nowadays, I don't think it's misleading to leave the rest out. Using words like "failed" and "excluded" is POV. And the exact point you were making is not clearly expressed. If someone misunderstands what you write, it needs a rewrite. Saying "read it more carefully" won't do; most readers wont come to the Talk: page for help. jnestorius^(talk) 00:35, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

ELO ratings

I agree that it's bad for the ELO Ireland page to conflate IFA Ireland pre-1923 with FAI Ireland post-1923. If there's a link with all the FAI results and no others then please use that instead. Meanwhile, I've added a caveat to the ELO link. Note that it does not include any IFA results after 1923; these are all at Nthrn_Irelnd.htm instead. jnestorius^(talk) 23:27, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the fact that such an obvious mistake has been made brings in to serious question what other mistakes have been included in this source. If some-one could provide a reference used to verify that it does not include any IFA results after 1923, or indeed if any of the data is valid would be of great help. Fasach Nua 10:01, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, It tallies with Peter Byrne's book as far as 1996, except the abandoned one against England in 1995. I'm confident it's accurate after that. You shouldn't take my word for it, of course, and I take take your point about one mistake undermining all credibility; though asking for a second cite to prove the accuracy of the first cite will quickly lead to an infinite regression of cites. Epistemology's tricky, eh? Anyway, I've removed the link since it's objectively not trustworthy.I have added it to the main page as an external link, though, because it is, as far as I have found, the only online page with all the FAI's internation results, and as such is useful (with warnings). jnestorius^(talk) 00:35, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the citation needed tag, whilst a citation would be desirable, It's hardly "needed", well certainly not for such a incocequential fact as to wether or not the republic have, or have not played Wales in a friendly Fasach Nua 21:30, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

"Republic of Ireland" v "Ireland"

I've reduced "Republic of Ireland" to "Ireland" as much as possible (i.e. except near Northern Ireland). That's how the team is usually described in the Republic of Ireland. Repeating "Republic of Ireland" all the time is unwieldy. I tried "the Republic" but that read even worse. I hope the intro signal will suffice to prevent misunderstandings. jnestorius^(talk) 00:35, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the designated name of the team, recognised by UEFA and FIFA should be used! If an an alternative name is to be used, it should not be one allocated to another recognised team! Fasach Nua 17:46, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I guess objections on the grounds of bad prose will never weigh as strongly as objections on the grounds of bad politics. It reads horribly now, but so be it. Other unwieldy names have been shortened for readability, but then Brunei Darussalam national football team doesn't have Northern Brunei next door. As for Ireland being "allocated" to the IFA team: you might have half a case if the British Championship is ever revived. Further exchanges of cheap jibes are welcome at Talk:Ireland national football team (IFA) ;P jnestorius^(talk) 18:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I dont think it reads badly, but then I am used to refering to the team by their full name, the alternative might be to drop the name completely e.g.

Apart from the Republic of Ireland's loss to France, the top 4 teams drew all matches against each other, and won against the others

could become

Apart from the loss to France, the top 4 teams drew all matches against each other, and won against the others

Fasach Nua 21:54, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Good idea, thanks. Though the example given is one of the few I thought better left as is. jnestorius^(talk) 22:22, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

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