Talk:Renault 8G

Naming

I notice that user:Rlandmann has renamed this from the 8 Bd to the 8B. Is that the same 190 hp engine? I thought the 8B was a 75 hp engine, and a few years earlier? Unfortunately my only ref here (an original manual, see wikicommons) doesn't gave any name for it at all, other than the "190 Chevaux" Andy Dingley (talk) 01:41, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

According to "Les moteurs d’aviation Renault", Gerard Hartmann, page 27 (http://www.hydroretro.net/etudegh/renault.pdf) the motor installed in the Dorand AR1 was a Renault 8Gd with 190 hp. He does not list any other V8 motor with 190 hp. According to him the Renault 8B series is rated at 30 hp. Voidmasta (talk) 19:57, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Also some references linked by the Dorand_AR article (http://www.worldwar1.com/dbc/ar1and2.htm & http://greek-war-equipment.blogspot.com/2009/05/dorand-ar1.html) name the 190 hp Renault 8Gd and not the 8B as the AR1's engine. Requested move to Renault 8Gd. Voidmasta (talk) 20:32, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no move awaiting verification in references Graeme Bartlett (talk) 05:23, 13 March 2011 (UTC) Graeme Bartlett (talk) 05:23, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

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Renault 8B → Renault 8Gd — Current name of the article is not supported by its references. Evidence exists that the performance data (Bore, Stroke, etc), usage (Dorand AR1) and also Description (separate cast iron blocks for each pair of cylinders, liquid cooling, V 50°) would indicate that the engine described here is a Renault 8Gd. The Renault 8B should be an earlier V 90° air cooled motor. .--Voidmasta (talk) 21:15, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Is this one engine or several? I'm unaware of any air-cooled engines (who knows much about the Renault engines anyway?) but if' the liquid cooled engines have some commonality, the best thing might be to re-scope the article for the range of engines, not just one-by-one. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:22, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

The engine described in the article (Renault 8Gd?) has many common design features for example with the Renault 12F twelve cylinder engine series. In fact it sems like a 8 cylinder version of the 12F to me. It would be definitely better to re-scope the article for a certain range of engines. But as you named it, detailed information on Renault engines is somewhat scarce and the sources i have found seem often quite contradicting. Some research is definitely needed for this. Regarding the rename of the article i have learned that the book Munson, Kenneth - Bombers, Patrol and Reconnaissance Aircraft 1914 - 1919 (listed reference in Dorand_AR article) indeed names a 190hp Renault 8Bd (the original name of this article) engine for the AR.1 and a 200hp Renault 8Gdy engine for the AR.2. So it might be better to leave it with this name anyways until some sources clarify the naming scheme of the Renault engines. Voidmasta (talk) 13:56, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Renault 8Gb

From this table extracted from les Moteur d'Aviation Renault by Gerard Hartmann, it can be seen that this engine is not the 8B, but is in fact most likelyto be the 8Gd. The confusion probably rests with the sub-variant letter, the 8B was a low-powered air-cooled V-8 and the 8Gb, Gd etc. were liquid-cooled High powered V-8s.

• 1908 V8 à 90° type 8 A de 50 ch Breguet, Witzig, Busson 6 litres refroidi par air 15
• 1909 V8 à 90° type 8 Aa de 60 ch Biplans Champel, Sommer Régime porté à 1800 t. 30
• 1909 V8 à 90° type 8 Ab de 70 ch Biplans Sanchez-Besa, Astra Alésage porté à 96 mm 100
• 1910 V4 à 90° type 4 B de 20 ch Destiné aux monoplans 3 litres refroidi par air 5
• 1911 V8 à 90° type 8 B de 30 ch Destine aux monoplans Alésage réduit 70 mm 10
• 1911 V12 à 50° type 12 D 90 ch Biplans Breguet, M Farman Nouvel embiellage 130
• 1912 V8 à 90° type 8 C de 70 ch Biplans M Farman Nouvelles culasses 1 100 (F) 230 (GB)
• 1912 V12 à 50° type 12 Da 100 ch Victoire à Saint-Malo 1912 Carburateur à filtres 35
• 1913 V8 à 90° type 8 Ca 80 ch Appareils britanniques Alésage 105 mm 2 206 (GB)
• 1913 V12 à 50° type 12 Da 110 ch Saison des courses 1913 Moteur allégé 12
• 1913 V12 à 50° type 12 Db 120 ch MF-11, Caudron R4 Renaux à Deauville 1 800
• 1913 V8 à 90° type 8 G 140 ch Farman F 40 Moteur de 12 litres refroidi par eau 5
• 1914 V12 à 50° type 12 Dc 130 ch Biplans MF-11 et F.40, Caudron R-19 Moteur de 19 litres refroidi par air 2 900
• 1914 V8 à 90° type 8 Ga 150 ch Farman F.40 Appareils français 200
• 1915 V8 à 90° type 8 Gb 160 ch Farman F.40 Appareils britanniques 300
• 1915 V12 à 50° type 12 E 200 ch Bombardier Paul Schmitt Refroidissement à eau 60
• 1916 V8 à 90° type 8 Gc de 175 ch Farman 40 Premières versions 20
• 1916 V12 à 50° type 12 Eb 220 ch Breguet-Michelin type 5 B2 Programme M4 550
• 1916 V12 à 50° type 12 F 250 ch Breguet XIV prototype Mot. d’homologation 12
• 1917 V12 à 50° type 12 Fb 265 ch Paul Schmitt type 7 Version série du SBR * 125
• 1917 V12 à 50° type 12 Ec 235 ch Breguet-Michelin type 5 Ca2 Programme M4 550
• 1917 V12 à 50° type 12 Fc 280 ch Breguet 14 A2 Versions 1917 450
• 1917 V8 à 50° type 8 Gd 190 ch Dorand AR1, Farman 80 120
• 1917 V12 à 50° type 12 Fe 300 à 320 ch Voisin 10, Breguet 14 A2 et B2, Breguet 16 Bn2, hydravion Lévy-Besson, Potez 15, Farman 60, 61 et 70, Latécoère 14, 16 et 17 Plus grande série jamais construite chez Renault, essais turbocompresseur Rateau 5 300
• 1918 V8 à 90° type 8 Ge 200 ch Dorand AR2 Dernier V8 Renault 160
• 1918 V12 à 50° type 12 H 420 ch Breguet 17 C2 Moteur de 30,4 litres 11
• 1918 V12 à 50° type 12 Ha 450 ch Breguet 17 A2 et C2 Novembre 1918 12
• 1919 V12 à 50° type 12 Hd 480 ch Breguet 19 A2-B2, Farman F60, 61, Caudron 105 et 106 Ouverture de la ligne Paris Londres 900
• 1920 V12 à 50° type 12 He 500 ch Breguet 19 A2 et B2 450
• 1922 V12 à 50° type 12 Ka 450 ch Latécoère 12 Version suralimentée du 12 H 35
• 1923 V12 à 50° type 12 Kb 450 ch Breguet 19 B2 série 600
• 1924 V12 à 60° type 12 J 400 ch Moteur de 43,4 litres 30
• 1925 V12 à 50° type 12 Hg 550 ch Breguet 19 B2, Breguet 340, Potez 28/2 Plus puissant moteur atmosphérique 300
• 1926 V12 à 60° type 12 Ja 450 ch Breguet 18 T, Lioré et Olivier H-198, 212, Laté 25, 26 Moteur de série 360
• 1927 V12 à 50° type 12 Kd 480 ch Potez 25, protos Breguet 19 90
• 1928 V12 à 60° type 12 Jb 500 ch Breguet 280 T, Potez 25/5, Potez 29/8, Potez 35M, Lioré et Olivier 300, Laté 28 Réducteur 1/2 450
• 1928 4 cyl en ligne 4 Pa de 90 ch Caudron 191 Mot. de qualification 20
• 1928 V12 à 50° type 12 Ke 500 ch Breguet 19 série 450
• 1929 4 cyl en ligne 4 Pb 95 ch Potez 36, Farman 231, 281 et 350/351, Caudron 192, 232, 271, 272 et 275 Refroidissement par air
• 1929 V12 à 50° type 12 Kg 500 ch Potez 25 341
• 1929 9 cyl étoile type 9 C 320 ch Moteur d’essai 1
• 1930 4 cyl en ligne 4 Pci 100 ch Potez 36 et 432, Farman 356 1er moteur cyl inversés 160
• 1930 V12 à 50° type 12 Jc 550 ch Breguet 27, Potez 25 Dernier V12 à 50° 350
• 1930 7 étoile type 7 A 100 ch Farman 237 Moteur en étoile 25
• 1931 type 4 Pdi 110 ch 2000 t Hanriot 16 Cylindres inversés 120
• 1931 V12 type 12 Ncr de 2 000 ch Coupe Schneider 1931. Marché de 6 640 000 francs Compresseur mécanique à 2 étages 3
• 1931 18 Jbr 700 ch à 2050 tours Potez 25 prototype Moteur en W refroidi par eau à réducteur 5
• 1931 9 cyl étoile type 9 Ca 350 ch Lioré et Olivier 205 Moteur en étoile 25
• 1932 4 cyl type 4 Pdi de 120 ch à 2200 t Caudron C-363, C-282 à C-400 « Phalène », Potez 43, Farman 355, 380 et 400 Moteur « Bengali » 1 100
• 1933 4 cyl type 4 Pei 150 ch à 2400 t Caudron C270 « Luciole », Farman 282 et 404 Moteur « Bengali sport » 350
• 1933 9 étoile type 9 Pa 250 ch Farman 76 (école), Farman 194 et 198, Farman 307 Moteur en étoile 25
• 1934 6 cyl type 6 Q-09 de 180 ch Caudon C-630 Simoun Moteur « Bengali 6 » Compagnie Air Bleu 290
• 1935 4 cyl type 4 Pei/Pgi 100 ch Caudron C-510 « Pelican » C-600 « Aiglon » 30
• 1935 4 cyl type 4 Pei de 140 ch Caudron C-601 « Aiglon », Potez 582 90
• 1935 6 cyl type 6 Pdi 180 ch Farman 431 et 432 Moteur refroidi par air 30
• 1935 6 cyl type 6 Q de 200 ch Caudron C-445, Hanriot 23 1 310
• 1935 V12 à 60° 450 ch type 12 R Caudron C-481 V12 cylindres inversés 25
• 1937 6 cyl type 6 Q-02/03 220 ch Potez 65, NC 433 50
• 1939 V12 à 60° de 470-480 ch
• type 12 Rb Dewoitine D.720 10
• 1939 V12 à 60° de 500 ch (12 Rc) Caudron C-700, Romano R11 Monoplace de chasse 290
• 1939 4 cyl de 175 ch « Bengali » Caudron C-720 15
• 1942 V12 à 60° inversé Argus 480 ch Siebel Si 204, SIPA 10 600
• 1944 6 cyl type 6 Q-07 de 233 ch Morane-Saulnier MS-501 250
• 1945 V12 à 60° inversé type
• Snecma 12 S 500 ch NC 701, NC 702, SO 94 et SO 95, SIPA 11 et 12 Compresseur et réducteur 1 500
• 1945 4 cyl inv. type 4 Pei 140 ch Max Holste MH 52, Morane-Saulnier MS 570, SNCAN N 1200 Norécrin, Stampe SV-4, SE-2100/2300, Boisavia 601Injection directe 1 300
• 1946 6 cyl type 6 Q-10a de 240 ch Nord 1001 Pingouin et 1100 Ramier, Rey R1, SFAN 11 Dewoitine 730 1 490
• 1948 V12 à 60° inversé de 550- 580 ch type Snecma 12 S Dassault MD 311, 312 et 315, Sipa 11, NC 701 et 702 Martinet, Morane-Saulnier MS 470 Vanneau, SO 95 Corse, proto Arsenal 101 Compresseur et réducteur 1 500
• 1950 V12 à 60° inversé de 600 ch type Snecma 12 T Fouga CM100, Sipa 111, 12 et 121 1 500

Petebutt (talk) 02:24, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

50 degree V

This is a bit odd as it had already been workedout that V-8s run smoother at 90 degree V, and the 8Gd seems to be an odd man out in the 8G series, any more confirmation out there?Petebutt (talk) 02:44, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

The 50 degree V arrangement is confirmed in various sources:

• The cross section drawing of this motor (in the article) shows the 50 degree arrangement.
• http://www.archive.org/details/airplaneenginee00anglgoog confirms the 50 degree angle for water cooled Renault engines of this time on page 415.
• There is another manual of a rather similar Renault 170hp engine available at http://issuu.com/chestnuts/docs/renault_8cyl_170hp (I suspect another "8G" type) which also shows a 50 degree angle.
• Generally these odd angles are not uncommon in aeroplane engines of that time. The Liberty 12 engine has a 45 degree V arrangement (instead of 60 degree) mainly to make the engine narrower.

After some (ongoing) research of my own (User:Voidmasta/Renault, still WIP) I suspect that the 90 degree V 8G types in Hartmanns list are wrong and that the whole 8G series consisted of water cooled 50 degree V engines. After all the whole Renault 12F series of the same time were 12 Cylinder 50 degree V arrangements, and the 8G seems like a 8 cylinder sister series of the 12F. Voidmasta (talk) 23:55, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Redirects for discussion

Renault 8B and Renault 8 Bd engine, which both currently redirect to here, have been nominated at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2011 September 3#Renault 8B and Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2011 September 3#Renault 8 Gd engine respectively. Your comments are invited. Thryduulf (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2011 (UTC)