Talk:Rehabilitation trial of Joan of Arc

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Article merged: See old talk-page here

Merge

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result was merge

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Rehabilitation trial of Joan of Arc seems to be about the same event but has less content (but some different details). Samatarou (talk) 01:19, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Samatarou is correct.

The first paragraph of the Rehabilitation trial of Joan of Arc is as follows:

• "The Rehabilitation trial of Joan of Arc (also known as the Nullification trial of Joan of Arc), held in 1455-56, refers to the hearings conducted by a Papal Commission appointed by Pope Calixtus III for the purpose of examining the circumstances surrounding, and conduct of, the 1431 Trial of Joan of Arc at which she was condemned as a heretic and burned at the stake."

It thus seems unnecessary to have another article which, in fact, is misnamed, as the 1455-1456 affair was not a "retrial", but a series of "hearings" to obtain the nullification of the 1431 trial, and which resulted in the "rehabilitation" of Joan of Arc.

Both articles should be checked for any duplication, then combined under the title Rehabilitation trial of Joan of Arc.

--Frania W. (talk) 19:56, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

In that case the main Joan of Arc article will need amending at the same time because this article is really the main body of the section entitled "Retrial" in the main article. However Joan of Arc looks like it may be a protected article, there's some gumph at the top of it about "latest accepted versions". Samatarou (talk) 02:12, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

We first concentrate on making one article out of these two, then we can work on amending the section "Retrial". I understand the "gumph" ("Pending-changes protection" (PC protection) ) Help:Pending changes to say that changes brought to the article will not appear until a reviewer has checked them to make sure they are not vandalism, so any change we'd bring to the article would be reviewed before being accepted.

In my eyes, the word "retrial" is not right. When these hearings were held, Joan of Arc was dead, so she could not be "retried". It is her original trial that was on the stand, that was being reviewed; it was more the trial of Pierre Cauchon. As mentioned above, the title should be Rehabilitation trial of Joan of Arc, 1455-1456.

--Frania W. (talk) 04:16, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

• Merge. Identical topic. Student7 (talk) 21:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

• Merge. Indistinguishable material/pointless repetition. Fanx (talk) 02:49, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

• Merge. Same reasons as above. Quest4pi (talk) 20:38, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

• Merge - per reasons given last July. --Frania W. (talk) 13:51, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

OK, Merging.

Riventree (talk) 06:45, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Reworked Introduction

Reworked the introduction.

• Replaced description of Charles VII response with accessible citations from Joan of Arc article regarding Charles VII concern for Joan. The description of Charles's response is cited as Barrett, but it is an excerpt of Champion extracted from the Morosini journals in Venice. (The Morosinis recorded news and gossip related to their business. See Pernoud, 1955 p. 102–103}}
• Removed the Beaucourt reference. The cited pages are linked here: 256–258. They are doubly problematic. First, they are in French, which makes it hard for English speakers to verify; secondly the section is not focused on Paris or the role of the University of Paris. An accessible English language source should be fairly easy to find.
• Removed quotes from Pernoud. First quote is paraphrased, second quote talks about reproaching Charles, when there is no context of a reproach in the article and makes an analogy about WWII Oradour massacre, which is outside the scope of the article.
• Removed Point about Paris, Cited source, Pernoud, 1955 p. 258}} and adjacent pages make no mention of the importance of taking Paris to bring the University of Paris to justice. The University of Paris did advocate for Joan being tried (The citation of Quicherat, vol I. page 9 is a primary source in French for requesting Joan's trial). But without a verifiable source linking the capture of Paris to bringing the University of Paris to justice, this section doesn't make sense. (Actually, some of the judges in Joan's rehabilitation trial were from the University of Paris, as well!)
• Made citation to Pernoud verifiable and linkable. Wtfiv (talk) 18:26, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Swap redirects for Title?

As per discussion above, "Rehabilitation trial" seems to me to be more correct than "Retrial". Retrial implies Joan was tried a second time. But in the rehabilitation trial, Joan was not tried, rather the focus of the rehabilitation trial was to determine if the original trial had arrived at its conclusion fairly. During the process of the trial, a great deal of witness testimony on Joan's character was collected to demonstrate the bias of the original trial. I'd like to change the title of this article back to "rehabilitation trial" by swapping the article and the redirect. It seems this wasn't done back in 2012 because of issues with the Joan of Arc article being semi-protected. Any concerns? Wtfiv (talk) 18:35, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

• Support Xxanthippe (talk) 21:34, 28 March 2022 (UTC).

Requested move 18 April 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved as requested per the discussion above and below; significant edit history from the target retained at Rehabilitation of Joan of Arc. Dekimasuよ! 05:10, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

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Retrial of Joan of Arc → Rehabilitation trial of Joan of Arc – Retrial implies Joan was tried a second time. But in the rehabilitation trial, Joan was not tried, rather the focus of the rehabilitation trial was to determine if the original trial had arrived at its conclusion fairly. Manual redirect was just reverted (Manual reversion is from 8 March , after discussion initiated on 28 March.) Wtfiv (talk) 02:54, 18 April 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. 🐶 EpicPupper ^{(he/him | talk)} 08:49, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Hi Rosguill I just saw your reversion. I manually made the change after waiting for an appropriate time because the "Move" didn't work due to an already existing page (which is a redirect to this one). Would it be possible for you to make the move? Or do we just have to wait for the process to run its course again? Thanks! Wtfiv (talk) 03:01, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

If you look above, an earlier consensus was to move this page too, but there were problems with the Joan of Arc page being semi-protected. Wtfiv (talk) 03:03, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Biography has been notified of this discussion. 🐶 EpicPupper ^{(he/him | talk)} 08:50, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Women's History has been notified of this discussion. 🐶 EpicPupper ^{(he/him | talk)} 08:51, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

• Support, she was not tried, she was dead. --StellarNerd (talk) 03:46, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.