Talk:Rabindranath Tagore/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

poem - title - motherland

Is the following poem titled 'motherland'written by Tagore?

Blessed am I that I am born to this land; And that I had the luck to love her; What care I if queenly treasure is not in her store; But precious enough is for me the living wealth of her love.

The best gift of fragrance to my heart to my heart is; From her own flowers; And I know not where else shines the moon; That can flood my being with such loveliness.

yes it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.188.87.114 (talk) 04:04, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

upanayan ?

Is it a Brahmin only thing? I thought it wasn't--ppm 17:44, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Bharatveer's claim of "malicious edit"

Definition of malicious:

Intentional intimidation associated with a person’s race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin, or mental, physical, or sensory handicap that causes physical injury to another person; or by words or conduct places another person in reasonable fear of harm.

having the nature of or resulting from malice;

So, exactly what do you mean by malicious edit? What exactly is the Intentional intimidation associated with a person’s race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin, or mental, physical, or sensory handicap that causes physical injury to another person here? In the last 5 days, I notice 7 reverts by you on a very illogical basis: You want the word "Undivided India" in the first sentence, even though it is given in the proper context in the very next para. User:Saravask has clearly explained that the word is given in a proper location and context, yet you continue the reverts. I suggest you learn to refrain from personal attacks like the one I've linked here (unless if you can invent some notion of imaginary "malice" here). The thing being questioned here is context of the words, and certainly, you are illogically insisting on adding it in an out-of-context place.

In any case, please see WP:CIVIL, and learn NOT to make personal attacks in edit summaries. Thank you. --Ragib 04:24, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The meaning of "malice " as perMalice is wish to do harm: the intention or desire to cause harm or pain to somebody.

And here your malice is towards "India" as can be seen from TalkArchives.-Bharatveer 05:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Now, you are launching personal attacks. If you have any logical point, please use that rather than ad hominem attacks. Even by your definition, you can't claim malice without showing how better wording is "malicious". Note that the word "Undivided India" is present in the very next para, where the location of his birth is noted. Under your claim, why would I leave that out? I assume User:Saravask is also "malicious towarsd India", by your definition. The question here is the out-of-context placement of the word "Undivided india" in the first sentence, and Saravask is correct to point it out to you that the very next para, where his birthplace is mentioned, clearly and explicitly has the information. Correcting redundant, sloppy text is not malice under anyone but your definition.

It doesn't hurt to be logical, civil, and polite in wikipedia. I suggest again that you do so in making comments in wikipedia. The personal attack you made in the reply to my question above is deplorable. You don't really have to like me, but making unfounded comments about me (as you did above and also in edit summaries) are personal attacks, and against wikipedia's policies. See WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL for detailed guidelines about civility and politeness. Thank you. --Ragib 05:18, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I also request you to withdraw your nasty personal attack above. Thanks. --Ragib 05:19, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

It was not a Personal atack.Pointing out facts does not constitute personal attack.It is a fact that you are highly prejudiced against "India".From your earlier attempts to deny the fact that tagore was an Indian to your removal ofthe word "India" from the first paragraph clearly shows your Povs.It would be better if you try to keep your personal dislikes out of wikipedia.-Bharatveer 05:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

"Fact" to you, not to me or anyone else. Whatever you think of me, I can never change it, but making such assumptions of bad faith about another user IS a personal attack. See WP:NPA again. I have worked with a lot of Indian editors in enhancing a lot of India-related articles. So, it definitely pains me to get such personal attacks from you. (You made similar personal attacks against User:Shmitra and several other editors, so I again request you to maintain talk page etiquette and NOT make assumption of bad faith just because you "think" so). Thank you. --Ragib 05:57, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

(De-indenting.) To Bharatveer: If you love India so much, then why not focus this intense passion on getting another India-related article featured? Why waste your time with this? Why would the edits of trusted contributors like Ragib be "malicious"? Why not drop this? All three of us could be doing better things with our time, to say the least. But I admit I believe that this request is probably going nowhere. Saravask 05:52, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Saravask,I never asked for your advise in the first place.Wikipedia would be a better place if personal likes & dislikes are kept out.I have shown the previous edit histories of your "trusted" contributor.So why not keep this article the way it was like before.-Bharatveer 06:02, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

A nationalistic debate on Tagore page. Definition of Irony, with a capital "I"--ppm 06:20, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay let me butt in for a bit here.I think claims of Ragib being "hateful" or "malicious" are a bit unfair .He has raised a point with which some users may not agree, but I do not see any malice or "anti-India" prejudice. Bharatveer I request you to refrain from using such terms so liberally. There are many racist anti-India bigots and hatemongers on wikipedia and accusing innocent users like Ragib of such attitudes diminishes the credibility of allegations against the REAL anti-India bigots.

Now, having said that, I must point out that Tagore was born in British India (before India the nation or Bangladesh the nation existed), so using either "from India" or "from Bangladesh" is innaccurate. the right way to say is that he was from "Colonial India" or "British India", which describes a region. It can also be okay to say that he was from "West Bengal" (Kolkata), which describes a region. Let the reader see the wiki-article and judge for himself.Hkelkar 06:26, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Hkelkar's comment about wording, and for the record, I have agreed to this consensus in the debates over wording of this article (the debate was over categorization, and I've accepted the consensus, the arguments of other editors were logical, and therefore I accepted that). Also, for the record, the article now has the text "A [[Pirali Brahmin|Pirali]] [[Bengali Brahmin]] from Calcutta ([[Kolkata]]), [[Undivided India|India]]". I.e., it expresses the exact thing Hkelkar has suggested above (and of course, I don't have any problem with it). However, Bharatveer is adamant to move the phrase "Undivided india" to the very first sentence, even though the phrase is out of context there, and having it mentioned in the second para is a better option. Saravask and I have this opinion, yet Bharatveer claims to "see" my "malice" towards an entire nation in that!! --Ragib 06:36, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

(edit-con)While I also think Bharatveer was a bit adventurous with his comments, I have to say there was an amazing amount of Bad Faith in Sarvask's comment. Bharatveer was the only person stopping macaulayist revisionism of the Sanskrit language, and he single-handedly held off a revert warrer and an admin who from time-to-time takes the liberty to abuse his priviledges (he was censured by Blnguyen for that). Back to the Tagore article, the nobel prize site here says he lived in India. Bakaman _Bakatalk 06:38, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Bharatveer's finding of malice is not over the use of text implying Tagore was from India. See above for the actual context of "malicious edit" claimed by Bharatveer. --Ragib 06:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Let me add to my previous statement about one matter. I see that there was a debate over this before and the consensus was to keep "Undivided India". So is the present debate over whether it should belong in the first sentence or not? If that is the debate, then I fail to see the point of opposing it. Will someone clarify the situation for me below please?Hkelkar 10:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The point in question is whether we need to have the first sentence as

• "Rabindranath Tagore ([ɹobin̪d̪ɾonat̪ʰ ʈʰakuɹ] or [taˈgɔ(ɹ)] (help·info);[α] Bangla: রবীন্দ্রনাথ ঠাকুর (help·info);[β] 7 May 1861 – 7 August 1941[γ]), also known by the sobriquet Gurudev,[δ] was a Bengali poet from [[Undivided India|India]], Brahmo Samaj (syncretic Hindu monotheist) philosopher, visual artist, playwright, composer, and novelist whose works reshaped Bengali literature and music in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. "

Or as

• Rabindranath Tagore ([ɹobin̪d̪ɾonat̪ʰ ʈʰakuɹ] or [taˈgɔ(ɹ)] (help·info);[α] Bangla: রবীন্দ্রনাথ ঠাকুর (help·info);[β] 7 May 1861 – 7 August 1941[γ]), also known by the sobriquet Gurudev,[δ] was a Bengali poet, Brahmo Samaj (syncretic Hindu monotheist) philosopher, visual artist, playwright, composer, and novelist whose works reshaped Bengali literature and music in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

The argument by Saravask and me is that, "from India" is already mentioned at the start of the very next para (i.e. one sentence later) as

• A Pirali Bengali Brahmin from Calcutta (Kolkata), [[Undivided India|India]], Tagore first wrote poems at age eight ....

There is no reason to duplicate the same information/text over and over, and Saravask's argument is that, putting geographic information to where it belongs (beside birthplace name/city etc.) is enough. However, Bharatveer insists that we must duplicate the information in the first sentence too, i.e. qualify the ethnicity with the geo-political information.

Hope this puts the whole point in the context. --Ragib 10:15, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for clearing that matter up. Now, I would like to hear Bharatveer's side of the argument. Please post below. Thanks.Hkelkar 10:29, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

User-ragib:"we must duplicate the information in the first sentence too"

Now this is real funny stuff. -Bharatveer 12:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. I request that nobody get emotive on this. I am already very frustrated from staving off Islamist whack-jobs and their left-wing lovers in other articles (fortunately both Ragib and Bharatveer here seem to have honorable intentions and are not bigots of any denomination as I see it) and do not need more partisan fighting. I beg all users to arrive at a mutually acceptable conclusion.Now, Bharatveer, could you please elaborate your argument a bit below? I would like to hear your side of the story.Hkelkar 12:59, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

My point is that instead of deleting "india" from the first sentence ; The first sentence should be retained as it was & the second line may be modified by deleting the word "india" .-Bharatveer 13:26, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Response to Hkelkar: This Talk page is just one example of how a small cadre of editors can hijack the time and effort of a number of useful editors into a nitpicking exercise for which there is no end. These small number of editors spend all their time and energy on WP imagining 'anti-Indian' bias and where there is none. They typically make no useful contribution in terms of improving articles, rather they constantly engage in edit/revert wars. I admire Ragib's patience in this regard despite the number of time he had to deal with these editors. - Parthi ^{talk/contribs} 22:28, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Bharatveer, could you please explain to me what is the advantage of "from India" being in the first sentence over it being in a subsequent sentence which a reader is virtually guaranteed to read?Hkelkar 05:17, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

There is no great advantage.But that deletion was done in bad faith.-Bharatveer 05:49, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

So you mean you revert, just because you don't like me editing the article? Also, what "bad faith" you have here? You continuously attack me personally, without providing supporting arguments for your position (which you just admitted above). Perhaps you should learn to get above your personal dislike of me and come up with better arguments. Thank you. --Ragib 06:13, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I have never attacked you personally.I was just stating the fact that the inclusion of the word "indian" was discussed and finalised as can be seen from the talk page archive.YOU just utilised User:saravask's recent edit to delete the "Indian" once again from the article.It is you who should learn to Keep WP off your personal dislikes.-Bharatveer 06:25, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Your argument fails to hold water, because if that were true, I'd be going after the "Indian" in the second sentence as well, which I didn't and won't. I haven't commented on you personally, even though you have attacked me on several occasions via edit summaries and talk page comments (some I linked above). And yes, I am keeping my personal likes and dislikes away from my talk page comments here (though sometimes it becomes too hard to show such patience). Thank you. --Ragib 06:34, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

You have attacked me personally on many occasions.But there is no point in continuing this discussion anymore.-Bharatveer 06:55, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Settle down everyone

This seems to be a very minor point and hopefully consensus will be easily reached. Raise your arguments below or above. I've protected the article in the interim -- Samir धर्म 02:05, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism?

I just noticed this edit. I initially reverted him/her because I was sure that Robinson mentioned his marriage being arranged by his father. But then I noticed I had missed the phrase ten-year-old, Mrinalini Devi [sic]. Unfortunately, I don't currently have access to the Robinson book, so I'm going to assume that the anon is correct in deleting it. I'll try to check Mrinalini's age at marriage later. My apologies. Saravask 19:23, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

(In response to Saravask, above) I have the Dutta/Robinson in front of me, here is the relevant passage:

[from p.86] Within three weeks, however, with Rabindranath back in Calcutta, arrangements for his wedding were put in hand. Presumably Debendranath had asked others in Jessore to look out for a bride. Someone - a great-aunt on his late wife's side - had suggested the daughter of an employee on the Tagore estates. She was a Pirali Brahmin, about ten years old, quite thin, not good-looking and almost illiterate; her name was Bhabatarini, which was old-fashioned even in 1883. Rabindranath appears to have accepted his father's choice without meeting her. [...] The wedding took place at Jorasanko on 9 December 1883. [...] Bhabatarini stayed about a month in Jorasanko. Her name was changed to one more euphonious: Mrinalini (roughly, 'lotus-like') - suggested not by Rabindranath but by his brother Dwijendranath.

So there are two issues raised by Saravask, firstly the issue of Rabindranath's return to India being a result of his father's having a bride, and secondly how old Mrinalini was when Rabindranath married her. To the first issue, the relevant passage about Rabindranath's return in 1880 (p. 76) mentions nothing about his father having arranged a marriage, furthermore it was three and a half years before he was to be married, so I think that addition is untrue. To the second issue, Mrinalini's age, ten is in fact correct. Another issue though that I raise here is the question of her name. As the quote above says, when she was married, her name was different (Bhabatarini as opposed to Mrinalini) and also the addition of "Devi". Devi, according to Dutta/Robinson, "was then the Bengali honorific for a married woman, similar to Mrs" (p. 86). Should this passage then say "he married Bhabatarini (later Mrinalini Devi)" or something to that effect? I have no opinion here, and not much knowledge, so this is really just a question. Tagith 04:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

But on pages 86 and 87, there are strong hints that Debendranath arranged Tagore's marriage; I still agree about page 76. Feel free to add his wife's age. I don't know much about Bengali marriage customs; better that someone else answers that. Thanks. Saravask 00:00, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Bengali marriage custom (until very recently) was to have marriages arranged by parents. So it is almost absolutely certain that the marriage was arranged by Tagore's family. In fact, with a few exceptions, all of 19th and early 20th century marriages in Bengal were arranged ones. Thanks. Mrinalini's name was given after her wedding (another custom prevalent at that time). It should also be noted that Tagore family tradition was to wed women from lower-income village families from East Bengal (where the Tagores originally came from). Thanks. --Ragib 00:31, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The age seems abt right — I seem to remember eight. On Debendranath, at the very least he agreed to this marriage, I suspect anybody so much as talked without his approval in the Tagore household--ppm 18:53, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

External links

Hi. I just added a new external link, but there seems to be some notice in the code about having to submit new links to dmoz. Who put this there? Am I obliged to obey? --82.69.133.230 17:08, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I did. Yes. See WP:EL. Thanks. Saravask 19:03, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

You added a very good link. If you know of more freely available audio books, please let us know. Thanks . Saravask 23:57, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Query

these more profound and mystical experimentations allowed Tagore to be branded a "modern poet" -- I am not sure I understand the connection between modernism and mysticism. I see there are 2 reference, but the second is missing. Just wanna make sure that Dutta and Robinson does hold this view.--ppm 00:05, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I have the book. It does not say anything about "modernism and mysticism"—only that his works from that period were among his best. I can't find any cached version of the article, but I'm assuming that it did state something about it. If people want to check the article's hard copy, the full citation is listed. Thanks. Saravask 00:37, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Bengali transliteration

Should there be a Bengali transliteration on this page? If there should, it would be like this (I think): Robindrônath Ṭhakur. I think something apart from the IPA should say that it is Thakur in Bengali. --Akut 18:13, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

It's already there. Please see "Notes" section (notes β). Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Unsourced material moved here

See below; if anyone wants it moved back, please explain. Thanks.

Tagore was a great fan of Amir Khusru & Hafiz. He visited Shiraz, Iran and said "One Poet of East has come to pay homage to one of the greatest poets of east." Perhaps the influence of Hafiz went beyond the normal. The stature of Tagore was marred by charges of plagiarism against him. Many authors charged that his Gitanjali (Shopto Shindhu Dosh: Digonto") was a Bengali rendition of Dewan-e-Hafiz. Tagore faced intense questioning on plagiarism and buckled under the pressure and admitted the influence and the plagiarism. Additionally his poems seemed to have been imbellished by the Poet Yeats during translation. His critics complain that Tagore borrowed from Jaydev and got a Nobel prize.

There are also charges of bigtory against Tagore. The mistrust of the Muslims was exploited by the Hindu leaders who dwelled on the fact that the Muslims were aliens in India. Here is an excerpt of Gurudev Rabindranath Tagore's fears about the divided loyalty of Muslims published in the  'Times of India' April, 18, 1924. 

  ".... A very important factor which is making it almost impossible for 
 Hindu-Muslim unity to become an accomplished fact is that the Muslims 
 cannot confine their patriotism to any one country. I had frankly asked 
 many Muslims whether, in the event of any Mohammedan Power invading 
 India, they would stand side by side with their Hindu neighbours to 
 defend their common land. I was not satisfied with the reply I got from 
 them. I can definitely state that even such men as Mr. Muhammad Ali has 
 declared that under no circumstances it is permissible for any Mohammedan 
 whatever be his country to stand against any Mohammedan. ......." 
 Gurudev was also quoted by Dr. B.R. Ambedkar in his Pakistan, see page 
 272-273. 

Others have also criticized Tagore for the formation of modern Hindi language as a language exclusive for the Hindus of India. He was given the honorific title Bharatendu, meaning "Moon of India."

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Saravask (talk • contribs) 00:44, 14 May 2007 (UTC).

Tagore's Nationality (and connected Pirali epithet)

I do understand that some editors bristle when Tagore's nationality is described as British Indian, but that is what it legally was. Here is a typical passport, similar to the one used by Tagore, in his many travels. It clearly says British Indian passport. I know it may be more meaningful to describe him as a citizen of Bengal or of the World, but legally he was a citizen of the British Indian Empire (which consisted of British India proper (i.e. territories administered by the British, e.g. Calcutta) and the Princely States (e.g. Kashmir)). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:11, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Neither the Republic of India nor Bangladesh existed at that time, but British India so the British India nationality is justified per WP:V. --Ragib 22:44, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, legally he was British Indian. That's absolutely perfect.--Dwaipayan (talk) 04:27, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

BTW, guys, i agree with the above. Saravask 01:30, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

We could never give him freedom from British India, even after his death he is to carry this! should we also rename the article as "Sir Rabindranath Tagore" ? I wish government of OZ claims him and cools his heart.Jeroje 03:41, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

This debate is stupid (as in "unintelligent"). RNT was a Bengali - this cuts across borders divisively imposed by the British in 1906 and reaffirmed when they again split the people in 1947. Even by Bengal Presidency law he would have LEGALLY been a "Native Indian" by Act III of 1872 - but this does not imply that he would have automatically been an Indian after Partition. I do wish though that certain vandals / dubious historians stop perpetuating character assassination of RNT (and his ancestors) as Pirali just to misguidedly "preserve" the Bangladesh roots. Sroy1947 (talk) 16:04, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the view of Sroy1947 except the Pirali Brahmin part. Just click the link to go to this page and you can see a cited source to support this. In fact, though I cannot cite another source, I am pretty sure that I have read in many sources that Tagore was a Pirali Brahmin. But is it really important information to mention what kind of Brahmin he was by birth? He was a Brahmo in any case.GDibyendu (talk) 19:21, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks GD, The Pirali bit is very important. The citation is unreliable and based on scuttleutt. Banglapedia has this link which speaks of some anonymous "objective researchers". There is alot of scuttlebutt about the Thakur's being non-Kulin too. Sroy1947 (talk) 19:51, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

2 References outside Banglapedia has been provided. User:Sroy1947 has already broken 3RR in this article, and will be reported for vandalizing it by blanking references. --Ragib (talk) 06:40, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

3RR: Hi Ragib 1) I have not broken 3RR since I had placed talk on the discussion page well before (at 1RR stage) which nobody has cared to reply to while proceeding to undo my edits. 2) The anonymous ID was due to Wiki cookie problem cause by a simultaneous "edit conflict between you and me where also the first "DISPUTE TAG" was removed (overlooked) and not intentional. 3) I have also placed a DISPUTE tag for Pirali. 4) I also find it curious that DwipaniyanC is now replaced by you. 5) I am amazed that you can remove a DISPUTE tag without discussion - this is sheer vandalism. 6) Can you cite any RS Religious sources that there is any *Clan* of Brahmins called 'Pirali'. BTW, are you from Bangladesh - (since this is relevant)? If we cannot resolve this moderately, let us proceed for 3rd party evaluation of claims.Sroy1947 (talk) 06:57, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I have already reported your vandalism Here. Multiple references from Tagore's RS biography has been provided. You, on the other hand, are yet to come up with anything supporting your claim. Please stop vandalizing the article. Thanks. --Ragib (talk) 06:59, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

While proceeding with your vandalism, you overlooked this in the edit summary "Pls provide RS Religious citation from Caste Manuals not dubious literary refs". Your literary Tagore biographies are irrelevant till such time as you identify the source of this 'Pirali" epithet scuttleutt and provide detailed scholarly proof of these claims. Before I proceed to provide my own detailed, numerous and scholarly citations (which I cannot due to your citing me for 3RR), Let me ask you 3 easy questions - which you may care to answer - a) Who was Rabindranath's faher? b) Who was his father? c) Who was his father? Case closed for Kulin. Kindly reinstate the DISPUTE tag I have added since this IS allegedly a FA on a Wikipedia ie. not a Citizenpedia where (real world IDs are used). Sroy1947 (talk) 07:11, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Dear Ragib, You seem to be an "involved admin". Wikipedia is NOT a biography (which may be authorised or unauthorised). It is an ENCYCLOPEDIA - where every fact asserted is to be Factual and verifiable. I am not in the least concerned with literary biograpies, the Banglapedia ref I cited was from ENCYCLOPEDIA (not biography) clearly menioing th controvrsy - and YOU deleted IT in favour of some dubious biograpies. Sroy1947 (talk) 07:15, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Please provide a reference showing that Tagore was not a Pirali Brahmin. I'm asking this specifically, because thousands of references from various books, biographies all support Tagore's ancestry from Pirali Brahmins. If you keep asking, I can easily add these thousands of references about this. On the other hand, you have not produced anything that shows Tagore NOT to be a Pirali brahmin. And you have been busy blanking references from Tagore's biographies. This behavior is simply disruption.

For your references, here are some of my sources:

• "The Hindoos as They are: A Description of the Manners, Customs, and Inner Life of Hindoo Society in Bengal", Ṣivachandra Vasu, 1883. Page 175.
• "An Historical Sketch of the Brahmo Somaj", by Sophia Dobson Collet, 1873, Page 5.
• "The Religious and Cultural Identity of Rabindranath Tagore", SD Serebriany - Identity in Asian Literature, 1996
• "Dwarkanath Tagore, a Forgotten Pioneer: A Life", K Kripalani - 1981
• "Identity in Asian Literature", by Lisbeth Littrup, 1995, Page 94.
• "Calcutta: Society and Change 1690-1990" , by Samaren Roy , 2005 Page 88

etc. etc. etc. --Ragib (talk) 07:24, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

By the way, in the article I have provided reference from Krishna Kripalani's biography of Rabindranath Tagore. Since User:Sroy1947 seems to be unaware of who Kripalani is, here is a short introduction to him: "KRISHNA KRIPALANI (1907-1992) began his career as a teacher at Santiniketan. Prior to that he had a short spell in jail for participating in the Indian struggle for freedom. From 1933 till the death of Rabindranath Tagore in 1941, he worked in close association with the poet and edited the journal, Visva-Bharati Quarterly founded and first edited by Tagore. After a brief career in foreign service, Kripalani was made the first Secretary of the Sahitya Akademi (National Academy of Letters, India) -the post he held from 1954 to 1971. He was awarded the Padma Bhushan by the President of India and was nominated a member of the Indian Parliament (Rajya Sabha) from 1974 to 1980. He was the Chairman of National Book Trust, India from 1981 to 1986. Among his other publications are Rabindranath Tagore: A Biography; Gandhi, the Modern Mahatma; Modern India: Rammohun Roy to Rabindranath Togore; Modern Indian Literature etc."[1]. Kripalani's biography of Tagore's father also has details on the Pirali Brahmin ancestry of Tagore family. --Ragib (talk) 07:35, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

FIRSTLY a curious fact is that whenever I have a "edit conflict" with Ragib, I end up getting logged out. Here is what I was cross-posting at he time. (Ragib, This is a Golden Goose which Jack climbed the beanstalk for).

Dear Ragib, I am glad that we are NOW discussing this in a civilised manner. Being a busy admin you had obviously overlooked my prior ongoing discussion in this Talk section wih GDibeyendu, and also the IP summary I have referred. Till such time as the question of Rabindranath's ancestory is not first settled this discussion is unlikely to proceed. Let us get that out of the way before proceeding further since YOU have dragged Dwarkanath into this. Let me start with the first of my citations, (BTW: you may care to set out the actual text from those references you have cited like I am doing - so as to speed up things).

"An important event of this year was the formal appointment of Bijay Krishna Goswami as a missionary of the Samaj, and his visit at the end of the year to Baganchra, a village in the Jessore district, whence a petition had come from a number of Pirali families for the services of a Brahmo preacher. The Piralis were an excommunicated class of Brahmins ostracised from Hindu society for the violation of some caste regulations during the days of the later Mahomedan rulers. Bijay Krishna initiated twenty-three of these families into Brahmoism during this memorable visit." This is from Sivnath Shastri's "History of Brahmo Samaj" 1911,12 at pg 145. I believe that Jessore is in Bangladesh (where the Piralis exist) whereas Rabindranath is from Calcutta India where they dont. Sroy1947 (talk) 07:48, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I do not understand your first comment, and I hope you recover from any technical difficulties you are having with your browser. As for your quote from Sivanath Shastri's book, I don't see any reference to the ancestry of Tagore family here. Instead of asking me to peer into a crystal ball for this, can you please point out the relation? Pirali Brahmins are originally from Jessore, and Tagore's ancestor Panchanan Kushari left Jessore in the 17th century, to settle in Govindpur, where he was called Panchanan Tagore by the locals. (Kripalani, Tagore - A Life, page 1-3). --Ragib (talk) 07:57, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

It seems to be a systemic problem at Wiki, since I use a stable version of a widely used open source browser. You are now starting to understand the problem in the Histories of the Brahmo Samaj. Why does Shastri not whisper of Dwarakanath or Debendranath's Pirali lineage. Neither does H.C.Sarkar or any other reputed Brahmo History. Could it be because Piralism is a Hindoo canard to defame Brahmos. YOU are saying that Panchanan Kushari is RNT's ancestor - before reaching there kindly answer my 3 questions posed earlier on RNT's ancestry. You already know the answer, and I know why you will not reply.Sroy1947 (talk) 08:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I won't keep participating in this fruitless discussion. All references I have provided, from reputed biographers of Tagore, strongly support Tagore's ancestry from Pirali Brahmins. The references provided above include not only current, but also 19th century books on Brahmo Samaj. Also, there are references from scholarly works. If you have any thing to say to refute this overwhelming body of references from reliable sources, please continue, otherwise, please stop disruption. By the way, the Banglapedia article on Debendranath Tagore, which you allude to above, also supports the "Pirali Brahmin" origins of Tagore family. Thank you. --Ragib (talk) 08:39, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Well I knew you would not reply. The Brahmo History you refer to is by Sophia Dobson Collett, and actually a Unitarian History perpetuating Hindoo scuttlebutt, it is not published by any Brahmo Samaj to my knowledge. If you trackback, you will observe that I had cited by quoting the entire applicable portion from Banglapedia encyclopedia, setting out the controversy. It is noteworthy that a scholarly PRINT ENCYCLOPEDIA like Banglapedia clearly shows (and does not support) that there is a controversy ON THIS POINT. YOU are the one who TWICE removed my dispute tags AFTER I had referred to this citation. If we cannot settle 3 simple questions on RNT's ancestry - perhaps it is time to either delete the FA star on this article altogether or scrap Banglapedia as an RS. I also direct your attention to User:GDibeyendu's comment above - "How is Pirali important if RNT is a Brahmo?" Sroy1947.

(resetting indent) I won't continue the thread *because* you are not simply able to refute any of the references (part of hundreds/thousands of such sources I found), and instead you are just hand-waving here. Either show how and why we should disregard Tagore's biography from reputed biographers (like Kripalani), OR just stop this disruption. You are also misrepresenting Banglapedia, which asserts in the Dwarkanath Tagore biography that, while Tagore family sometimes claimed their origin from pure Brahmins, their ancestry has been shown by researchers to be from Pirali Brahmins. I'm quoting here: "Like most other successful Brahmin families of Bengal the Thakurs also claim their ancestry from those pure Brahmins believed to have been invited by King Adisura from Kanauj. But objective researchers assert that they belonged to a local and degraded Brahmin subcaste called Pirali Brahmin and that they had no intercourse with the superior Brahmin caste. However, the founding member of the modern Tagore family (anglicised form of Thakur) was Joyram, an amin of the 24-Parganas in 1760-62 who had four sons; one of whom was Nilmani (d 1791), who served as a serestadar in Chittagong district. He became affluent enough to leave the low lying ancestral home at Pathuriaghata built by Joyram and constructed a colourful new home at Jorasanko where Rabindranath Tagore was born and raised. Nilmani's son, Ramlochan, a rich banian and businessman had adopted Dwarkanath. The family name Thakur (lord) is said to have been conferred by the people of the fishing village Govindpur, who felt to have been privileged by being served by the Pirali Brahmins ritually.[2]. The Pirali link is supported by various biographical info, some even dating back to the 19th century. There is no controversy other than your inability to debunk any of the numerous references I cited, and unless you come up with something to refute them, I'll not reply to any irrelevant discussion/comments. Thank you. --Ragib (talk) 09:11, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I guess User:Sroy1947 could not express his main point clearly so far, which is (as per my understanding) that since Debendranath founded Brahmo Samaj in 1848 and Rabindranath was born in 1861, Rabindranath was a Brahmo by birth and not a Pirali Brahmin by birth. I think a 'compromise' or 'politically correct view' would be that 'Rabindranath was born in a Brahmo family, which was from an ancestry of erstwhile Pirali Brahmins'.GDibyendu (talk) 09:30, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Indeed I had made the article Politcally Correct, NPOV, Compromise etc. by deleting boh Pirali and Kulin (retaining only Brahmin) but Ragib cites this as vandalism and 3RR violation. Both DNT and RNT retained their Brahmin caste as Brahmos - this is the point at issue in the First Brahmo Schism. RNT had a thread cermony orgainsed by his father with Hindu Brahmin priests at age 11 affirming that he continued to be a Brahmin while remaining a Brahmo religionist. Sroy1947 (talk) 09:46, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Dear Ragib. The way you are behaving is most unsporting. I am systematically challenging the references you are citing in support of your assertion. This is not 3rd Reich History where Goebbelsian Untruths become Truth merely because a million people parrot them. Since you know so much and have thousands of references Please answer 3 questions on RNT without which we cannot proceed.

1) WHO was Rabindranath's father. Please name him.

2) WHO was the father of the man named above.

3) Who was the father of the next man named above.

Why is such a small exam difficult for you?

Now let me speak bring out the bias concerning Ms. S.D.Collet and her "brief sketch of Brahmo History, 1873" by quoting from the preface to S.N.Sastris' Brahmo History afiresaid and referring also to H.C.Sarkar's preface to S.D.Collet's "Life and Letters of R.M.Roy," 1914)

"PREFACE I commenced writing this book during my residence in England in the year 1888, at the urgent request of the late Miss S. D. Collet, the well-known historian of the Rrahmo Samaj. Under some peculiar circumstances, which need not be related here, she insisted upon my taking up this work and placed all her records at my disposal. ... I remained in this state of hesitancy for years, when there came another impulse from another direction. The dying request of my esteemed friend, Mr. A. M. Bose, in the words "do not fail to record our version of the story," finally impelled me to resume the narrative. After his departure from this world, I devoted much time to self-examination and prayer before finally making up my mind to resume it with the thought that, 'fact is fact, and history is history, let me record the facts and leave the readers to form their judgments."

Neither Historians like Sastri nor Sarkar refer to the Pirali Scuttlebutt about Tagores.

I do NOT have to DISPROVE 'Pirali' YOU have to PROVE it !!!! Starting from where it originates - the primary source - not secondary repititions.Sroy1947 (talk) 09:38, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

True, you do not have to prove anything. But at the same time, when you claim something is incorrect, and ample references are provided against your claim, it is *YOUR* duty to prove the veracity of your claim.

If you are unable to get the information from the references I mentioned above, I can't help you. You are claiming that the Collet book is not correct. Would you also claim this about the other references listed above? Also, "Journal of the Asiatic Society of Bengal", vol XXXVI, No I-III, 1867, page 132? That's also biased, right :)? And Kripalani's biography of Tagore and his father? Biased, right? :D. Cool!! --Ragib (talk) 09:53, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Dear Ragib, please understand that I have as much respect for you as I do for truth and fact. You are placed in the position of defending the indefensible. Since I am unsure what exactly you are referring to in the books you are citing, kindly do us the courtesy of extracting them or linking to them. Concerning Ms. Collet's "book" (it is actually a brief tract) H.C.Sarkar has dealt this this very well in his preface to her work on R.M.Roy and spelt out where her Brahmo "romantic" sympathies lay at the time - 1873. What is the primary source of all these Pirali canards? The secretarial affiliations of Asiatic Society of Bengal was always to the opposing Brahmo camp - Jorasankoe Tagores had stormed out in 1866. Insofar as K.Kripalani is concerned I do not possess the book you are referring to. As far as my position goes, the onus of proof on your (Pirali asseting) side at the threshold is

A) Show that "Pirali Brahmin" is a validl widely accepted grouping of Brahmins. You must cite (by quoting from) impeccable ancient RS Religious sources for this, since it is a religious dispute.

B) Inform me who RNT's paternal great-grandfather is.

C) Show that Tagores were out of Brahmanism due to Pirali epithet and not due to Brahmoism Sroy1947 (talk) 10:21, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I do not have the responsibility of shipping a copy of the Kripalani book to you. Sorry about that. You can find the book in a library near you. I don't really care about who was against whom in 1870s, that is also irrelevant here. I'm listing my position here:

• Tagore family's ancestry from a group of Brahmins called "Pirali Brahmin" is well documented. See above for details.
• The documentation includes multiple books, biographies, scholarly publications etc.
• In absence of any thing showing how these books, biographies by notable biographers, scholarly publications, 19th century historical books, etc etc are false, incorrect, etc, we have to stick to WP:V in stating the facts.

And now, to answer your question: A). No need to show religious explanation. That the ancestors of Tagore family were called "Pirali Brahmin" is documented, and verifiable. B). Why is this relevant? C). Why is this relevant? Rabindranath Tagore's religion is not questioned here. Rather his family's ancestry from Pirali Brahmin has been mentioned and cited from multiple, independent, reliable sources.

So, once your block for 3rr block is lifted, I suggest you either come up with a way to refute Asiatic Society, Krishna Kripalani's biography of Rabindranath Tagore / Debendranath Tagore, various scholarly research papers, books, Bishwa Bharati publications etc; OR stop disrupting the page with unsupported statements. Thank you. --Ragib (talk) 11:40, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

On the one hand you talk about RNT's ancestors being Pirali, and then you cannot even name his paternal great-grand-father? You are the one saying he is Pirali- YOU must prove it from a RS. If I allege you are a wife-beater who is required to prove it- I that You are a wife Beater or YOU that you are not? Can you establish which is the 1st published statement that Tagore's are Pirali - as opposed to alleged Piralis !!! Of course Tagore's religion is questioned in context of Pirali, is he Brahmo or Hindu? If he is Brahmo (and he was President of Adi Brahmo Samaj) where is the issue of Pirali or his Brahmin caste and how is this relevant to this article? What proof do you have that he was Hindu? Sroy1947 (talk) 12:45, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Dear All. There is controversy on this point no? Some of Tagore's ancestors (femle side) were doubtless Pirali. But Tagore's family per se were not Pirali but Highest caste Rarhi Banerji (1 of 4) Shandilya Brahmans from 8th Cent AD much before 10h /11 Cent AD Balal Sain inviting more Brahmins from Kannauj. . The confusion is arriving because Tagore family used to marry their boys to illiterate uneducated young girls (but virtuous girls) from poor Brahmin familys of the Pir-Ali Brahmins - a type of Brahmins setled around Jessore in now Bangladesh who were ostracized for smelling beef cooked by Moslems. Once this is understood, you will understand that you are both right - the womenfolk of Thakurbari were Pirali, the men were not. This is sanctioned as pratilome / anulome kind marriage. Of course this custom began dying out by 1890's and many of Ravindranath's brothers did not marry Pirali girls. Ravindranath was the problem because he was leading a fast almost Derozian life and no Brahmin family would have him, causing his poor father to go back to Pirali for him. This caused him to be jelaous / love of his Brothers and their wifes. I hope this makes sense. 212.227.114.82 (talk) 12:31, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

You have some flaws. When 2 Brahmans marry it is neither anuloma or pratiloma. You are right when you say that many of DN Tagore's other sons had non Pirali brides. This is also there in Sivnath Sastri's Histry book on Brahmo Samaj 1st ed. at P.127 "... late Babu Haradev Chatterji father in law of two of Debendranath's sons ...". Chatterji is one of the 4 highest castes of Bengali Brahmins and definitely not Pirali. The difficulty in arranging Rabindranath's marriage was his associating with beef eaters and his loose early life. Both Dwarakanath and Ram Mohan Roy had the same problem and used to employ 2 sets of cooks (Muslim and Hindu) which upset all the womenfolk in their houses.

Unfortunately, the references does not support this comment. Especially, Krishna Kripalani's detailed biography of Tagore has several pages devoted to Tagore family's Pirali ancestry, and that is along the male line. Also see Journal of Asiatic Society quoted above. --Ragib (talk) 12:36, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually there are many references for what IP 212.227.114.82 has written. For example "Rabindranath Tagore: A Centenary Volume" in 532 pages published by Sahitya Akademi of India Govt in 1992 ISBN:8172013329 at page 448 the entire Genealogy is given of Tagore family which is ditto what IP has written. 69.50.160.154 (talk) 13:02, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

No that is not reference I am referring. I am discussing from Bangladesh "research' against educated and modern Hindu and Brahmo women, such as publications of Ghulam Murshid of Rajshahi Univ Bangladesh : Doctoral Thesis "Reluctant Debutante : Response of Bengali Women to Modernisation" 1983 where such lies are again and again retold originating via RSS P.K.Mukhpadyaya attributed to Janadanandini Debi (married to Satyendranath Tagore) etc. saying Tagore family is Pirali and they bought Brahmin Ghar Jamai husbands for their Pirali daughters etc. There is a deep background to these motivated articles which will come out and expose the pseudo-nationalists on both sides of border who need to abuse Rabindranath and his family for justify their existing. 212.227.114.82 (talk) 17:31, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Dear Mr.Ragib. Samaren Roy p.88- what exactly does it say in the 6th or so line from the bottom of the page? Why are we embarassed to quote exactly from the book. Does it use the word "tainted" or suchlike in the context of the WOMEN of A Tagore family? Does it specifically refer to R.N.T's branch of Tagore family? Is it in the context of RNT's Piralism? Does it not go on to say something to the effect that they were in fact one of the 4 highest classes of Brahmins - in the same sentence? Have you ever bothered to personally read what Krishna Kripalani wrote about Dwarkanath Tagore in the book you cited, beginning with the title of the chapter "As legends go" and at pg.6 onwards the words "supposed stigma", "tale of legend" "the tale is worth telling whatever its historical merit", "it is obvious that (n)one of the legends cited above can be deemed very credible", "relied on hearsay for their "facts"". If you have no respect for Encyclopedia kindly respect those who do. I shall demolish each and every one of your citations except Asiatic Society which I cannot locate due to it's age - Please quote exactly from it. This is NOT a personal attack, just an appeal to be true to facts/ sources. Sroy1947 (talk) 12:35, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Sarbajit, there is another book by the same Samaren Roy where this aspect (Tagore's Pirali caste) is explored in great detail - unlike his 300 years of Calcutta book p.88. This is "Bengalees-Glimpses of History and Culture" published 1999 ISBN:8170239818. At page 55 " ... though the evidence was wholly circumstantial. The allegation was a means to secure the social boycott of the Tagores who worked for a Muslim potentate. ... on such a flimsy allegation". There is also the 1896 source which refutes all these allegations - J.N.Bhattacharya (1896, pg.123) who identifies the "leading Brahmin personage who formed a party for degrading the Tagores" ... "but the Tagores were not to be denied but continued to grew in prosperity, fame and numbers". Bikash 69.50.160.154 (talk) 17:38, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Sroy1947, explain why Ragib's sources and Dutta/Robinson are wrong. This time use clear, simple, concise language. If you don't do it by Friday, I'll revert your "dispute" tag and related edits. I won't be able to reply before then. Take care. Saravask (talk) 20:22, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

(resetting indent)Dear Saravask. My issues are as follows:-

1) I have at least 50 biographies (eminently citeable ones) for RNT and his family-the vast majority of these are old books at least 50 years+. Of these only about 10 refer to the Pirali issue. Not a single standard Brahmo Historian raises this issue since we know the truth about RNTs ancestory. To my mind it is a non-issue for RNT's life - except to the extent RNT chose to make it an issue. As a result there is collateral damage caused to other members of the vast Tagore family caused by this baseless allegation - namely that the Tagore family is Pirali Brahmin and that other caste Brahmin families would not marry them, ostracised them etc. etc.. In fact there is no such Hindu caste sub-division as "Pirali Brahmin" at all, these are all figments of imagination of Western "scholars" and "orientalists".

2) I myself am not clear what Ragib's sources say exactly - since unlike me (and some others now) he does not quote from his sources. He cited 5 sources. Dutta/Robinson was not one of them. I have impugned the 4 I could locate/ trackdown. I have quoted copiously from his cited sources to show that the Pirali epithet is just an "allegation", it was never established, it is shrouded in legend, it is motivated by jealously and Brahmoism. It is irrelevant, and in any case if RNT is a Brahmo then he can not have caste. Ragib cited Samaren Roy's p.88 and he challenged me on it. I am not sure if he is citing this from his own knowledge or from secondary sources. If it is primary, let him quote that entire paragraph from Samaren Ray's book which HE is relying on- or else I shall. As far as I know, Roy's citation says that in actuality the Tagores were high caste Brahmins one of the 4 and Pirali is only a "taint" (ie. "to sully someone's reputation").

3) This entire Pirali issue is a canard. It has no basis. Whoever is alleging it must prove it. Citing 1000 sources (all contaminated by 1 or 2 sourcesand repeating the same lies) is not acceptable. Since I can also cite an equal number against it.

4) Other editors on this are also concerned that some acceptable compromise be worked out.

5) I have said this before and I shall say this again, if anyone imputes that RNT's ancestors are Pirali Brahmin, let him name those ancestors. When not a single editor here is prepared to clearly answer who RNT's paternal great grand father is (as I easily can), how can they go back 10 generations to claim that Mr.X (unrelated) was a Pirali ?

6) Does Ragib or anyone else here dispute the p.448 citation from the Govt of India Tagore centenary book where the Tagore Genealogy is clearly set out and the Pirali epithet rejected.

7) Lastly concerning Dutta/Robinson, I have also browsed the connected articles on RNT's life. 95%of the citations there are from Dutta/Robinson (and designed to promote their book). 50% of it IMO is complete rubbish. Shall I start there with my own eminently RS biographies of RNT? Sroy1947 (talk) 08:54, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Since you specifically mention me above, I'll reply with exact quotes about the "Pirali" citation. I have several of Tagore's biographies with me as well ... (including the Kripalani bio). I'll reply in about 1 or 2 days as I'm busy at this moment. But I promise you I will provide quotations from original sources. --Ragib (talk) 08:59, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I have one question on this topic. From the Banglapedia link mentioned by User:Ragib above, I see that there is a line: "Nilmani's son, Ramlochan, a rich banian and businessman had adopted Dwarkanath." My question is was that adoption from outside family relatives? If Dwarakanath had no blood relationship with Ramlochan, then which family is claimed to be a Pirali Brahmin family? Dwarakanath's original family or Ramlochan's family? Thanks. GDibyendu (talk) 10:54, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

In Thakurbarir Katha, Hiranmay Bandopadhyay has given details about the Tagore family being Pirali Brahmins. It is a long story and may be, I will add it subsequently to the Pirali Brahmin page. Jagannath Kushari, some eight generations prior to Dwarkanath Tagore, was marked a Pirali when he married into one such family towards the end of the 16th century. Jagannath Kushari’s great grandson Panchanan came and settled in Gobindapur in early 18th century and became Thakur or Tagore. (Published by Sishu Sahitya Sanasad).

Normally, a family joining the Brahmo Samaj, has no utility of the caste history, as Brahmo Samaj generally does not follow the caste system. However, the Tagore family and Adi Brahmo Samaj were different.

“Our being ostracised by the Hindu society provided us with a certain freedom in absorbing western influences, and at the same time the Adi Brahmo Samaj was a branch of Hindu society in all respects except the practice of idolatry. Maharshi always expressed a hearty desire to establish this, and as such all the rituals and customs of Hindu society were followed in his family, and that environment prevailed at least till he was alive, ” wrote Indira Devi Choudhurani (Smritisamput Vol I (1997/2000), in Bengali, Rabindra Bhaban, Viswa Bharati, p. 19).

She further writes, “In those days the practice of having Gharjamai was in vogue in our family, mainly because we were Piralis and then became Brahmos; therefore, there was no possibility of somebody from a good Hindu family marrying into our family… With Hindu Samaj on one side, and Sadharan Brahmo Samaj on the other, shunned by both, we from the Adi Brahmo Samaj became secluded outside both, and when it became almost impossible to get our children married, the system of marriages amongst relatives was started. “ (p 18-19).

I do not know if this leads to resolution of the conflict on Piralis. - P.K.Niyogi (talk) 06:59, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Dear Mr Niyogi. Thanks for shedding more light on this. for eg that the Pirali tag comes about by marriages of Tagores INTO the Piralis of Bangladesh by marrying their womenfolk. This is consistent with many standard references. As such this does not make all the Tagores "Pirali". Being a scholar of Bengal history, I am sure that you also know that Jaganath Kushari was not related to the Tagore branch to which RNT is descended from - that is the other branch of Patthurighatta Tagores (which may be considered Pirali) - not the Jorasanko branch of RNT. I do not know why Indira Devi Choudhrani's fictions are relevant to this discussion. Many daughters of good Brahmin families did marry Devendranath's other sons - but not SNT and RNT etc for certain reasons which equally are the stuff of legend but deserve to be brought out by citation of scholarly sources. IDC's allegations are based on RNT's own deluded self propaganda which are not shared by other Tagores and which he communicated to these 2 children when he joined them in England. Certainly SNT and RNT can be considered as married to Pirali - allegedly engendering marriage problems for their progeny (like IDC) , but not for their brothers. :-) On a related note, there is RNT's letter of 5 Sep. 1914 ("Selected letters of RNT", p.153) to Pramathanath Chaudhuri (who was definitely not Pirali - despite getting married to IDC) where the great poet writes " .. How fussy is she about Hindu practices? You know what infidels we are - of course your people are the same - but in a Calcutta family house such as yours one can, if need be, set aside a corner where Great Manu's injunctions are obeyed: not so in our Surul house.". On another subtle point - the Brahmo Samaj may have done away with caste, but not the Brahmo religion. The timing of IDC's statement is important and needs to be clarified - because subsequently (after Keshab Chandra Sen's expulsion from Brahmoism) there were numerous inter-marriages between Adi Brahmos and Sadharanites. Sroy1947 (talk) 13:34, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

dear frends. The ghor jamai systems is association with the Pathuriaghata branch of the Tagore family. cv. Dakshinaranjan Mukherjee whose father was ghor jamai for their house. Ghor jamai systeme is in Kulin Brahmun. So this extends proof that Jorasanko Tagore are a Kulins noit the Pir-Ali. On close readings of Malvika Karlekars Reflections on Kulin polygamy pagina 9 we read that Pachannan Thakur in reality is a deity to be worshipped to whom ghor jamai is dedicated. 212.227.114.82 (talk) 18:09, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Dear freinds. additionial reserch. all the daughtrs of devendranath thakur were married to highest caste Brahmum familis. By example. Soudamini Thakur marries Saradapersaud Ganguly (Gangupadyahay). Sukumari Thakur marries Hemendranath Mukkerji (Mukhopadhyaya). Saratkumari marroes Jadu Kamal Mukkerji (Mukopadhyaya) etc.These are all Rarhi Brahmun caste names from highest Brahmum castes. Why are so many contradiciones about this familes 212.227.114.82 (talk) 02:13, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Something should be done to resolve this standoff. Lets just recap.

1. This Pirali business is of no relevace to this article except to show that Rabindranath used it to project himself as an outsider.
2. This Pirali tag is relevant only to the extent of showing that unlike other Tagores (who had beautiful / fair / rich Rarhi/Barendra Brahmin brides), RNT was stuck with a dark, ugly, poor Pirali bride - thereby causing his literary effusion.
3. That RNT's ego led him to destroy all Dwarkanath's papers out of spite and greed. (Source for all the above : Krishna Kriplani) Sroy1947 (talk) 17:47, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Noble Prize icon on top of infobox?

Jrs044 recently added this. (He is also adding this in other articles). Is this realy necessary especialy at such a prominent location? I think it looks ugly as it sharply contrasts the b/w color combination of the image and the infobox. Can we add one more line in infobox on "Awards" where we can move this icon and add the the year of award (1913)?-Arman Aziz 01:23, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it's dinky and have just removed it. I didn't notice/check his edit. Thanks for pointing it out. Saravask 01:29, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Its back. -- Fullstop (talk) 18:49, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I also noted. I didn't immediately remove it because when I explored articles on a few other Nobel laureates, I consistently found the icon at infobox-header. I guess, in this case, need for consistency overrules aesthetics. Feel free to express your opinion if you feel otherwise. Arman ^(Talk) 01:37, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I removed the whole infobox clusterfuck, including the "fun" Nobel logo. Seemed to be creating too many problems/arguments/clutter. I agree with the above. Let's focus on the man, please. Saravask (talk) 05:29, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) Given the exaggerated focus on data in the infobox, this is probably a smart move. The removal might even encourage some people to actually read ;) -- Fullstop (talk) 04:26, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I could not fully support this move. If someone would take out the nobel icon and/or the signature I would remain indifferent. But removing the entire infobox seems against generally accepted standard of Wikipedia. One of the reason of Wikipedia's popularity is its ease of use, and an infobox in an article helps increase that ease. Other comparable articles like William Shakespeare, Mohandas Gandhi etc. also have infoboxes; so what's so special about this article? Please note many people who would come to this page, may be totally unfamiliar with the subject matter and may have seen the name Tagore for the first time and are curious to know who he was. An infobox may seem redundant to educated people from Indian-subcontinent, but it could be very helpful for such readers from western background. Arman ^(Talk) 05:01, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Bibliography

the bengali wording for the novel Gora is written in the article with a "dha a shunya rh" it should be "ba a shunya r". someone change this please. Jeroje 03:23, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

is there anyone who takes care of this article ? the spelling mistake I pointed above is serious. I dont have a bengali font otherwise I would correct it myself.--Jeroje 13:21, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Done. Btw, Gora being called Goda would be ironic indeed!--ppm 14:12, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

(Display of) Timeline is busted

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Sorry for not going ahead and fixing it... I have no idea how <timeline> works. -- Fullstop 23:56, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

its working again. -- Fullstop (talk) 18:48, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Wikisource Collaboration of the Week

The works of Tagore have been selected as the Wikisource Collaboration of the Week. Please participate by adding more complete works to s:Author:Rabindranath Tagore. Some sources for texts are at s:Author talk:Rabindranath Tagore. Thank you.--Pharos 23:37, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Schooling

Why does nobody seem to know where Tagore went to school? Surely it's in biographies (I don't have on to hand right now). There can't be many public schools in Brighton to choose between, and surely any school would be only too happy to claim Tagore as an old boy.--Oxonian2006 (talk) 22:49, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's not in Dutta and Robinson, which is the best English-language Tagore bio: "After spending a short time in a school in Brighton and Christmas with his family ..." Maybe the Bangla-language books have more to say. Saravask (talk) 23:57, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Shriniketan

In the 2nd paragraph under Santiniketan section, it says: ...(which Tagore later renamed Shriniketan—"Abode of Peace")...

Shriniketan means "Abode of Wealth", isn't it? Santiniketan means "Abode of Peace". —Preceding unsigned comment added by GDibyendu (talk • contribs) 16:00, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I fixed it. Thanks for pointing it out. Saravask (talk) 04:05, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

misspelled name in the article

Martinprague1 (talk) 16:17, 2 March 2008 (UTC) This is to request those with editing authority to replace "Czech indologist Vincent Slesny" with correct " Czech indologist Vincenc Lesný". Thanks.

Dwaipayanc fixed it [3]. I unprotected this so that you can fix the mistakes. Thanks. Saravask (talk) 00:33, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

The FruitSeller From Kabul

This is what the article says about the story written by Tagore

In "The Fruitseller from Kabul", Tagore speaks in first person as town-dweller and novelist who chances upon the Afghani seller. He attempts to distil the sense of longing felt by those long trapped in the mundane and hardscrabble confines of Indian urban life, giving play to dreams of a different existence in the distant and wild mountains: "There were autumn mornings, the time of year when kings of old went forth to conquest; and I, never stirring from my little corner in Calcutta, would let my mind wander over the whole world. At the very name of another country, my heart would go out to it ... I would fall to weaving a network of dreams: the mountains, the glens, the forest .... "

The trouble with this is.....that the story is NOT about this at all. Infact, this is just one of those passages that an author puts at some places, in order to reveal something about his character, or the like. The fruitseller from Kabul is the story about the relationship between a father and a daughter, and how that is projected in many different forms..........

Well, you can read the story here. http://www.angelfire.com/ny4/rubel/kabuliwala.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Charmed4ever (talk • contribs) 01:30, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Completely agree with this point. The quoted lines ("There were autumn ... the forest ....") are not explaining the main point conveyed in the story. I would suggest removing the quoted lines and adding father-daughter relationship instead. Whosoever changes this, please correct the spelling of 'distil' also.GDibyendu (talk) 08:22, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Asia's first vs India's first

By the list of Nobel laureates by country Tagore is the first Asian to get the Nobel prize.Jeroje (talk) 18:12, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary, Nobel laureates by country appears to confirm that Tagore was not even the first Indian to get a Nobel prize - the honor goes to Ronald Ross who won the prize in 1902. Technically neither Ronald nor Tagore were Indian citizens ever, they were both citizens of British India. Arman ^(Talk) 01:43, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Pages of Ronald Ross and Rudyard Kipling claim them to be British, not British Indian. They were both born in India and worked in India. But they left India much before they got Nobel Prize. Kipling left India in 1889 and Ross in 1899. Nobel laureates by country page shows Kipling and Ross under India section also, as they were born in India. GDibyendu (talk) 04:25, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Pls see the nationality cited in the ref. _Bharatveer (talk) 07:26, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Did anybody say that he is not Indian? '1st Among Asians' is a deeper info that '1st Among Indians'. Simply because, India is a proper subset of Asia. Are you somehow not getting the point, Bharatveer? GDibyendu (talk) 08:00, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Pls read the talk archives of this article, then maybe you will get some idea why I made that change.-Regards-Bharatveer (talk) 08:20, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Bharatveer, please answer the question instead of dodging it. Also, do remember the arbitration ruling currently in effect against you: Bharatveer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log) is subject to a comprehensive editing restriction for one year. He is limited to one revert per page per week (excepting obvious vandalism), and is required to discuss any content reversions on the page's talk page. --Ragib (talk) 08:28, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, Tagore was from British India, which as an entity is quite different from the Republic of India, so "Indian" does not carry the same meaning now as it did at the time of Tagore. --Ragib (talk) 08:30, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Please tell me the reason why this reference is being removed -http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/1913/ .See that India is clearly mentioned. .-Bharatveer (talk) 08:43, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about the removal of the ref. But you yourself clearly know "India" in 1913 referred to British India and NOT "Republic of India" (post 1947). Besides, Ross and Kipling won the nobel prize before Tagore. --Ragib (talk) 08:47, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

No where except WP , I can see this "British India" nonsense. But I understand why you and your friends like this usage. And I dont see any purpose in continuing this discussion here. -Bharatveer (talk) 06:37, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest removing the current ref next to Nobel Laureate (currently reference #1) as it does not add any new value to this page. And there was no ref for this piece of info a few days back. GDibyendu (talk) 09:06, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the statement some are making that Tagore wasn't Indian is just plain wrong. I also am not sure that his "nationality" is "british indian". maybe "citizenship". Both "Nationality" and "Indian" have deep meanings beyond and above the political situation in India at a certain time. --ppm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.169.36.49 (talk) 03:31, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

There is no "Indian" ethnicity. Tagore was a Bengali by ethnicity. --Ragib (talk) 04:30, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Anyone reading the article these days?

Or just checking the diffs? (in the 2nd case, what are your views on this change?)

Fixed this factual error. He received knighthood in 1915. Renounced in 1919. References are many, that's why did not cite. For example, this one. And a see also article: List of people who have declined a British honour. GDibyendu (talk) 16:35, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I am finding some parts of the article are now pretty unreadable: like last two sentences of Early Life section.

There was some grammatical error in a sentence. Fixed it. GDibyendu (talk) 16:35, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, there are a lot of details, which can easily distract the readers. Such details can be avoided by say, using internal links and by removing details when such a link is available. For example 'Calcutta (now Kolkata, India)' can easily be changed to Calcutta. Also, for example, details on 'upanayan' is not needed in this article, particularly beacuse it is an internal link already. GDibyendu (talk) 14:09, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

In Shantiniketan section, in this part of the 1st sentence "...an ashram, which would grow to include a marble-floored prayer hall ("The Mandir")", the link for Mandir is leading to wikipage on Hindu Temple, which I doubt what the prayer hall in the Ashram is. My suggestion is to remove the Interlink for Mandir or to remove ("The Mandir"), unless it is really important to mention.GDibyendu (talk) 16:35, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi! Yes, it's true the article needs constant monitoring besides a revamp, or at least, some good thorough readings and copyedit. The main author of teh article, Saravask (talk · contribs) has become very infrequent. Please go ahead with the changes you deem necessary. And,even better, discuss that in the talk page, just as you are doing. Cheers!!--Dwaipayan (talk) 16:48, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

About Jana Gana Mana. I have deleted Rabindrasangeet from association with this work. It is open to Brahmos to respectfully not stand up when this song is played as National Anthem of India. Sroy1947 (talk) 18:59, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with this 'compromising edit' for this reason that Jana Gana Mana was not generally considered a "Rabindrasangeet", though it is an abridged version (1st and last stanza, right?) of Tagore's poem Bharat Bhagyabidhata (which had 5 stanzas, as far as I remember). Whereas, I am also aware that it was considered as Brahmosangeet and was sung in Brahmo Meetings (sabha), long before it was chosen as National Anthem of India. GDibyendu (talk) 19:15, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes :-) Sroy1947 (talk) 19:51, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Jeanenawhitney added a few links today for some works of Tagore in Bibliographys section (using a tool), I have removed link for Raja as it leads to a general page of Raja, even disambiguation page does not have any info on the work Raja. And its an English word anyway: so removed this unnecessary link. Added link for Gitanjali, even though another link for the same exists in the template. Probably thats OK as it might be the most well-known work of Tagore for general English Readers. Removed detail of upanayan as the wikipage and interlink already exist. (similarly, there was no explanation for brahmacharya, as interlink was there) GDibyendu (talk) 14:38, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Lead section contains this: "he published his first substantial poetry under the pseudonym Bhanushingho ("Sun Lion")". Early Life section states:"As a joke, he maintained that these were the lost works of Bhānusiṃha, a newly discovered 17th-century Vaiṣṇava poet". As per my knowledge, Bhanushingho and Bhānusiṃha are same, so spellings should be same to avoid confustion. Any views? GDibyendu (talk) 14:44, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

What does this sentence mean:"Tagore’s "Sadhana" period, comprising the four years from 1891 to 1895, was named for one of Tagore’s magazines"? The sentence seems to be a bit confusing. Does it mean to say 'named after'? Was Tagore publisher of a magazine named Sadhana? Was that magazine named after 'Sadhana' period or is it the other way? Thanks.GDibyendu (talk) 18:09, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Dispute tag

I've removed the dispute tag. The claim is sourced twice already. Here is a third . There needs to be more evidence that these sources are wrong. You shouldn't mar a FA with a tag like this just because one editor thinks they heard something to the contrary but can't furnish a good cite to that effect. Professor marginalia (talk) 22:47, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Did Rabindranath Tagore foresee Wikipedia?

The following lines seem especially appropriate to the Wikipedia project. They are from Gitanjali 35 (Song Offerings) , published in 1912.

Rabindranath Tagore (1861-1941) Gitanjali 35 (Song Offerings) , published 1912 Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high; Where knowledge is free; Where the world has not been broken up into fragments by narrow domestic walls; Where words come out from the depth of truth; Where tireless striving stretches its arms towards perfection; Where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way into the dreary desert sand of dead habit; Where the mind is led forward by thee into ever-widening thought and action -- Into that heaven of freedom, my Father, let my country awake.

Lumos3 (talk) 20:03, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

National anthems

"Tagore thus became the only person ever to have written the national anthems of two nations."

Greece and Cyprus have the same national anthem, written by Dionýsios Solomós, so this is incorrect. He is the only person to have written two different national anthems. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 01:59, 6 August 2009 (UTC) standardization

timeline

What happened to the timeline? I don't see it anywhere at the moment. Wiki-uk (talk) 13:52, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Current Infobox

This infobox may not meet Wikipedia's long practiced infobox guideline for the Authors. It contains just the name, picture, and signature of Rabindranath. But more info can be added. Tanvir 17:42, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Nixing redundant clutter helps readers. Tagore's head shot and sig have more impact alone than when ensconced within an bloated box of factoids.

Biography infoboxes are optional. Many bios lack them (e.g., Yeats, Colley Cibber).

If this was a chemical element (Tagorium) or pathogen (Tagoritis), that would be a different matter.

Regards. Saravask 12:36, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

A short infobox can help the readers to get a good, to-the-point, and informative overview. Don't you agree? Can't we follow this one (Henrik Ibsen)? If you include a list of Influences & Influenced person it'll help the readers to get those info without reading the whole article or at least a section. Thanks. Tanvir 13:42, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Old box

In the old box, only the influence[d|s] partly unique. Why "Rabindranath Tagore" needs to be repeated, all of a few inches away from the article title? If long lists of (often dubious) "Influences|Influences" is so riveting (which I doubt readers care for), why not include it in the lead?

I am not that bothered by this either way. If the box needs to be re-added, then feel free. Regards. Saravask 14:29, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I second Tanvir. I feel an infobox is essential for any article. It is very useful for a quick glimpse over the subject matter. --Jonoikobangali (talk) 16:06, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Besides, infobox will help to reduced the empty space beside the TOC. I'm gonna add the infobox. Thank you all. Tanvir 08:16, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Article needs to be semi protected

This article has been vandalized several times. Unreferenced info is adding continuously by various I.P., not so good for a FA class article. Semi protection is needed now. Regards, Tanvir 12:45, 16 February 2010 (UTC) {{User:WildBot/m01|dabs=[[Gora]], [[internationalist]],

Semi-Protection

I've recommended the page to be semi-protected. Amartya ray2001 (talk) 01:35, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Tagore and Romania

Hi, I am Assistant Professor at Bucharest University, my user name in Romanian wikipedia is Mayuma and I met Tagore's name on my research on Mircea Eliade's books. Actually he visited our country in 1926 when he received from Queen Mary of Romania the totle of honoris causa in Philosophy and Letters at Bucharest University. When Mircea Eliade traveled to India to get a Ph.D. in Indian Philosophy with Dasgupta, a professor of Indian Philosophy at the University of Calcutta, whiche he didn t concluded he met Tagore in a famous garden, Shantiniketan and described this moving experience in one of his articles. Tagore was actually a guru for Maitreyi, the daughter of Dasgupta, the alleged fiance of Mircea Eliade, he published a novel in Romanian called Maitreyi, in which he described his relationship and Dasgupta was furious and sent him back to Bucharest, where he defended his Ph.D. in the field of Yoga's Philosophy. Maitreyi became avenatually a famous Indian poet and wrote a novel It never dies in which she explained she never had sex with Eliade before her marriage and she even confronted him at Chicago University but she said he didn t have guts to look into her eyes. I don t want to intrude in your article, I have no English wikipedia id, but you may use all these informations as you like it. Have a nice day!(talk) 01:35, 26 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.80.96.218 (talk)

"Kolkata"

In the infobox his birth place is simply this. If you refer to other historical figures, like Gandhi - (Porbandar, Bombay Presidency, British India) and Jinnah - (Karachi, Bombay Presidency, British India), Hitler - (Austria-Hungary). They all include the historical place, rather than what it is known today, so it should read "Calcutta, British India" at least. The Madras (talk) 12:25, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Dear Madras. I am very much inclined to agree with Florence's view on this too. The imposed external political entity (Britain) forcefully stated its claim to India. Thus is only recognised within your limited view of the world (i.e. the state system and nationalism), and thus should simply be left out from article. Geographic location is more than suffice in this case. Information pertaining to political entities in power can be contained within the wiki article of Kolkata/Calcutta itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Patrick emerson (talk • contribs) 19:15, 14 January 2011 (UTC) --19:22, 14 January 2011 (UTC)Patrick emerson (talk)

• But many other articles support the view that it should have the state at the time, and the country at the time, "India" directs to the modern Republic of India, whereas "British India" directs to the country in Tagore's time. The Madras (talk) 15:36, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Dear Madras. Your view again is rather limited and your argument of other articles supporting this merely reflects those with the ability to edit wiki articles (i.e. the majority of the northern hemisphere) that results in a biased world view driven by those who have the time and energy to impose a their western viewpoint. Tagore himself did not support nationalism, and plastering this information pertaining to an externally enforced political entity (i.e. Britain) is of little relevance. I expect most of the world that had been colonised by the west did not want to be, but it was forced upon them. We live on planet earth, how we divide land, and define political entities is completely arbitrary, and enforced by those strong in arm. Geographic location is more than suffice to define birth and death place. Information about politics can be placed elsewhere, in other wiki articles if need be, and is simply not necessary or appropriate where you have attempted to enforce it. Patrick emerson (talk) 19:28, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

The information is not superfluous, it is an integral part of the biography and is documented as such across WP. Your personal preference may swing one way, but please do not change according to that. —SpacemanSpiff 10:22, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

It is not so documented across WP as you say, this is very much your opinion based on information that you find in the narrow range of books and articles that you yourself read. It is simply not necessary, a geographic location is all that is needed here Patrick emerson (talk) 15:31, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, but your personal POV doesn't hold water here. It is convention to document the place and country at the time of life, and in this case it's all the more important because the fact that he was part of British India influenced a lot of his contributions. Please stop edit warring. —SpacemanSpiff 15:51, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Spiff: I have been following this thread, and also agree with Patrick. Your so called conventions and POV equally hold no water. Stop taking the moral high ground in this matter, and blaming others for edit warring. Florence foucault (talk) 20:57, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Socking is not going to get you anywhere, please refrain from using sockpuppets. —SpacemanSpiff 07:39, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

LOL. That was a ducky instance of a sock if ever I've seen one.

Patrick/sock of Patrick: Having the name of the state where a person was born in their infobox is not any kind of endorsement of the state. It's just something people want to know -- what political context was this person born into? It helps us understand what outside forces may have shaped their life and their career, sometimes defining them by contrast.

Your point that "how we divide land and define political entities is completely arbitrary" is interesting — but this isn't the place to argue that if you want Wikipedia to change its place-name conventions. I think common practice and common sense are in agreement on the use of the infobox birthplace field. Common practice clearly favors maximum specificity for the birthplace; one would be hard pressed to find a counterexample among Wikipedia's many biographical infoboxes where the name of the state was omitted. And it's important for us to be stylistically consistent from article to article as much as possible. I personally find that common sense supports that specificity. For one thing, it helps disambiguate between identically named cities in some articles — not that the average reader is going to presume that Tagore was born in Calcutta, Ohio, but in many articles city names are not sufficient to establish location. And I am inclined to believe that placing the subject in historical context is equally relevant. As SpacemanSpiff suggests, if Tagore had been born under a different political entity, his life's work would likely have been influenced in a different direction.

Perhaps Tagore would be dismayed to see Wikipedia's conventions of national identity being followed in his bio. Perhaps he wouldn't want the wider history of his origins to be censored. I personally suspect he might find the whole thing much too trivial to worry about, given all his incredible accomplishments. But in the end, the infobox doesn't seem like the best place to make your (anti-)political point. And unless you can persuade all of Wikipedia to change its habits, it's not an argument you can win by edit-warring. AtticusX (talk) 17:53, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

THere is also the other aspect that irrespective of WP conventions, this information is very vital to the article because being part of British India influenced a lot of his contributions and being a part of the undivided Bengal province is also important as his songs are the national anthems of two different countries, one of which is entirely part of the Bengal Presidency and the other includes part of the erstwhile Bengal Presidency. —SpacemanSpiff 08:55, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

• What about the issue of Tagore's nobel prize stolen from Shantiniketan? Firehawk895 (talk) 21:22, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Educational ideals

I find nothing about the educational ideals of Tagore, praised by Martha Nussbaum in her book Not for profit. --13Peewit (talk) 18:38, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Oh the firefly

Oh the firefly, which appears to be a translation of a poem by Rabindranath Tagore, is being considered for deletion. Your input would be welcomed at the discussion. Ka Faraq Gatri (talk) 11:05, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Life at St Xavier's Kolkata Section

There are problems with this section. It does not flow chronologically and dates are missing. I think deleting a large junk risks removing material from the article for good. Lumos3 (talk) 10:44, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, this section clearly needs to be removed. The role of St Xaviers School on Tagore's life is not so much as to deserve a whole new section! He was largelt home schooled. Also, the section goes beyond the school-related topic!

There is nothing in the section that is historically important for Tagore. It may be important for the school, and if needed those info can be appropriately added to the school's article in Wikipedia.

Moreover, this section has been added much recently. The article became an FA much earlier, without even mentioning St Xaviers. (On a personal note, although I do not know extensively about Tagore's life, but being a Bengali and having known major points of Tagore's biography since childhood, I do not remember anything imprtant related to his schooling except that he was largely homeschooled) Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 02:43, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Major problems in article.

There are some major problems in this article. Wrong formatting has broken a section, and just code is showing in the main article, an image link is broken and few more. Trying to correct the the most vital ones. --Tito Dutta (Talk) 14:10, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Need Somewhere to read the English version

The SNLTR and Tagore Web are all in Bengali language. Is there anywhere to read and quote the English version of Tagore's work legally? --Aflyhorse (talk) 23:56, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Hi. English translations are at Project Gutenberg and Wikisource. See Rabindranath Tagore/Archive 2#External links (under "Texts" section) for more places. I just now added this info to "Corpus" section. Hope this helps. Saravask 07:10, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. In fact I didn't realize that they were already in public domain under US Laws. However, the anthology "The Gardener" on Wikisource seems to be an abridged edition, Oops! I'll try to find some other external sources and confirm it. Again, thanks for your help indeed!--Aflyhorse (talk) 07:56, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

No problem. Happy reading! Saravask 08:12, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 25 November 2011

No clear reason given for "Semi-protected" status.

59.145.201.70 (talk) 03:12, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. Zidanie5 (talk) 07:25, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Mentioning Caste

Dear Editors!
There has been a discussion on India Portal related to mentioning of caste of subjects. The point is that mentioning caste of people, who have nothing to do with their caste, is found to be unnecessary by few editors. Hence the caste of the subject person needs to be deleted from the biography. I am not deleting the caste as of now but am only posting this here so that the regular editors of this article are well aware of it beforehand and no edit-wars take place. For details of discussion held on the portal please refer Wikipedia_talk:Noticeboard_for_India-related_topics#Mentioning_caste_of_Individuals. Your views if any are welcome there or even here.
And.... as the reasons of exclusion of caste pointed out were "irrelavant to notability of subject person", "privacy of the subject person", "inclusion of caste is like branding individuals", etc. other information included in the article which also fall under these cases will also be removed after discussions. Examples of it included religion, non-notable spouse's and children's and parents' information, previous occupation, lived in places, non-notability related educational qualification, etc.
Your views on this are also welcome here or at the India portal. -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 16:41, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Not here, please. There is a community discussion taking place at WT:INB and I would advise people to read the entire discussion before forming an opinion because the above summary is incorrect. Nothing more need be said here. - Sitush (talk) 02:26, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 25 January 2012

Rabindranath Tagore was born on 24 Jan 1861. GPOLIS (talk) 17:51, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

 Not done, unsourced--Jac16888 ^Talk 17:57, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 10 March 2012

Please change "and advocated for independence from Britain" to "and advocated independence from Britain". Grammatically, "for" is incorrect. One can be an advocate (noun) for something but the verb doesn't take a preposition.

2.27.80.62 (talk) 01:35, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

 Done – Quite right. MJ (t • c) 03:40, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Tagore's first work in prose is translated into English

Rabindranath Tagore's first work in prose "য়ুরোপ-প্রবাসীর পত্র" ("Letters from an Expatriate in Europe") written at the age of 17 has been translated into English and the translated text can be read at http://smashwords.com/b/147753 The current article has links to translations of Tagore's works and that list should include this link. Webmaestro365 (talk) 18:35, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Not done: This is a link to a store where you can purchase the ebook. We don't typically link to such sites. See WP:EL for our policies concerning external links. If you are aware of a free site to view the work, we can certainly add that. Thanks!   — Jess· Δ♥ 06:59, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 4 April 2012

Rabindranath Tagore's composition has been chosen as national anthem by three countries. These are the Republic of India's Jana Gana Mana, Bangladesh's Amar Shonar Bangla and a Sinhalese translated version of original Bengali song Nama Nama Sri Lanka Mata for Sri Lanka's national anthem: Sri Lanka Matha.

Please check Haroon Habib's article :Celebrating Rabindranath Tagore's legacy on the Hindu.

Rabinbs (talk) 14:19, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Edit Request: Tagore's "One Night" (একরাত্রি) Should be Included in the List of Translations

The list of English translations of Rabindranath Tagore's works should include the work titled "One Night" ("Ekratri" in Bengali). The book is available for free download and sharing and the year of translation and link follow:

• One Night (2012) http://www.smashwords.com/b/159494

Webmaestro365 (talk) 21:05, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

 Not done It does not seem to be a a book. In web HTML HTML view there are only 8 pages and in the PDF document there are 3 pages. Am I missing something? --Tito Dutta ^Message 20:12, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Tagore's short stories are scattered amongst the volumes of his complete works. This one is only four pages long in Bengali and it is also one of his best stories. The translation is an ebooklet with its own ISBN number. Since the underlying work is in the public domain there is no harm in treating this story as a separate book. Its inclusion will make a wonderful story available to readers of Wikipedia. Since it is so short and if you can find the time I would request you to consider reading "One Night" to be able to judge for yourself whether it shows Tagore at his best or not. Thanks and regards, Webmaestro365 (talk) 23:27, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Infobox

Strange! Why doesn't this article have a normal infobox? §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 08:57, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Date of Death

The death date is wrong and needs correcting — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lomper1983 (talk • contribs) 15:31, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Wrong date in biographical summary

Sir Tagore died on 4th Aug 1941 but in summary it's given as May 7, 1861 (aged -81). This should be changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swapnabhide1802 (talk • contribs) 04:49, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Nationality!

Clean up needed in "Nationality" section! --Tito Dutta ✉ 01:19, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Nationality

Rabindranath died in 1941, India didn't exist in that period. His nationality should be British Indian to be exact! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kmzayeem (talk • contribs) 13:46, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Nationality

Rabindranath died in 1941, India didn't exist in that period. His nationality should be British Indian to be exact! See this for example! --Kmzayeem (talk) 13:50, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

JINGOISM

Reverting Rabindranath's nationality as Indian is a pure example of jingoism, his nationality should be British Indian as referred in the previous post, please consider discussing the matter here before editing. --Kmzayeem (talk) 15:12, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

The wikipedia follows general convention, and depends on reliable sources. Please provide reliable reference where Tagore is described as "British Indian". Now, there is no question that Tagore was a subject of the British Empire, and he held a passport which said "British Indian passport", and the state mentioned was "Indian Empire". Of course he was borne and lived during the British Raj in Indian subcontinent. So, I changed his birthplace description from Kolkata, West Bengal, to Kolkata, Bengal Presidency, British India.

However, here we are not only talking about technicality. We are talking about convention, and so, please provide examples of usage of "British Indian" when to describe Tagore.

I am presenting a few instances of describing him as Indian (which is the common usage)—1911 Britannica edition, Vocabulary.com, dictionary.com, page 64 of this book etc. Again, technically he was a subject of the British Indian empire. But, common usage describes him as Indian. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:48, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

I second Dwaipayan here! Do you want to rename Partition of India → Partition of British India? --Tito Dutta ✉ 15:58, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

OK, thanks for the reply. --Kmzayeem (talk) 16:31, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Rabinndranath Tagore: An Economist

a) Tagore thought that he was a parasite as he was not capable of doing necessary labor and he was depending on surplus labor of the other. b) According to Tagore, city is also a parasite as it is sucking the blood of the villages. c) Tagore reinterpreted the concept of necessary labor by introducing a new category: voluntary labor with pleasure/toiling with full of joissance and of course without alienation. d) He condemned the extraction of others’ labor-time/ surplus labor and critrisized usaries. e) He had given the different semantics of private property, which was not merely property in the material sense of the term, but it is a possesion of creative mind. f) Tagore interpreted money-sign as /taka-rupakO/ “money-simile”, by means of which unequals have become equals by some necessary and sufficient conditions. In the “rupaka” figure of speech the identitity and difference between the object compared and comparable are blurred. g) The “body-politic” of democracy is the joy-ride of the super-rich. Here “opinions are manufactured” (1924). Tagore anticipated the concept of dollar-vote andentered into the domain of political economy. h) Tagore introduced a novel concept of surplus freedom provided by the cessation of activities (karmavirati) / surplus leisure (udbritto ObokaS) that could be executed if and only if the voluntary labor with pleasure might be performed. i) He introduced ecology as a variable as a part of his economics. This is one of the unprecedented contributions of Tagore. He was against the extraction of wealth of earth by the violent anthropogenic intervention. j) He emphasized on the passion of greed as a part of his epistemology. It can be reinterpreted in psychoanalytic terms. k) Tagore introduced “samavaya” (Co-operative) through the activities of a society called “SriniketanO” (The abode of goddess Laksmi) , though the semantics of this term is totally different. The author of this paper explained the difference between the detachable (samjoga) and non-detachable (samavaya)relations (cf. Nyaya darsana . As for example, suppose that we are connected by some non-eco-friendly electronic gadgets like CPU, satellites etc. , i.e. we are connected in the web—we have some definite relations. These relations can easily be disconnected according to our whims or by some catastrophic situation. However, may you detach the quivering and leaves when you are perceiving quivering leaves? This is another type of non-detachable relation, which is de-sign-ated as “samavaya”. The small-big i and I non-detachable relationship/communication without any instruments is something different from the anti-green techno-centric communication network between you and me. The citations of above propositions are available at *'City and Village' & '(Non-) Economist Rabindranath Tagore' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.79.36.158 (talk) 03:18, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Errors in Novel section

I'm not sure why this page is locked. It seems unlikely that this page has been the subject of an edit war given the total lack of any discussion on this talk page. Hopefully someone who has access will see this and make the corrections.

In the novel section, the sentence "The novel ends in grody Hindu-Muslim interplay and Nikhil's likely death from a head wound" does not make any sense. Grody? Really???

Also the term zamindar should link to this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamindar 66.57.60.99 (talk) 06:53, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

The article was most recently indefinitely semi-protected on September 14, 2011, not because of edit wars, but because of a history of persistent vandalism. Semi-protection prevents edits from unregistered users (IP addresses), as well as edits from any account that is not autoconfirmed (is at least four days old and has at least ten edits to Wikipedia) or confirmed. I don't personally have the authority to un-protect the article; I just wanted to answer your question regarding the reason the article was semi-protected.

Thanks for pointing out the nonsensical sentence. I've reverted that whole area of text to an earlier, seemingly better version, and added the wikilink you requested. AtticusX (talk) 14:05, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Picture

Please add this picture to personalities section.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gandhi-Tagore.jpg

111.91.75.16 (talk) 13:07, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

A cropped version of this photo is already present in the "Politics" section. The article has no "Personalities" section. AtticusX (talk) 13:38, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Nationality

The nationality can't be termed as Indian, since republic of India didn't exist then. Even though reliable sources like Encyclopedia Britannica term it as Indian, the term "India" refers to the whole British empire in the Indian Subcontinent or erstwhile British raj. So the nationality should be Indian but it should link to British Raj. --Zayeem ^(talk) 15:56, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Rabindranath Tagore criticism

Hello Ekabhishek I checked out the article on Tagore. But in the impact section it contains nothing about the criticism of Tagore by Bengali or Indian writers contemporary of him. I think it is biased towards Tagore.

• Dwijendralal Ray
• Kaliprassanna kavya visharad
• Suresh Chandra Samajapati

were among the prominent critics. Even we have modern views like that of Girish Karnad. Can you point me some sources to improve the article. Solomon7968 (talk) 08:00, 16 March 2013 (UTC) Solomon7968 (talk) 09:24, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Tagore's first work in prose translated into English and now available for free should be added to list of translations with hyperlink

This is a revival of a discussion on 02 Apr 2012 but under changed circumstances. Rabindranath Tagore's first work in prose "য়ুরোপ-প্রবাসীর পত্র" ("Letters from an Expatriate in Europe") written at the age of 17 has been translated into English and the translated text can be read at http://smashwords.com/b/147753 The current article has links to translations of Tagore's works at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabindranath_Tagore#Translated and that list should include this link to "Letters from an Expatriate in Europe" http://smashwords.com/b/147753 now that the eBook is free to download, read and share. This wasn't the case in 2012 when the eBook had a price tag. Webmaestro365 (talk) 17:47, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I can not understand this properly! There are more than one site(s) where not only this work of Tagore, but his ALL works can be found, see TagorWeb.in! --Tito Dutta (contact) 07:55, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Tagore's "complete" works have not yet been translated into English. Sites like http://tagoreweb.in and http://www.rabindra-rachanabali.nltr.org contain his complete works not in English but in Bengali. However, many of Tagore's books have been translated into English of which Europe Provasir Patra is one.
This translation of Europe Provasir Patra has only two publishers, Amazon Kindle and Smashwords vide http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17262056-letters-from-an-expatriate-in-europe Then again the Smashwords edition is distributed to numerous channels like Apple, B&N, Sony, Kobo, Diesel, Page Foundry, Baker & Taylor Blio, LibraryDirect and Baker-Taylor Axis360. The Smashwords edition of Letters from an Expatriate in Europe (Europe Provasir Patra) can be directly download or read online from http://smashwords.com/b/147753 for free. The channels except Amazon KDP will soon pick up the zero price tag and then it will be possible to download the eBook from eReader device channels for free as well but these channels may not be relevant to Wikipedia. If you need to see a review of the translation please visit http://www.theindiebookreview.com/2013/02/07/letters-from-an-expatriate-in-europe-translated-by-rabindranath-tagore-translated-by-ansuman-datta/ If you are wondering why we should link to the Smashwords page and not Apple or B&N or Kobo, that is because the Smashwords edition which is the only free edition is distributed from Smashwords, the latter being the source website of the eBook and the edition being known as the Smashwords edition. Also we cannot link to the Amazon Kindle KDP edition despite it being a verbatim copy because that edition is neither free nor expected to be so soon. Finally, Letters from an Expatriate in Europe translated in 2012 vide http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/147753 should be listed under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabindranath_Tagore#Translated because that section is a list of English translations of Tagore's complete books that are downloadable for free. It would be unfair to leave out the Smashwords link I have provided above. I am available to answer any questions.
Thanks & regards,
Webmaestro365 (talk) 10:40, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm definitely against adding book sources in the article! If I have to edit, I'll remove few more links from the current external links too! Dmoz should be fine here! --Tito Dutta (contact) 13:47, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Tito, do you mean to say that you are now removing the 20 text links plus 1 book source sans text from the article's section "10.2 Translated"? In 2012 I had suggested another title (One Night/একরাত্রি) and you refused to list it saying it didn't look like a complete book. At that time you had nothing against book sources—you just wanted complete books. Now, Letters from an Expatriate in Europe is a complete downloadable book and free too. Even in Bengali, Europe Provasir Patra has been a complete book since Tagore's lifetime. How did I trigger this antagonism? Why deprive the world of a free translation with rave reviews? Besides, the 21 text and book sources are still part of section "10.2 Translated" of the article! I hope you will understand the situation now and do what is fair and expected of a privileged and responsible member of the community and most importantly without bias or inconsistency over time. ~ Webmaestro365 (talk) 14:16, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

I meant, "external links"! If those works are in public domain then can be added here. And about refs, "not in use" refs can be removed! I am unsure of importance of ref like this --Tito Dutta (contact) 14:23, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Will you include the external text link under section "10.2 Translated" if the translator releases the translation to the public domain? I can make that happen very quickly but since such a release cannot be reversed, I would like to know whether you will list it under section 10.2 then. Please state any other Wikipedia criteria for listing a freely downloadable text under section 10.2 of the article. In this context I would like to remind you that you had said last year about another (different) external link: "Not done It does not seem to be a a book. In web HTML HTML view there are only 8 pages and in the PDF document there are 3 pages. Am I missing something?" vide http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Rabindranath_Tagore&oldid=491483406 Also please explain what refs can be removed from where? ~ Webmaestro365 (talk) 14:50, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Are you the editor of the book? If you are and the book's digital format is available for free, you can upload it to some other sites like 1) free-ebooks 2) Archive.org etc which will get more traffic. About, 10.2, we are mainly adding Project Gutenberg links there. In my opinion, we should remove all those "Text" links too, Wikisource can be improved! In case a separate article is created on the book, the link can be added there! --Tito Dutta (contact) 14:55, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

I am the copyright-holding translator and I made the book free on Monday hoping to generate traffic. Translators like me have a hard time getting traffic with porn and PLR scams eating up all the traffic and the situation is getting worse with fewer takers for Tagore today than there were yesterday. I thank you for suggesting a separate article for the book, which I may take up in a week’s time. Meanwhile please point me to some Wikipedia documentation that'll help me create my first article—the briefer the documentation the better. ~ Webmaestro365 (talk) 15:18, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

That's what I was thinking. You are trying to include the book to get traffic. Frankly Wikipedia is a good way to get traffic, but, not the best! There are other ways to get traffic. And about the article, yes, you can start one, see WP:YFA. Let me know if you need help! But, there too, I can't say, if well add this book link without verifying some points 1) publisher 2) author's notability c) ISBN d) license status e)alternatives! --Tito Dutta (contact) 15:25, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

• You were told not to advertise your own book! --Tito Dutta  (talk • contributions • email) 06:19, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Important images need attention

The following images of the article need attention. According to Wikimedia policy, an image should be free in both US and the image's own country. The following images don't have US tempolate. Please add relevant templates. This list will be included at WT:INB

• File:Tagore-THU.jpg
• File:Tagore Iran.jpg
• File:Valmiki Pratibha Indira Devi & Rabindranath Tagore.jpg

Tito Dutta  (talk • contributions • email) 06:18, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Please fix the link

The link to the Tagore-Einstein conversation seems to be broken. I have found some new links:

http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2012/04/27/when-einstein-met-tagore/ http://intinno.iitkgp.ernet.in/courses/888/wfiles/183704

http://www.parrikar.org/essays/tagore-einstein/

As I am not allowed to edit this semi-protected article, I would wish that you integrate them into the article. --Mathmensch (talk) 15:48, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Done but with a link that appears to be more neatly organized. Thanks Mathmensch. ~ Webmaestro365 (talk) 19:29, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

POV

The whole page is incredibly biased to the benefit of Tagore, often to unwillingly ridicolous peaks. From the opening passage:

...his seemingly mesmeric personality, flowing hair, and otherworldly dress earned him a prophet-like reputation in the West.

Ridicolous. --79.19.159.123 (talk) 12:41, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Tagore and Einstein mutual comments

Absolutely unnecessary in Travels section. This section discusses the places Tagore visited and notable people he met.

First, no need of unnecessary quotes.

Second, what is the basis of selecting Einstein?

Third, such eulogies are pretty much worthless unless you can put in some solid context. Merely making a sub-section and putting two random quotes is not encyclopedic. --Dwaipayan (talk) 14:53, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Fourthly, unsourced

Fifthly, we almost never create sections just to add a quote

I recommend not to add it again. Further edit warring will be reported. --Tito☸Dutta 11:51, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

SWOT analysis of Rabindranath Tagore . strengths of Rabindranath Tagore

I Want to know about the strengths of Rabindranath Tagore, meaning his best qualities . Can you specify plz. ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.152.96.50 (talk) 15:51, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Photo with daughter Bella

According to the book on Tagore by Uma Das Gupta Bella died in 1918 so the photograph could not have been taken in 1921. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.249.186.234 (talk) 22:39, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 April 2014

Please change As a humanist, universalist internationalist, and strident anti-nationalist he denounced the Raj and advocated independence from Britain.

to

As a humanist, universalist internationalist, and strident nationalist he denounced the Raj and advocated independence from Britain.

 Done - Thanks for pointing that out - Arjayay (talk) 14:14, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 April 2014

The national anthem of Sri Lanka. Original song was written and tuned by Rabindranath Tagore.Later it was translated and composed by the Ananda Samarakoon in 1940. SujoyCU (talk) 14:55, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not requested a specific change.
If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to any article. - Arjayay (talk) 15:23, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Pirali Brahmin

4-5 sources have been sited to support that he was a Brahmin. However, one must ask how he could be in a caste system of a religion that neither he nor his family belonged to. This is an FA, please investigate and correct this.

He was not a Hindu Brahmin. He was a Brahmo Dharma member. Please check and maintain quality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.97.141.27 (talk) 21:01, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 June 2014

Would you please add an external link to: Rabindranath Tagore materials in the South Asian American Digital Archive (SAADA)? Grace saada (talk) 19:10, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Question: Why? What does it achieve, how is it encyclopedic, and how does it improve the article. I have no problem adding it, I'm just wondering what benefit it is suppose to have. Thanks. — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(e • t • c)} 02:04, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. The materials in the archive demonstrate Rabindranath Tagore's global impact: they include some of his little-known political essays as well as rare materials relating to his time in Japan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grace saada (talk • contribs) 02:43, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 June 2014

“In the present educational system the personal element is being very much neglected. Our present teachers are only connecting links between books of reference and the pupil’s note books...So, now we have an education system in our country which is so very costly and laborious, which means so much of waste of energy and yet does not produce the maximum result.” - Rabindranath Tagore at The American College in Madurai

—Page 28, The American College Magazine, Vol II, September 1919.

Saradadham (talk) 03:48, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. —cyberpower ^Chat_Online 12:06, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Signature

Rabindranath Tagore's Bengali signature image was recently replaced with an English version without explanation. The source of the English version points to a page titled "RARE COLLECTION OF SIGNATURES.... ", hardly a reliable source of information. Granted, the source information for file upn which the traced version of the Bengali version is missing. Is this image swapping desirable in this article? —Waldhorn (talk) 15:54, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Tagore was color blind?

"He was likely red-green color blind, resulting in works that exhibited strange colour schemes and off-beat aesthetics." - I wonder whether this is correct. He had definitely differentiated between 'red' and 'green' in numerous songs and poems. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.95.80.14 (talk) 06:11, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 November 2014

Please change the born May 7th part to born May 9th. I know, as I am Bengali and he was born on the 25th of one of our months which means the ninth of May. 50.198.237.233 (talk) 14:09, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 23:35, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Request for updation 'India' in place of 'British India'.

Please mention as "India" in place of "British India". British came to India. India has great history before their arrival. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kvramalingeswararao (talk • contribs) 11:56, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Jorasonko

Please provide the citation for the ancestral gentry roots for Tagores of Jorasanko — Preceding unsigned comment added by 223.223.151.253 (talk • contribs) 18:04, February 12, 2015

See exiting note and citaion in the article, which points to the biography Dutta, Krishna.; Robinson, Andrew (1995), Rabindranath Tagore: The Myriad-Minded Man, Saint Martin's Press, ISBN 978-0-312-14030-4. The latter may have more details, if that is what you are looking for. Abecedare (talk) 18:17, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

spelling/link mistake., can someone fix?

it's written that he went on an upanayan but it's either upanayana or upanayanam as written here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanayanam can someone fix? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.120.240.17 (talk • contribs) 23:46, March 10, 2014

Done. Abecedare (talk) 18:22, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Converting footnotes

Does anyone have an objection to me converting the footnotes so that they use the {{efn}} template rather than the outdated system currently deployed: the "squiggles" are horrendous. - Sitush (talk) 13:28, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

No problem. Please go ahead User:Sitush.--Dwaipayan (talk) 02:18, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

FAR

Some uncited text and grammatical errors have worked their way into this Featured article; is someone able to brush up the article and provide citations to avoid the need for a Featured article review? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:11, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

I'll drop a note at WT:INB to see if any of the knowledgeable and interested editors are currently active. Abecedare (talk) 18:25, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the notice Abecedare. I am not sure whether I will have sufficient time, but will try to work on this.--Dwaipayan (talk) 10:13, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

I'll try to take a look also, although it might not happen until next week or even the week after that. - Sitush (talk) 20:21, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

A month has elapsed, so I initiated the FAR (the notifications may bring in more people willing to help). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:36, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Nationality of Tagore

Can I edit the line "Bengali polymath" to "Indian polymath". Tagore is universally known and referred to as Indian. His nobel prize mentions him as Indian. He was born in the part which is now in India and he was a fierce Indian nationalist. Sabujeinstein (talk) 16:57, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't know; perhaps Dr. Blofeld does? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:24, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, he is strongly associated with Bengali literature, but the article does say that he "reshaped Bengali literature and music" so Indian polymath and then that should be fine.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:31, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

@Sabujeinstein: This is a featured article and you should propose on the talk page before making any major change in this article, specially in its lead section. Rabindranath contributed in Bengali throughout his life and was a popular Bengali by ethnicity. The Britannica article, which you mostly prefer to reference while reverting others' edits mentions him as Bengali. - Arr4 (talk) 18:43, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Anachronisms

Why are we using Kolkata? That was not the name then. - Sitush (talk) 17:27, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Tagore's life as a "peripatetic litterateur"

Two editors (User:Maralia and User:SandyGeorgia) have tagged the phrase "Tagore's life as a 'peripatetic litterateur'" with {whom} for attribution to a specific person. The purpose of {whom} and {who} tags is to tag attributions to vague authorities. However, no attribution is being made here. It simply asserts that Tagore was a travelling literary figure ("peripatetic litterateur", as a figure of speech, in quotes), a well-established fact of this article as supported in the paragraph's inline citation as well as in the Travels section.

The instructions for {whom} are clear on this matter: Do not use this tag for material that is already supported by an inline citation. If you want to know who holds that view, all you have to do is look at the source named at the end of the sentence or paragraph. It is not necessary to inquire "According to whom?" in that circumstance. This case, we already know exactly who proposed that Tagore was a travelling literary figure: the authors of the inline citations used for the phrase in question and of the Travels section, namely Dutta & Robinson (1995).

If the construction of the phrase bothers editors, then consider (1) removing the quotation marks or (2) changing it to "Tagore's life as a travelling literary figure".

 —Waldhorn (talk) 17:11, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

I have reverted you, so that makes three. The quote is not supported by an inline attribution - I can't even see the source, it might be Dutta.Robinson or it might be a self-description by Tagore, or it might be a fancy way of using Wikipedia's voice. We do not do this in Featured articles - if you quote, you attribute within the sentence etc, not merely through the cite. If the template documentation says otherwise, that's tough. - Sitush (talk) 17:14, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, but I must disagree. It's a properly and clearly attributed assertion and complies with FA requirements. The quotes are simply there are a figure of speech. If you don't like the use of the phrase, then change it as proposed above. Misuse of the {whom} tag is not helpful here. —Waldhorn (talk) 17:19, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Ah, it is a figure of speech. So neither Tagore nor Dutta/Robinson say it? In that case, drop the quotes entirely. This isn't my problem, it is the problem of whoever wrote the thing; especially so because later in the same sentence we are apparently quoting Tagore. - Sitush (talk) 17:24, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Dutta/Robinson use the phrase as the title of a chapter dedicated to Tagores travels. Rephrasing or removing the quotation marks would fix it. But I'm not going to touch it today as I'm at 3RR. —Waldhorn (talk) 17:30, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Blow the rules, bright line or not - will this do? If Dutta/Robinson have not been introduced then it will require amendment, eg: Dutta and Robinson, his biographers, describe ... - Sitush (talk) 17:37, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Sitush (I still had this FFA watchlisted since the FAR, and noticed the faulty revert ... glad you fixed that! Unwatch now ... ). Bst, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:02, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Frenz source

The following was added between 1 - 3 December 2005 and was present in April 2006 when the article passed FAC. Despite this, it seems never to have been cited. I'm dumping it here for now because it is throwing a Harvard error. Frenz, H. (1969). "Rabindranath Tagore—Biography". Nobel Foundation. Retrieved 30 August 2011. - Sitush (talk) 19:11, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 July 2015

Bengali Film:Jogajog(Relationships)2015 directed by Sekhar Das Raja mandol (talk) 12:39, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 14:05, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 August 2015

Rajasthan Governor Kalyan Singh accused Tagore for writing poem for British King.

Socialadvisor (talk) 13:17, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Edgars2007 (talk/contribs) 18:01, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

File:Rabindranath Tagore - with daughter Bela to his left and daughter-in-law Pratima to his right.jpg

The above file has been nominated for deletion since 30 October 2015. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Rabindranath_Tagore_-_with_daughter_Bela_to_his_left_and_daughter-in-law_Pratima_to_his_right.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Debasish Dey (talk • contribs) 08:41, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 December 2015

Teach Editer (talk) 10:03, 26 December 2015 (UTC) H

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Cannolis (talk) 10:40, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

I think the user only wanted to be able to edit the article (topic heading). Since, xe signed in xe would have been able to do so. 117.202.49.216 (talk) 05:54, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Orphaned sources and cites

There are a load of orphaned sources and citations in this article. That is, cites that do not have a source either inline or in the bibliography section, and entries in the bibliography section that are not cited. Clearly, there have been a lot of careless edits but I am not sufficiently familiar with the massive number of sources to fix all of this mess. Is anyone? Or should the article be reverted to a stable version? - Sitush (talk) 14:40, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Rabindranath Tagore's date of birth

In the book Bichitra on first line of the first page Tagore himself mentions his date of birth as 6th May 1861. But here it is incorrectly written as 7th May 1861. Please check this book and if satisfied make the change for this page. Atashi oct3 (talk) 06:27, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 February 2017

2405:205:308A:DF1E:88F9:4813:DD47:9699 (talk) 15:34, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 15:58, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 April 2017

Please change "Thákurova ulice, Prague, Hungary." to "Thákurova ulice, Prague, Czech Republic.", underneath an image of a bust of Rabindranath Tagore (next to the subtitle 'Translated') 2A02:1810:3507:EF00:9CD:E1AE:B61C:237E (talk) 20:53, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Oops! I wonder how that happened. Done. Thanks for pointing it out. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 05:23, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Gandhi-Ambedkar Dispute Solved by Tagore

I could not find references to this event(Tagore's contribution to be specific) anywhere on the web, and the citation wasn't very helpful. Furthermore in the course of a project on Tagore, I talked to a descendant and Professor on Tagore who confirmed that no such thing existed. I suggest someone rectifies this immediately. The Professor also stated in no uncertain terms that Rabindranath Tagore was BY NO MEANS an activist in any way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2404:E800:E61C:3FC:91C2:CA1:D520:D387 (talk) 13:50, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Picture as a young boy

The pictures File:Young Rabindranath tagore.jpg and File:Boy from the caste of scribes, Bengal (c. 1856).jpg are duplicates. The first picture is a scan from the book Rabindranath Tagore: A Biography by Uma Dasgupta (Oxford University Press, 2004), and claims to be a picture of Tagore in 1880, while second one says it is a picture of a boy around 1856, taken by Robert Schlagintweit, and is attributed as follows "Abb.: अक्षरचणः । Junge aus der Kaste der Schreiber, Bengalen, um 1856 [Bildquelle: Robert Schlagintweit (1833 - 1885)]". 1856 is quite early for pictures I guess, but what is correct or wrong here? Wiki-uk (talk) 05:01, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

I found the original publication here (image 21). Schlagintweit, Robert von: Hermann, Adolph, Robert und Emil Schlagintweit Nachlass : Weiteres Material zur Asienreise, Photographien und Zeichnungen von Menschen - BSB Schlagintweitiana IV.2, [S.l.], 1854 - 1857 [BSB-Hss Schlagintweitiana IV.2]. Please check. Wiki-uk (talk) 16:50, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

I have hidden the picture in the article now, by commenting it out, until someone confirms that my understanding is correct that File:Boy from the caste of scribes, Bengal (c. 1856).jpg gives the correct date and attribution. Wiki-uk (talk) 04:41, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 November 2017

Not done: Empty request, nothing to do. - FlightTime (open channel) 15:30, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 2 February 2018

Sir, I want to make edits in this article. Please do the favour to allow me. Yours, Slugsheir 117.247.85.156 (talk) 09:28, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone will add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 09:58, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 March 2018

Please change "the first non-European to win the Nobel Prize in Literature" to "the first non-white person of 'colour' to win the Nobel Prize in any category" Chatterje (talk) 00:12, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. RudolfRed (talk) 01:38, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Bengali not Indian.

The theme of this books are basically Bengali. It is not about Bengladesh, India or Pakistan.

As to a wider context, they are about British-India and not about the rest of the subcontinent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:D187:1A54:BC40:F419:4140:FAC9 (talk) 14:35, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Bengali or Indian Bengali/Indian?

Being Indian and being Bengali are two different things. Bengalis are a race of people. Indian is a nationality. I find it atrocious to describe him as a "poet who is Indian", as there was no modern day India at that time! At that time, people from British India would be counted as being "British subjects". Counting him as being Indian would be inaccurate both from a legal and historical standpoint. He died before there was a "India". He died before there was any Nationality laws regarding Indians, much less India. Regarding the legal standpoint argument, I'll quote this from the Wikipedia page regarding Indian Nationality.

_{Effective from 15 August 1947, India was established as the independent Dominion of India. Along with subjects of the other British Dominions, Indians resident, born and naturalised in Indian provinces legally remained British subjects by virtue of Section 18(3) of the Indian Independence Act, unless they had already acquired citizenship of the United Kingdom or any other country. From 15 August, British protection over the princely states lapsed, and Indians who were subjects of a principality automatically lost their status as British protected persons. Between 15 August 1947 and the date when an Indian princely ruler merged his state (not merely acceding to) into the new Dominion of India, thereby transferring his sovereign powers to the Indian government, the subjects of his state remained stateless though subjects of their ruler, lacking any recognized nationality or British subject status.}

DarkSpartan (talk) 15:05, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

@DarkSpartan: "Indian" in this case means those from the Indian subcontinent before the partition of India in 1947. Indian before 1947 defines a geographic term such as "African" or "European". Kindly read the discussion that was agreed upon on Talk:Indian subcontinent and this article on The Diplomat. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 16:03, 23 August 2018 (UTC))

@RegentsPark and Kautilya3: I might be trapped in this jingoistic debate, might need assistance. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 16:07, 23 August 2018 (UTC))

@Highpeaks35: I've read the talk page and the article. You may have gotten the wrong idea from my writing style. I'm not trying to be jingoistic. It's just that people come here, edit the article to make it seem that he's from India, save and then quit. I can see where you're coming from. If that was the case, then it would be completely acceptable, even though it would need a bit more clarification. No offence, but the thing is that these people don't have a NPOV like you do. These people actually believe that he's Indian. Not from the Indian subcontinent, but from the modern day "India". I can also see where they're coming from. Idk much, but it may have been known simply as India. I'm just trying to be accurate here. Fyi, I saw your edit on the Main page. It conforms to the NPOV and clarifies some things. TBH, It's perfect. DarkSpartan (talk) 16:46, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

@DarkSpartan: Apologies for the misunderstanding. I agree with your statement -- and thanks for accepting the current version. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 16:51, 23 August 2018 (UTC))

@Highpeaks35: Glad it was worked out before it escalated. I believe I'm also at fault, my writing was a bit vague, my points were inconsistent. Apologies for the misunderstanding that stemmed from my writing style. So I'll take it as being as long as it is clearly mentioned that he was from the indian subcontinent, it's all right.

@DarkSpartan: He is a citizen of British India, and not Republic of India. He geographically belongs to the Indian subcontinent and ethnically Bengali. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 20:40, 23 August 2018 (UTC))

Semi-protected edit request on 9 October 2018

takur changed Tagore 122.163.3.31 (talk) 05:46, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Kpgjhpjm 09:08, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 November 2018

can you please add this wikimedia file on Tagore in the Wikipedia page? the image file has been appreciated globally. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rabindranath_Tagore_(a_journey_from_Sunrise_to_Sunset).png Sumitkonar (talk) 15:35, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: I don't see what encyclopedic value this adds to the article, but aside from that there are a couple of policy issues with this image. The timeline information should be contained textually within the article (see MOS:TEXTASIMAGES), and this graphic potentially places undue weight on certain events within his life. In addition, the information on the number of Rabindra sangeets appears to be original research. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 15:56, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Change Ancestral Gentry root

"A Pirali Brahmin from Calcutta with ancestral gentry roots in Jessore, Tagore wrote poetry as an eight-year-old."

Should be changed to

"A Pirali Brahmin from Calcutta with ancestral gentry roots in BURDWAN and JESSORE, Tagore wrote poetry as an eight-year-old."

Because long before their ancestors settled in Jessore,their ancestors used to live in a village named Kush in Burdwan.It is clearly mentioned in the book "বঙ্গের জাতীয় ইতিহাস,ব্রাহ্মণ কান্ড-নগেন্দ্রনাথ বসু"("Banger Jatiyo Itihas-Brahman Kando-Nagendranath Basu) that one of Rabindranath's earlier ancestors Dinanath,a Rarhiya Kulin Brahmin (they came to be known as Pirali Brahmins later on) was gifted the village Kush in Burdwan by the local ruler.He was the head of the village and that's how got the Title "Kushari" which would be in use for many generations till they started using the Title "Tagore".

Tagores were Rarhiya Bengali Brahmins and it is very evident from that as long as their ancestral gentry root in undivided Bengal is concerned,that would be in Rarh region which is in West Bengal,India.

So,even if Jessore is not removed,Burdwan should be mentioned. ভারতীয় বাঙালী (talk) 13:32, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Request for adding "Rabisarani" as an external link

I am hereby requesting you to add the following link under 'External Links' section: "Rabisarani: A Timeline of Tagore's Life and Work" URL for the above link: http://www.rabindratirtha-wbhidcoltd.co.in/Rabisarani/ This is a web based biography of almost day to day detail of Rabindranath Tagore's life and work for his 80 years life span. Hence I think this should be placed as an external link in Wikipedia for interested readers and researchers. Suranjits (talk) 14:52, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template.

Semi-protected edit request on 10 January 2019

Change "stricture" to "structure" 216.49.34.128 (talk) 20:30, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: same rationale as similar edit request below. SITH (talk) 17:17, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 January 2019

Change "resisting linguistic strictures" to resisting linguistic "structures" Ferilolis (talk) 20:53, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: "strictures" is a word and it appears to be used correctly here. If you believe it should be changed please gain consensus on the talk page. SITH (talk) 17:17, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 July 2019

In the Poetry Topic- Its wrongly mentioned that Rabindranath tagore is the second Non european to get Noble prize for his Literature Gitanjalai. But Right Line is Rabindranath Tagore is the First Non European to get an Noble Prize for his Literature. Please Change, Thank You. T0nyGir! (talk) 10:50, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ___CAPTAIN MEDUSAtalk 13:34, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Family history

The section on the family history is identical in the articles of Rabindranath, Dwarkanath and Debendranath Tagore and uses the same reference, suggesting that it was written by the same person or was copied. It was also badly written. Unfortunately I do not read Sanskrit so I can not verify the reference but I have changed this section in all three articles so that they are consistent. IMHO the article needs to be looked at by somebody who is familiair with both subject matter and Sanskrit. JHvW 06:35, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 July 2020

Adaptations of novels and short stories in cinema- Includes 'Stories by Rabindranath Tagore'- A TV Series upload on Epic Channel, now available on Netflix. SAhmad2020 (talk) 08:42, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

 Already done P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 21:29, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Knighthood cannot be repudiated

It should be noted that, in most cases including this one, knighthood cannot be resigned or repudiated, so whatever the significance of this, it was of no effect. --2604:2000:14C6:8085:849B:96DB:4B5E:5819 (talk) 21:40, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

King George V made Tagore a Knight Bachelor. He gave the right for Tagore to be Sir Tagore and (later) wear an insignia recognizing the fact, at least from the British perspective. The effect is minimal; I don't know if there are any legal enforcement on that in the UK or the rest of the Commonwealth, but if Tagore was serious about rejecting the knighthood, that would be irrelevant. They're both symbolic acts of relatively equal effect.--Prosfilaes (talk) 01:33, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

"Sir Tagore"? Try Sir Rabindranath. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 03:15, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Policy violation

@Suborno Sabbir: Your edits here violate the WP:INDICSCRIPTS and WP:NCIN policies (which was even commented in the article right there in the infobox and egregiously removed by you). Please read both of these policies and do not edit war here to violate them unless you are looking for a ban (and please leave edit summaries in your edits). Gotitbro (talk) 23:42, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 February 2021

"please change A Bengali Brahmin from Calcutta to A Bhadralok from Calcutta"

The reason for my suggestion is - regionalism and caste are the prevalent reasons for social conflicts in India. Therefore, it is not a good idea to underscore a celebrity's ethnicity and caste on a Wiki page. Highering (talk) 01:12, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

 Not done. Frankly, Wikipedia does not care. It's sourced, so I don't see a problem here. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 03:16, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 May 2021

This article denotes that Rabindranath Tagore was an Indian. But the trurth is that he died before 1947, Before Indian independence. He was a Bengali Polymath. NOT an Indian Polymath. RobinHood2001 (talk) 15:36, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: This has been discussed before, and supposedly "Indian" here refers to the Indian subcontinent, rather than the modern day country. Feel free to start a new discussion, argue that this should altered and change the existing consensus on the matter, but this is not something that can be changed through a simple edit request because of that existing consensus. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 19:11, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 May 2021

Tagore's family, though originally Bramhin, had converted to the Bramho faith long before his birth. So, it is incorrect to say he came from a Bengali Bramhin family. 103.52.247.138 (talk) 05:57, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 08:08, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 July 2021

223.227.16.207 (talk) 16:07, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

why it is called as thakur, it is tagore right

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:43, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 August 2021

Change ardent anti nationalist to ardent anti imperialist 117.196.174.117 (talk) 01:57, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:35, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Comparison of Tagore and Gandhi's views

This comparison can help differentiate their views on key issues such as Nationalism, universalism etc Spvijay21 (talk) 07:38, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Why...

Why is the article semi-protected? 2601:281:D47F:B960:84F1:F113:3FEA:7D37 (talk) 23:29, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Repeated Sentence

It is mentioned twice in the first paragraph that he was a fellow of the Royal Asiatic Society. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.18.125.45 (talk) 21:57, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Blue Plaque commemorating Tagore’s time in Sussex

On Thursday 28th October 2021 a blue plaque commemorating Tagore's time on the south coast and his attendance at the Brighton Proprietary school was unveiled by the Mayor of Brighton and Hove, Alan Robins. The plaque was placed on Ship Street, Brighton at what is now part of the Hotel du Vin chain, rather than at Medina Villas, Hove due to the uncertainty around which number property Tagore's family had occupied when residing in Sussex.

SUCHIDOT (talk) 00:44, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:58, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Judo?

The article currently contains this sentence: "His brother Hemendranath tutored and physically conditioned him—by having him swim the Ganges or trek through hills, by gymnastics, and by practising judo and wrestling." However, judo was invented in 1882, after Tagore had left for England, and it took years still to spread outside Japan. 79.184.94.34 (talk) 08:45, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

That's a good observation. Someone who has access (I haven't) to the source should check what is actually written there. –Austronesier (talk) 13:35, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 December 2021

In the list of Tagore’s works there are two adjacent sections that are both labeled as Original Fiction in Bengali. The second consists of two memoirs. I think this second section should have been labeled as Original Nonfiction in Bengali. Janey4444 (talk) 15:08, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done —Sirdog (talk) 17:38, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Birth name

Tagore never changed his name. It is cited in the article that his birth name was Robindronath Thakur. The citation used is the p.1 of https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/Colloquial_Bengali/3blgCgAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0, in which there is no trace of name change. It just says that his family's Bengali name is Thakur which is anglicised as Tagore. It isn't a change of name but just a variation of transliteration. Hence I am removing it. If one wishes to add it back, please do so as "Bengali: so and so" rather than "born: so and so" Appu (talk) 07:24, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

On another note, the term "Indian" in present context, refers to the citizens of the Republic of India. As Rabindranath Tagore died before Republic of India came into being, referring to him as an Indian is misleading. The issue of nationality has been discussed in multiple venues (most notably the "2013 Bangladesh India WikiProjects dispute resolution") and it has been decided to describe such poets from pre-47 Bengal as simply "Bengali" since they were known for their works on Bengali language literature. As such, the lead starts with "Rabindranath Tagore was a Bengali poet..." --Zayeem ^(talk) 10:05, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Educationist

Was Tagore an educationist? If yes, should that be added to the article. Appu (talk) 22:17, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Rabindranath Tagore

Rabindranath Tagore was born on 7 May 1861 in Kolkata. He was the ninth son of Debendranath and Sarada Devi. He was a bengali poet, writer, composer, philosopher, social reformer and painter. His early education took place at home by variety of teachers. Also through this education, he got knowledge of many subjects. His higher education took place in England. Rabindranth Tagore began to write drama from age of 16 . At age of 20, he wrote original dramatic piece Valmiki Pratibha. The best collection of poetry of Rabindranath Tagore is Gitanjali. Rabindranth Tagore received the Nobel Prize in 1913 for Gitanjali. His songs certainly reflect Indian culture. His famous song Amar Shonar Bangla is the National Anthem of Bangladesh he wrote the national anthem of India. Gana Gana Mana. Rabindrath Tagore Died at 7 August 1941 in Kolkata. 117.230.55.179 (talk) 10:11, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

Parents :

Devendra nath Tagore, Sarada Devi 2409:4072:6409:A026:0:0:136:50AC (talk) 05:55, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Education:

Presidency University, ucl faculty of laws, St.Xaviers collegiate school. 2409:4072:6409:A026:0:0:136:50AC (talk) 05:59, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Pratap narayan mishr

Paras 2409:4050:D91:E3D9:0:0:884A:3E05 (talk) 07:43, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Indian or Bengali

This, I seem, is extremely important to mention. Every citizen of pre independence India, which included modern day Pakistan and Bangladesh as well, was referred to as "Indian", or at least "British Indian". During the birth, life, and death of Tagore, modern day nation of Bangladesh (former East Pakistan) didn't exist. Tagore was undeniably an Indian poet who wrote in the Bengali language. He strongly identified himself as being Indian, repeatedly called "India" as "my country" in several of his works, and in general is well known to be an Indian poet of international repute. All of his siblings, and his Father are described as "Indian" in terms of their nationality, and so are several other pre independence poets from the Bengal region of India. Calling Tagore Bengali is like calling Julius Caesar Italian, or William the Conqueror as French. I did make a few edits which seemed appropriate in this regard, but they were reverted. In an ode to political correctness, it seems as if the writers of this page are undermining the importance of accuracy. Remember, Tagore was closely associated with the Indian independence movement, was friends with Gandhi, and even gave up his knighthood in response to the Amritsar massacre. I request somebody to please correct it. By the way, Tagore was born, died, and spent the majority of his life in present day Weather Bengal state of India. So at least it would be right to call him Indian Bengali. Nerdy Felix 16 (talk) 12:24, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Per Kmzayeem above there seems to be consensus to "describe such poets from pre-47 Bengal as simply "Bengali" since they were known for their works on Bengali language literature". You can always look up that consensus or start a talk at Wikipedia:WikiProject India. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 18:36, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Born

date of birth is wrong it's 9th may R.Rohit2004 (talk) 04:46, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 July 2023

He briefly read law at University College London, but again left school, opting instead for independent study of Shakespeare's plays

- that reads better without the word ‘school’? 212.161.4.84 (talk) 14:49, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done M.Bitton (talk) 16:03, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 August 2023

Rabindranath Tagore is from a Brahmo family, not Brahmin as said here. Docnovosun (talk) 15:23, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 17:53, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 May 2023

please refer to rabindranath tagore as indian as that was his nationality. Thanks 2607:FEA8:C5F:E7A0:2FAE:4099:ADAA:16BE (talk) 21:08, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. MadGuy7023 (talk) 21:10, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

I think "Bengali Indian" or "Indian Bengali" might be the most appropriate way to refer to him. He was an Indian and a Bengali and there is no contradiction in that. This is similar to being an American and a Californian with no contradiction. Except, “Bengali” doesn’t refer only to a geopolitical subdivision; it’s also an ethnolinguistic demographic category.

In any case, referring to Tagore as “Bengali” or as “Indian” can both be inadequate because of a complex history and current usage. Outside of India, the word “Bengali” is now often understood to be synonymous with “Bangladeshi” unless specifically referring to the Bengali language. This would be inaccurate in relation to Rabindranath Tagore. He was born in undivided Bengal in India during British rule. The region of Bengal where he was born and raised (and where he lived and died) is the region now called “West Bengal” and is still part of India, while “East Bengal” became the country of Bangladesh. Tagore was an Indian citizen and a prominent figure India’s independence movement and would have thought of himself as both Indian and Bengali, with no contradiction, in the same way that Bengali Indians still think of themselves. However, describing him ONLY as “Indian” is also inadequate. While renowned all over India, he is known primarily for his works in Bengali and his contributions to Bengali literature, music, and culture. This Bengali culture survives and is celebrated in BOTH regions of Bengal (the Indian state of West Bengal AND the country of Bangladesh). Two of his songs (both written in Bengali) went on to become the national anthems of India and Bangladesh, respectively.

I would recommend changing the description to “Bengali Indian” or “Indian Bengali.” Curious georgianna (talk) 02:29, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

I think only one small edit, from "was a Bengali poet" to "was a Bengali-Indian poet" in the intro section is sufficient to address the issue. I have gone ahead and made this change, but I'm happy to work with any editor who has an objection, of course. Curious georgianna (talk) 12:42, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Tagore is the composer of national anthems of both India and Bangladesh. He lived and died in undivided Bengal, British India. It's unnecessary to define him in today's concept of nationality. Thanks. CharlesWain (talk) 11:51, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not defining him by today's standards. In his own day Tagore was definitely considered Indian. Bengali is an ethnolinguistic group within India. In his own day it was ENTIRELY within India, though now there's a separate country comprising the eastern part of Bengal. In both Tagore's day and today he was/is considered "Indian" as well as a "Bengali" poet. Those are not contradictory categories. Also, he was born in undivided Bengal, but he lived and later died in what was already "West Bengal" because Bengal was partitioned in 1905, well before India as a whole was partitioned. And of course, both Bengals were part of India until 1947 (6 years after Tagore's death). However, you slice it, he was Indian. "Bengali Indian" makes the reference clear. In your edit summary note your reason for reversing me is that it's an "odd combination" --what's odd about it? I don't know if you have any actual familiarity with India or Bengalis, but as a Bengali Indian, I can tell you there's absolutely nothing "odd" about that combination. And, again, Tagore was "Indian" during his lifetime and contributed to the Indian independence movement. He referred to himself as Indian. This is a very small edit that clarifies his nationality. I'm having a hard time understanding why it's even controversial. I don't want this to turn into an edit-reversal war, so I'm leaving your edit as is, for now. But please explain beyond "it's odd" why Tagore's factually accurate nationality should not be noted in the intro. Thanks. Curious georgianna (talk) 16:51, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Curious georgianna, Tagore family also had root and zamindari in present day Bangladesh; Tagore spent a significant time in shilaidah, Kushtia, where he wrote many of his novels and poetries. Since separate nation of Bangladesh hadn't existed during Tagore's lifetime, all Bengalis were Indians. None used terms like Indian Bengali or Bangladeshi Bengali for referring to ethnicity or nationality before 1947. Thanks.CharlesWain (talk) 08:27, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, they had property in eastern Bengal, this doesn't mean they were from wherever they owned property. The Tagores were a well-established north Calcutta family. It's disingenuous of you to suggest he is somehow "from" Shilaidah just because he and Mrinalini lived there for a few years.

In any case, all this is extraneous. The real point is, as you said: "all Bengalis were Indians" --my point exactly. This means Tagore was Indian. You're trying very hard to keep from referring to him as Indian. Why? If we were talking about somebody of, say Marathi origin, nobody would have a problem with saying a Marathi Indian poet or something to that effect. This would encompass both his specific ethnicity and his Indian nationality. All I'm suggesting is to include the term Indian in the description because it is the more complete description of his nationality. You're making this controversial for some incomprehensible reason. And by the way, we do need to use language that reflects the way people understand things currently. This is an encyclopedia, not a time capsule. It's important to present information in a way that gives an accurate picture of the subject to real, current readers. Thanks. Curious georgianna (talk) 21:21, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

The trick is to avoid anachronistically introducing modern concepts while ALSO using language that accurately communicates information to modern readers. We can't just assume a 21st century reader will understand a word in the exact same way a 19th or early 20th century person would have done, without providing the needed context. Curious georgianna (talk) 22:30, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

It's clearly mentioned in the article he was born and died in Calcutta, British India (Present day Kolkata, West Bengal, India).CharlesWain (talk) 14:31, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Add Rabindranath Tagore's native name in Bengali

The article contains the Bengali IPA pronounciation of his name, but makes no mention of how it is written in bengali. The implication is that the english name is pronounced that way, when it is not. Instead, use the normal convention of wikipedia aritcles to state the native name of writers (see Leo Tolstoy for precedent), i.e:

Rabindranath Tagore ... (Bengali: রবীন্দ্রনাথ ঠাকুর, pronounced ...)

The same could be added in the table under his name, under the key native_name.

I have therefore added it in an edit. Please suggest improvements, should you happen to think of any. SaadiSave (talk) 13:45, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Name is not correct

Hi Team,

Rabindranath Tagore name is not correct in hindi. Kindly check 49.36.181.5 (talk) 05:23, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

This is English Wikipedia and it prefer English pronounciation. And also, his mother language wasn’t' Hindi. Mehedi Abedin 02:01, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

What was his mother language?

Cjjjkscratch (talk) 06:36, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Bangali 202.8.112.4 (talk) 07:45, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Bangla Highering (talk) 07:31, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Rabindranath Tagore name is incorrect in bangla too. Umeshktangnu (talk) 07:06, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Why can't we edit to following

Rabindranath Thakur more popularly known in English as Rabindranath Tagore

Wikipedia already uses this format e.g. Madame Nhu Umeshktangnu (talk) 07:13, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

"More popularly" is in fact the jist of our naming conventions (WP:COMMONNAME) and the key to the answer of your question. –Austronesier (talk) 08:07, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 December 2023

The death date is wrong PLEASE check, or PLEASE Grant edit request. The edit is to change death date from 8 August to 7 August KushanthG (talk) 20:40, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Lewcm Talk to me! 20:52, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

 Done The quoted source (Nobel Foundation) clearly states death date as "7 August 1941". Presumably the date in the article was a typo. Liu1126 (talk) 20:55, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Rabindranath Tagore Paintings

Please anyone has information about this please provide to Wikipedia. 116.75.148.136 (talk) 07:47, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Rabindranath Tagore Paintings

Please anyone has information about this please provide to Wikipedia. 116.75.148.136 (talk) 07:47, 23 December 2023 (UTC)