Talk:Prostitution in the State of Palestine

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Prostitution where?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. I think I'll let the move protection stay on for a while; feel free to start a normal talk page discussion till you feel you can get a consensus. MikeLynch (talk) 20:08, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

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• Prostitution in Palestine → ? –

There is a constant renaming between Prostitution in Palestine and Prostitution in the Palestinian territories, both of which are probably incorrect. Should it now be "Prostitution in Palestine", "Prostitution in the palestinian territories", "Prostitution in the Palestinian Authority" or the "Prostitution in the State of Palestine"?Greyshark09 (talk) 17:48, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose for now. Articles about the Palestinian territories ("West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip") are usually located at "Palestinian territories" titles (e.g. Economy of the Palestinian territories, Political status of the Palestinian territories, unless the page is more related to the Palestinian Authority ("organization [...] to govern the West Bank and Gaza Strip"), (e.g. Prime Minister of the Palestinian National Authority). With the resent RM of Palestine this may soon change tough. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 18:21, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

You oppose to which title?Greyshark09 (talk) 21:16, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

• Comment added List_of_airlines_of_the_Palestinian_territories to this RM per this move. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 18:29, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose Per the parent article Palestinian territories, this is the best title for now, though that might change when the Palestine RM resolves. If that moves Palestinian territories to Palestine, then I would support changing these names to Prostitution in Palestine and List of airlines of Palestine. --BDD (talk) 18:32, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Oppose to which name?Greyshark09 (talk) 21:16, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

There has indeed been some disruptive moving of this article, but I think my position is still mostly clear. This article should be at Prostitution in the Palestinian territories for now, although I would prefer Prostitution in Palestine if Palestinian territories is moved to Palestine. So I suppose that's a support right now. I believe Nyttend and I have the same position. --BDD (talk) 22:35, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

I presume you vote for "Palestinian territories" applies to List of airlines of Palestine as well. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 10:52, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Except under extraordinary circumstances, Topic in Foo articles should use the same phrasing as their parent articles, so Palestinian territories now but potentially Palestine if its RM goes through. --BDD (talk) 16:05, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Do you think in case the RM is not done, it would divert your opinion to "State of Palestine" as the parent article?Greyshark09 (talk) 18:39, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I've been commenting although that RM were to move Palestinian territories to Palestine, thus confusing my desires with reality. I guess I'd really like to see State of Palestine and Palestinian territories merged into a single article called Palestine, but for now, I'd still prefer subtopics be "in Palestinian territories." As long as Palestine is an awkward WP:DABCONCEPT, naming such articles "in Palestine" seems misleading. --BDD (talk) 21:48, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

• Comment I informed User:Dwanyewest and User:Nyttend of this RM because they moved this page. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 18:43, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. The present name is clear: think what you may on Israel/Palestine issues, pretty much everyone agrees that "Palestinian territories" refers to the West Bank and Gaza. "Palestine" is ambiguous: is "Prostitution in Palestine" an article about prostitution in ancient Syria Palaestina, or prostitution in the British Mandate of Palestine, or prostitution in the Palestinian Territories, or prostitution in Israel that's given an article name informed with a pro-Hamas POV? Nyttend (talk) 19:38, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Oppose to which name? (this is a poll)Greyshark09 (talk) 21:16, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Oops, sorry; I was rushed (and apparently not paying enough attention) and thought that this was a request to move Prostitution in the Palestinian territories to Prostitution in Palestine. I believe that our articles on these activities in these jurisdictions should be entitled Prostitution in the Palestinian territories and List of airlines of the Palestinian territories. Nyttend (talk) 21:36, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

• Comment Here's a link to the related Palestine RM. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 19:59, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
• Comment - Emmette, actually i checked - you are wrong and most articles on West Bank and Gaza Strip are not referred to as Palestinian territories (only about 40%); about 45% are referred as PNA and the rest is either "Palestine" or "West Bank and Gaza Strip". Anyway you cannot oppose to anything here - this is a poll which article naming is better "Palestine", "State of Palestine", "Palestinian Authority", "palestinian territories" or "West Bank and Gaza Strip".Greyshark09 (talk) 21:16, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
• I ask to close this rename on procedural grounds and issue another complaint for you user Emmette for puppetting me.Greyshark09 (talk) 21:19, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Puppetting you? You started a discussion on what the title should be. All I did was put in the proper {{requested move}} for move discussions, and add List of airlines of the Palestinian territories to the nomination. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 21:27, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
    • You renamed it and completely changed the meaning and made a rename procedure in my name - this is abusing my comments.Greyshark09 (talk) 21:30, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
      • You started the move discussion, I just added the template for move discussions. I reverted your original moves because I thought they were inappropriate and strongly against precedent.
      • Also you just moved to the articles to "Palestine" titles . That doesn't make sense if you want to withdraw this move discussion. Three people have opposed moving to something other then "Palestinian territories" anyway so your move is inappropriate. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 21:39, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
      • Aslo by changing "Prostitution in the Palestinian territories → ?" to "Prostitution in Palestine → ?" your the one who changed the context of other peoples comments (the oppose votes) not me. Why did you remove List_of_airlines_of_the_Palestinian_territories? Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 21:45, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Emmette why did you change my comment in the first place? to match your point? it was supposed to be a simple poll, why are you abusing my comments? why are you behaving against WP:GF?Greyshark09 (talk) 21:51, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

They were opposing to your proposal, not to mine! You rephrased my comment, but it was YOUR rename proposal, i changed it back into my original meaning.Greyshark09 (talk) 21:52, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

I did not rephrase your comment. I added the move discussion template and added List_of_airlines_of_the_Palestinian_territories to the discussion. You are the one who is behaving strongly against AGF. At the time they voted oppose this page said "Prostitution in the Palestinian territories → ?" title and the title was "Prostitution in the Palestinian territories" so they were opposing a title other then "Palestinian territories". Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 22:00, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

You did same thing as you did last time [1], but this time you cannot say that you were not "aware" that it is not allowed (pretty aggressive thing is renaming the article, putting a rename procedure in my name and asking other editors to comment...). So would you like another complaint on this? This time you need to be more convincing.Greyshark09 (talk) 22:15, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

This is by the way also a disruptive editing attempt on your behalf.Greyshark09 (talk) 22:19, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Move warring in the face of nothing but opposition on the talk page is highly disruptive. This page will not again be moved until the discussion is closed, since it's been fully protected. You're still going to be able to edit the text; it's just not moveable except by admins. Protection is indefinite because the RM doesn't have a defined concluding time; the admin who closes the discussion will need to unprotect it. Nyttend (talk) 06:47, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

I think reacting like that to nothing more then adding the move discussion template and adding "List of airlines of the Palestinian territories" to the nomination and informing everyone who had been involved in relevant moves of this page regardless of what their opinion was, and moving the page back to it's PT title (at worst a minor indiscretion) is far more disruptive then moving in the face of nothing but opposition. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 08:22, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Greyshark, I took a better look at WP:RM and there is a significant distention between a formal move request and an informal discussion. I wasn't aware of that when I added the move discussion template and I apologize. At the time from my point of view all I was doing was adding the appropriate move discussion template to a move discussion. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 04:46, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Apology accepted, don't do that again for your own sake. This is why i said you lost about a dozen move discussions - it includes all moves you have officially submitted by yourself as "rename".Greyshark09 (talk) 20:17, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

• Comment - considering lack of sources and lack of consensus for renaming "State of Palestine"->"Palestine", i tend to support "Prostitution in the State of Palestine" title for this article.Greyshark09 (talk) 15:58, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
  • There is no lack of sources for the fact that Palestine is now a State. This has been explained at different places. You are currenlty pushing this idea everywhere without considering what is said to you. Pluto2012 (talk) 07:45, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
    • Pluto2012, Palestine is not a State "now" - it's a state since 1988. It's recognized by more than 80 countries since ~20 years ago, more than 100 since ~15 years ago, more than 130 since ~1 year ago, etc. Actually there are still no new recognitions announced in the period since September 2012 till now (I expect such to come, but there aren't any yet). Japinderum (talk) 11:55, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
      • Hi Japinderum, the recent evolution has an impact and this is stated by different voters of the resolution of November 29. Now, it is not possible to give an credit to the idea that Palestine would be an entity or a future State. Palestine is now undoubtedly a State. That is the difference with 1988 proclamation and its recognition by UNO. Pluto2012 (talk) 00:25, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
• Comment what's the target of this move? I agree to "Palestinian territories". I disagree to "State of Palestine". There is no prostitution in the State of Palestine (unless somebody among the members of its institutions is a prostitute - the President, the PLO-EC and the PNC - but I doubt you can find a RS claiming such thing) since it doesn't control any territory. There is prostitution in Israel. There is prostitution in the Palestinian territories. There is prostitution in Gaza. There is prostitution in Areas A, B and C of the West Bank. Japinderum (talk) 09:57, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. It would probably be wise for an admin to close this discussion, which has become quite confused in the absence of a specific requested destination. There's a right way to do such RMs, but we've missed it. --BDD (talk) 19:41, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Emmette did the weird move request in my name (as in the past), my intention was to make a poll.Greyshark09 (talk) 20:06, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Like Greyshark said, no particular target, it's a poll. Also why close this just because it's a poll, rather the an move discussion with a particular target. Anyway it sounds like Japinderum supports a "Palestinian territories" title, which presumably means he also supports moving List of airlines in Palestine to List of airlines in the Palestinian territories. It looks like conciseness is overwhelming that these pages should have "Palestinian territories" titles. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 14:39, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

As I said in another discussion - I don't think there can be a "bulk solution" and the titles should be decided depending on the content, topic and context. Airlines list is tricky one (like many others) - what does it list? Airlines registered in the register of the PNA ("Palestinian Civil Aviation Authority" is a PNA institution)? Or airlines whose "primary base" is located in the Palestinian territories? Or all airlines operating flights to/from the Palestinian territories? It has only one entry - a company previously registered in the PNA that previously operated flights to/from the Palestinian territories and that was based at the Gaza airport. Now it operates flights to/from Egypt and Jordan and is based in Egypt - and I couldn't gather whether it's still registered in the PNA, at some Hamas institution or in Egypt. Japinderum (talk) 11:54, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

It is a "list of airlines currently operating in the Palestinian territories.", just like List of airlines of South Korea is a "a list of airlines currently operating in South Korea" and List of airlines of Saudi Arabia is "a list of airlines currently operating in Saudi Arabia". Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 18:01, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Also List of airlines of the Faroe Islands and List of airlines of Svalbard are examples airline lists for territories. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 18:13, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

If it's according to the place of operations (base, flights to/from) - and not about the official register, then the "Palestinian airlines" should not be listed as it's based in Egypt and has flights to/from Egypt and Jordan. No Palestinian territories here. Japinderum (talk) 07:48, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Just as J said - the only source designates list of airlines to the Palestinian Authority [[2] Arab Aviation website]. Also, it seems you have a very serious problem of misinterpretation regarding others' opinions.Greyshark09 (talk) 12:50, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose move to Prostitution in the Palestinian Authority, I'm fairly confident that prostitutes are unrepresented (;-> on the Palestinian Authority itself. Suggest that the move protection might well be maintained despite the notice above [3], but this particular RM discussion seems to have ceased to be useful. Raise a specific new one if you think we can get any sort of consensus, otherwise discuss informally is my advice. Andrewa (talk) 15:08, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. Cúchullain ^t/c 14:06, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

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Prostitution in Palestine → Prostitution in the Palestinian territories – That's the title almost everyone in the last RM supported. I don't see any reason for this page to differ from other West Bank and Gaza Strip pages such as Demographics of the Palestinian territories, Economy of the Palestinian territories, Communications in the Palestinian territories, etc.Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 00:04, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

I'll inform the people in the last RM about this one (minus Greyshark because he prefers not to receive such messages). The airlines article turned out to be a possible special case which is being discussed separately at Talk:List_of_airlines_in_Palestine. Also I would like to point out that this page was moved to it's current title despite universal opposition. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 00:10, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

• Move to Prostitution in the Palestinian territories, and move the airlines too. Future voters, please specify the title at which you want this page to be located, lest we end up with the chaos of the previous RM. Nyttend (talk) 00:18, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment:The name for the airlines article is currently being discussed at Talk:List of airlines in Palestine#Rename and that is the place for that discussion. Refer to the other discussion in either place if you think it relevant but if you wish to cast a "vote" on the airline article name, do it on its talk page. Here it should (and probably will) simply be ignored. We need to focus. My vote below. Andrewa (talk) 22:41, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
• Move to Prostitution in the Palestinian territories. Agree another immediate RM is worth a try. Strongly support Nyttend's advice above to specify the title at which you want this page to be located, and suggest it be applied to the edit summary too. Andrewa (talk) 22:41, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose – it's not clear to me how "Palestine" can be improved on for recognizability or precision that would make up for the loss of conciseness if we moved to a longer name. So leave it unless there's a good argument for some improvement. The other pages will likely move similarly. Dicklyon (talk) 05:02, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment: Note that the Palestine article currently [4] describes the geographic region in Western Asia between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, and various adjoining lands, and has a hatnote This article is about the historical geographic region. For the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, see Palestinian territories. Similarly the description at Category:Palestine currently [5] reads The category focuses on the historical geographical region of Palestine. For articles specific to the Palestinian territories of West Bank and Gaza Strip use the subcategory Category:Palestinian territories. For articles specific to the Palestinian people, use the subcategory Category:Palestinians. So the renaming you're proposing here is going to be extensive, and the people who set up this article and category believed the term Palestine referred to far more than the Palestinian territories. It's not so much a loss of conciseness as a gain of accuracy, see WP:precision. Andrewa (talk) 10:02, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
  • If there is conciseness to move these types of pages to "Palestine" titles, or some other type of title, then of coerce this one will follow suit, but in the meantime WP:LOCALCONSENSUS here can not override the precedent of other slimmer articles such as Economy of the Palestinian territories, Tourism in the Palestinian territories, Communications in the Palestinian territories, Demographics of the Palestinian territories, etc. There is no reason to treat this page differently then those. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 23:35, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose - i don't like the term "Pt", which is vague (unclear border definition), non-unified in use (UN now officially adopted "State of Palestine") and doesn't reflect the fact that West Bank is still to some degree disputed area (Areas A,B are Palestinian, but at least parts of area C are claimed by Israelis).Greyshark09 (talk) 19:59, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
  • You keep asserting that "Palestinian territories" is vague and dubious, if it were the Palestinian territories would be titled "West Bank and Gaza Strip". I'm glad you started discussing it at Talk:Palestinian territories, instead of just going around WP asserting your opinion, but the lead of Palestinian territories for years has clearly stated that Palestinian territories comprises the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Also, Here's a BBC map of the PT, and a US government map. They include all of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The praise "Palestinian territories" is very much in use [6] [7] [8] [9] [10].
  • Here's how people have responded to your opinion that "PT" is vague and dubious:

Nableezy "The [occupied] Palestinian territories (and the UNSC repeatedly has referred to the oPt, and multiple UN agencies refer to the oPt, see for example OCHA oPt) are the West Bank (in its entirety), including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip. The area under control of the PNA is not that. The claim that the Pt term today is widely implemented not to the entire WB and GS, but specifically to the areas under PNA control is completely unsupported and easily refuted. See for example this, or this, or this. The UN uses the term all the time, the idea that it doesnt is pure fiction. So does most of the world, and so do an overwhelming number of sources."

Dlv999: "There is nothing vague or dubious about the term Palestinian Territories. It is a well defined and commonly used term used to describe Gaza and the West Bank (including East Jerusalem).

Palestinian Territories is the name used to refer to the West Bank and the Gaza Strip by International media organizations [11], [12], in academic literature [13], by the UN[14], [15], EU [16], individual Governments such as the UK[17] and US[18], international human rights organizations [19], [20], the International Court of Justice [21], and the International committee of the Red Cross [22] among others.

Unless you provide evidence to support your assertions all you are giving us is your personal opinion, which does not carry much weight."

Sean.hoyland: "I don't think anything you have said there is actually the case. It strikes me a quite a parochial and oddly fragmented way of looking at things. Perhaps it makes sense from the perspective of a subset of citizens of one small country, but it's out of step with RS. As for occupied Palestinian territories, "Palestinian Territory, Occupied" is even part of the ISO 3166 standard used all over the world by countless companies/organizations/systems, and covers both the entire West Bank (inc. East Jerusalem) and Gaza Strip. It seems much more dubious and vague to push for the use of PNA and Hamas Administration to describe what countless sources refer to simply and unambiguously as the Palestinian territories, with or without the "occupied". It's very clear what the Palestinian territories means because it is defined by the green line that separates Israel from not-Israel."

Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 00:41, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• Greyshark09, you are not correct about "UN now officially adopted "State of Palestine" and not using oPt". The UNGA has allowed the PLO permanent observer delegation to be named State of Palestine observer delegation, but that has nothing to do with the official UN use of the terms "Palestinian territories" and "Occupied Palestinian territories". One is for the UN observer delegation, the other is for the territory where currently the UN considers Israel to be the controlling power. Japinderum (talk) 07:39, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Sure, but what are Palestinian territories?

Are those 1967 Occupied Palestinian territories (West Bank + Gaza Strip) [23]?

Maybe those are the currently fully Israeli-annexed and occupied territories (East Jerusalem + Area C of West Bank) [24]?

Maybe those are Palestinian-controlled territories (Gaza Strip by Hamas and Areas A,B of West Bank by PNA/SoP) [25],[26]?

Maybe even those are the designated Arab Palestinian territories of 1947 partition plan [27]?

A lot of ambiguity here, which is also constantly changing in the field. There is now an opened discussion in this regard at Talk:Palestinian_territories#Considered_by_whom.Greyshark09 (talk) 15:42, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Palestinian territories is quite clear - the territories occupied by Israel in 1967 and that includes all of your bullets without the 1947 one. It's a separate issue whether the article scope should be restricted to Areas A/B or should include also Area C (but that's maybe covered at Prostitution in Israel - not because "Area C is annexed by Israel", but because Prostitution law and society perception in both is the same). Also, you again make a wrong statement "Areas A/B controlled by PNA/SoP" - there is no such thing - PNA is only allowed limited administrative functions in those territories and SoP has none. Japinderum (talk) 06:59, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Also "Palestine" is even more ambiguous than "Palestinian territories". Palestine adds to your bullets Israel-proper. Japinderum (talk) 07:09, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support Naming Palestine will always be thorny, but this article describes prostitution in the Palestinian territories. So that's just what it should be called. --BDD (talk) 01:20, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
• Related discussion at Template_talk:Palestinian_National_Authority_and_the_Palestinian_people — Preceding unsigned comment added by Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk • contribs) 02:15, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
• Support - per reasons described in my 09:57, 9 December 2012 in the previous section. Japinderum (talk) 07:39, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
• Comment - the article is a stub, but in all of its sentences is used the term "Palestinian territories", so clearly that's the scope of the article and Prostitution in the Palestinian territories is the correct title describing its topic. Japinderum (talk) 07:09, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moving forward with this article

I am currently looking to update this article. Most of the sources we have to work about prositution in palestine in the 20th century surround Tel Aviv/Jaffa. What is acceptable to include in this article? Is it acceptable to use these sources as an example of historical trends of the time? Is it okay to not mention that the scholarly research about this period is mostly about Tel Aviv/Jaffa? Any advice / guidelines on how to approach this appreciated. TelluricAcid (talk) 23:44, 11 December 2021 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by TelluricAcid (talk • contribs) 23:42, 11 December 2021 (UTC)