Talk:Playtime

Play Time or Playtime

The article has been moved. However, if I go to the Tati official site (http://www.tativille.com/) , it is Playtime. So what is the best authority ? Tativille or IMDb ? Hektor 11:49, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

The best source would in fact be the title card from the film itself, which after a bit of research, I see reads Play Time.[1] Fair enough if I move the page again? David L Rattigan 11:59, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

"Play Time" is free from any important links, so there is no danger of double-redirect. By the way, I have seen both versions used. When Arte presented all Tati's films 2 years ago, it was Playtime. In some prospectuses I see it as PlayTime. Maybe this was Tati's original intension and it was turned to Playtime. If you just capitalize the T, no redirect is needed. Hoverfish 14:20, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I think PlayTime with a capital "T" would be the worst possible solution, and probably anachronistic - I'm sure capitalizing letters in the middle of words like that is quite a recent development. David L Rattigan 14:49, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

The title of the film is definitely Play Time. David L Rattigan is correct. The title card from the film and the title card from the restoration information introduction both clearly say "Play Time". The published script also has the title that way. A Wikipedian should move this page back and create a redirect page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.136.42.118 (talk • contribs) 23:50, 28 October 2006

If you look at the edit history for "Play Time" ([2]), apparently this page was moved to "Playtime" because that's how the official Jacques Tati website, http://www.tativille.com , spells it. It would be easy to move the page back to where it originally was, but... are we all in agreement then that this title card says "Play Time" and that the official website is incorrect? Esn 02:06, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

How could an official web site be incorrect on such a thing ? It is managed by the family of Jacques Tati (Jérôme Deschamps and al.) ! Hektor 11:10, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

My opinion is that it should be Playtime, by the way, if this helps any. Hoverfish 12:07, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, an official website could be incorrect if the people running it simply didn't think it was very important whether it was "Play Time" or "Playtime". I'm sure they didn't think anybody would care this much! If you look at the title in the film itself, though (it's the same as the one on the poster), it's quite clearly not "Playtime" because there's a capital "T" there. "P" and "T" are capital letters, the rest are lowercase. What's not so clear is whether there's a space before the "T".

Therefore, are two possible titles for this film, "PlayTime" or "Play Time". "Playtime" is demonstratably incorrect - the original film poster and the title within the film should take precedence over what the official website says. How the film is named in film festivals doesn't matter - I've seen films misnamed quite often. What does matter is what the original title was. Esn 05:56, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

The same problem seems to occur with later Play Time films, some list them as one word some as two. Whatever name is decided, the alternative naming should be mentioned up top. If it wasn't for the grammatical error I would insist in PlayTime, but you are right Esn in your reasoning. For me it's just a matter of how I have been used to refer to it, so, nothing encyclopedic about my opinion really. It is not all that important, but some decision must be taken, because it's very unpractical to keep changing the title. Hoverfish 12:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

The 5th reply said that the published script of the film spells it "Play Time". Now that would be conclusive proof if it's true, but where is there a published script of the film? I thought Tati threw the script into the ruins of Tativille when it was demolished... Esn 12:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Esn, a couple of things. The published script that I saw in a film archive bibliography was not released by the filmmaker. I believe it was a transcribed version from the video done for educational purposes. There is not much dialogue in the film and it could not have been that difficult to do --- or that long! However, I disagree with you that it would be conclusive proof. If a film has title card then that is the title of the film. Sometimes it is difficult to infer things like punctuation or subtitles vs title fragments. But Play Time is clearly two capitalized words with a space. This is in ALL versions of the film print and all the extant video versions that I have seen. The title of this film is "Play Time". That is not contentious in my opinion. What matters is what the Wikipedia policy is on naming articles that have a film as their subject. If what matters is common use, there is an argument for using Playtime. If what matters is accuracy, there should be no debate. I think many people are uncomfortable emotionally with changing the name of something that they are used to calling by another name. There is still tremendous obstinacy about De Sica's "Bicycle Thieves" as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.102.226.147 (talk • contribs) 05:36, 30 December 2006

Bicycle Thieves is a different matter, because that film actually has an official English title, which is "The Bycicle Thief". It was never released under the name "Bicycle Thieves" in any English-speaking country. "Play Time" was, so I think it's time to change the title. Esn 08:12, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

The pedant in me is forced to interject 'au contraire' Cop 633 14:09, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I support "Play Time", but "Bicycle Thieves" was released in the UK under that name. You'd better get the facts right. 121.6.49.193 09:57, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, now that I look at it, I might've been a bit hasty. According to IMDB, the film was released as "Playtime" in the US, and it's true that the use of one word is far more natural for English-speakers than French-speakers. Visually, too "Playtime" looks much nicer in a sentence than "Play Time". Well, I guess the deed is done... Esn 08:19, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

The deed may be done at the moment, but the deed can still be undone... we can change it back. The film, for whatever reason and with whatever history behind it, is universally known in English as Playtime. And if anybody thinks the Wikipedia article should be leading a movement to try to have it be known as something else in the future, they have misunderstood what Wikipedia is about. I propose we change it back. --SethTisue 12:12, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Having lived thru this page being moved more than once and reading the various arguments I want to suggest a compromise that I have a feeling that neither side of the debate will like, but, is at least worth mentioning. In the next move why not think about nameing the page PlayTime. This acknowledges the strong leanings towards the one word title. It also allows for the fact that most of the publicity material for the film and the two Criterion Collection DVD releases have the letter T capitalized. I would just add that there is a precedent for this here at wikipedia, see the page for the British soap opera EastEnders wherein the 2nd E is capitalized the same way that it is in the shows credits. Having just watched the recent CC DVD release the capital T is used in the opening credits of the film and in the various excellent (sorry POV I know) extras that accompany the 2 disc set but it does usually look like it is one word not two. Whatever the final decision you may want to put a hidden message (like the one in the Audrey Hepburn infobox explaining why they don't want numerous films added to the notable roles section) on the main page telling editors to come to this talk page and read the consensus decision before attempting to move the page again. I have one question; should this discussion be moved to the filmproject page to get more feedback? Cheers to all. MarnetteD | Talk 20:33, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Jérôme Deschamps is not Tati's family, he is a half cousin of Tati's wife, he is of no relationship to the Tatischeff family. Deschamps claimed Tati's work when Sophie Tatischeff died. After her death Deschamps began actively promoting himself through the restorations of Tati's work. He had nothing to do with the original conception of any of his movies. Tati himself despised the Deschamps family. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.133.27.147 (talk) 18:17, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Jerome Deschamps association to Jacques Tati in his own words; “My mother’s German cousin was the wife of Jacques Tati”. That makes Jerome Deschamps the removed half cousin with no direct link to the Tatischeff family.

[3]

“Even if this is not a link of very close kinship, it is located that I am finally the only family remaining after the death in last October of Sophie Tatischeff”. This is a false claim proved by the article La postérité de M. Hulot [4]

Jacq Tati's only living family, his eldest daughter and his only grandchildren now live in England http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0004244/bio. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.39.132.132 (talk) 05:06, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

i don't edit WP, but i thought i'd leave this here - http://lareviewofbooks.org/article.php?type=&id=1588&fulltext=1&media=#article-text-cutpoint - "I recently sent Rosenbaum an email asking why he, like most critics, invariably rendered the title Playtime, one word, despite its clear spelling as two in the main credits. Serendipitously, he was at work on a series of essays for a forthcoming book about Tati, and this exact discussion had been taking place with his editors. The official word from Tati’s estate had come back not long ago: the movie was to be referred to as PlayTime, a spelling I’d never seen. At least it’s a compromise, I wrote.

“I don’t consider it a compromise of any sort,” he replied, pointed as ever. “What arguably makes it better than either Playtime or Play Time is that it clarifies the fact that it isn’t an English title but one in franglais, which, as Tati clarified in interviews, was part of his point — a point that gets completely lost if you simply assume that it’s an English title, as most Americans do.”" 208.3.81.230 (talk) 18:42, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Citation Needed

Is there a citation of the Gilbert Adair quote toward the end of the article? It sounds suspiciously similar to Noel Burch in the Theory of Film Practice: [Tati's film] is the first in the history of cinema that not only must be seen several times, but also must be viewed from several different distances from the screen". Page 47 in the 1973 Secker and Warburg edition of Helen R. Lane's translation.

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 07:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 06:39, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

---

Play Time → Playtime – It may be stylized as PlayTime, but it is one word (like Goodfellas), and in running text is referred to as Playtime.[5][6][7][8] Also, playtime tati gets many more Google hits than "play time" tati. Film Fan (talk) 10:06, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

• Support the move but not to using the lower case "t". I also support using the stylized version as the opening credits - the posters - and the DVD releases all use a capital "T" as in PlayTime and I think that we should follow suit. We do have a precedence for this in the EastEnders article. MarnetteD | Talk 20:26, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
  • In running text it is referred to as Playtime (with a lower case T) so, for consistency, that is the correct title to use. Film Fan (talk) 01:03, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
    • Google hits is not a substitute for what the filmmakers intentions was. Tati controlled the credits and all of the initial supporting advertising. As with the thread on this page from several years ago there is no firm evidence that the running text ever used a lower case t. Just because people picked up its usage over the years does not replace what the film was known as on its original release. On another note it would be nice if you signature matched your user name. MarnetteD | Talk 03:28, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
      • Original intentions is a different discussion. What matters here is the most common use in English-speaking countries right now. And that is Playtime. Film Fan (talk) 14:36, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
• Support as "Playtime". Camel case is pretty off-putting, and looking at the other wikis most of them seem to use the lower case T, those that don't are the ones which render it as "Play Time" anyway. GRAPPLE X 15:16, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
  • As for matching the promotional material, etc, the article title for Alien 3 is not rendered Alien³, nor is Existenz listed at eXistenZ (these were just the very first two examples I thought to check). GRAPPLE X 15:18, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
    • Thanks for your input but I want to point out that it isn't just promotional material. It is the actual title as seen onscreen. I already mentioned EastEnders we also have BASEketball so there is precedence for using the uppercase "T". We also have "Credits are as seen onscreen" which can apply to titles as well as names. Apologies if this post causes offense and if consensus is to change it the other way then that is fine. Cheers MarnetteD | Talk 15:28, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
      • By "promotional material" I simply meant lumping in credits, posters, trailers, etc; all that studio-official stuff. Though the fact that we have two sets of articles where titles are treated differently probably does need sorting out. I'm not fussed either way so long as there's consistency, I just checked the first ones I could think of with stylised titles and went with that. GRAPPLE X 15:32, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
• Support (without the stylisation) – Both variants are in wide usage, but Playtime seems to be more widespread. On another note a Google web search isn't a good way of assessing the situation, since many of the hits will include non-reliable sources such as forums etc, so a Google books and scholar search returns more authoritative results.

I favor the title without the big 'T' stylisation, since a Google Books search generally favors its usage without it. As per WP:COMMONNAME we should generally write it as most reliable sources write it, which means we can end up with inconsistencies between articles depending on how sources refer to it. As for the EastEnders analogy, a Google Books search shows both styles in use, although it favors Eastenders so I tend to think the editors have got it wrong on that article. Although we are technically not required to take "official" names into account, it was registered in the US copyright database as Playtime: [9] Betty Logan (talk) 14:16, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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