Talk:Piotrków Trybunalski Ghetto

Wp:due weight situation

Some Jewish web portals include in their description of the Ghetto in Piotrków Trybunalski an incident which had nothing to do with the Ghetto itself, including often grossly insufficient description of exactly: who, what, when, where and why? Regardless of circumstances, the 1946 court case is also out of proportion with the scope of the Jewish martyrology there. I did not mention it in mainspace, nevertheless, I am fully aware of it.

In mid November 1946 the Military Court in Łodź sentenced to life in prison Piotrków's career criminal Tadeusz Miedzierski, already serving life sentence for murder-robbery before the war broke out, but released under the occupation. On 8 November 1945 Miedzierski (helped by juvenile Stanisław Czuma) robbed and killed three returning Jews at Łąkowa 22 Street in Piotrków. Historian Marcin Zaremba in his book Wielka trwoga about the crime in wartorn Poland noted that the shooting death of Sala Uszerowicz, Lajzer Malc (Melc) and Rachel Rolnik was an act of pure banditry. The two men also murdered a non-Jewish Pole Stefan Markowski (the one Christian known to authorities by name) and stole from him 25,000 zloty and 150 dollars. His sister was murdered likely by Bronisław Misler (another one of Miedzierski accomplices). The accused pleaded not guilty. The increase of lawlessness was associated with the takeover of Poland and affected all citizens. See: Marcin Zaremba, Wielka trwoga pages 343–. Poeticbent talk 02:38, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Images

The poster pictured in the article does not mention a ghetto. Instead it is an announcement of the 'Council of the Eldest' of the jewish parish from Petrikau/Petrikou that the [german] 'General Governor' decreed that all jews in the 'General Government' are obliged to register their property. 178.12.232.227 (talk) 15:17, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

• The poster written of the right side in the Polish language, printed by the Judenrat in Piotrków and signed by the President of its Council of Elders reads:

Obwieszczenie.
   Zarząd Gminy Żydowskiej w Piotrkowie
zawiadamia, że w myśl Rozp. Gen. Gub.
z dn. 24 stycznia 1940 r.
o obowiązku zgłoszenia majątku
w Gen. Gub. (...) całkowity majątek
żydowski podlega obowiązku zgłoszenia
w terminie do dnia 10 marca r. b.

— (etcetera, signed by)
Prezes Rady Starszych w Piotrkowie.

To my knowledge, there was no other ghetto with the same name in General Government in March 1940, ordered to register property as early as 24 January 1940 according to what the poster says. Poeticbent talk 15:43, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

The deficit with this image is not a geographical one. It refers obviously to the same place with different transcriptions in german and polish. This image rather lacks any reference to the existence of a ghetto in that place. It does not differ from the many other posters published around that time in the General Government, when the vast majority of polish jews were not yet affected by the ghettoisation process, which did not take up speed before april 1940. So it badly illustrates an article on the history of a (first) ghetto under german occupation. The caption "Ghetto announcement, 24 January 1940" as well as the image description "Official announcement about the Piotrków Trybunalski Ghetto registration written in German and Polish" are in that way misleading too. 178.12.232.227 (talk) 16:52, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I beg to differ. The caption reads: "Ghetto announcement, 24 January 1940." — It does not specify what kind of announcement it was. All the necessary citations about the creation of the Ghetto are there in the article. There's no need to state the obvious every time. Poeticbent talk 17:02, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

— Thanks for mentioning the image 'description'. I got it fixed at Commons. Take a look. Poeticbent talk 17:17, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

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with no relation to historical Piotrków Ghetto

Jakob the Liar was filmed in former Piotrków Ghetto area, so people around the world may watch it. The picture of the synagogue shows it perfectly renovated, so the picture misinforms.Xx236 (talk) 05:59, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Unconstructive edit

There were even more reighteous in the family removed by Icewhiz. Xx236 (talk) 12:24, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

@Xx236: I did not remove any text (to be precise - I did modify - "some 16,500–25,000 (up to 28,000)" to "some 16,500 to up to 28,000" - a pretty minor change. I did remove a clear WP:SPS and replace it with a citation needed tag - but all of the article text (with the exception of the minor change above) remained the same. What am I missing?Icewhiz (talk) 12:27, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

OK, but the two existisng references are wrong.Xx236 (talk) 12:28, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Which sentence/paragraph specifically? Could you quote it here? I'll be happy to find a good ref and correct.Icewhiz (talk) 12:33, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

SPS removed

I removed this, my rationale was that this is poorly sourced to a SPS, with many historians disagreeing on the relative danger of Poles and Volksdeutsche to Jews.Icewhiz (talk) 07:30, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Recent edit

Preserving here by providing this link; my rationale was: "c/e; excessive intricate detail". --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:04, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Escape and rescue

Preserving here by providing: this link. My rationale was: "unrelated to the ghetto; section break gives undue weight". Specifically, the first source given describes an escape from "a train running from a forced labour camp in Huta Kara to the death camp in Ravensbrück." The second source describes a family from Warsaw that hired a Jewish nanny; the account relays that the family and the nanny "found their way to Pruszków, and then to Piotrków Trybunalski". --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:39, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

A related diff. The third example relays a story of an escape from a train, while Yad Vashem links bring up only names. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:58, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

@K.e.coffman: I concur those two indicents are not relevant to the Ghetto and should not be mentioned here, however as discussed invididuals received the Righteous reward, per prior discussions we had about this, can you simply copypaste the conent to List of Polish Righteous which is after the place to absorb undue content removed from other articles? TIA. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:26, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Even though I started the List of... article, I don't own it; please feel free to expand it. --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:45, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

@K.e.coffman: If you remove referenced content from an article and know it is relevant to another, I think it is your good wiki-citizen responsibility to add it there. Best practices. Would you say so? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:33, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

I evaluated the content with a specific goal of seeing whether or not it was suitable for this article. Whether the content meet NPOV or NOR, and if the sources meet Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism in Poland#Article sourcing expectations is open to question. Given the issues in articles within Category:Jewish ghettos in Nazi-occupied Poland, I don't feel comfortable transplanting such material to other pages. --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:09, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't think stopping half way is best practices, but - shrug. I'll just ask you to ping me in the future if you remove such content without re-adding it to the List. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:44, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

This sounds like a great solution; I'll be sure to ping you. --K.e.coffman (talk) 05:18, 17 June 2020 (UTC)