Talk:Pioneering (scouting)

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 17 January 2022 and 30 April 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Gaby680 (article contribs).

Move

I see the move to this name has been queried. I have removed the speedy tag. I think this move is a good idea as it makes it clear that this is about Scouting and leaves the original name free for a disambiguation page. --Bduke (Discussion) 07:19, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

The move violates several conventions. Comment on the RM Purplebackpack89 15:24, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved to Pioneering (Scouting). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 11:18, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

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Pioneering (Scout Movement) → Pioneering — Move was made without consensus. Though "Pioneering" is indeed a form of the verb pioneer, the word "pioneering" more often refers to the Scoutcraft skill than the verb. Though Duke above claims that the current title clarifies the subject's affliation with Scouting, that is trumped by Wikipedia's naming conventions imploring the use of shprter names. Also, the title is inconsistent with capitalization and scouting movement conventions--if it has to be moved (which it doesn't), it should be called Pioneering (Scout movement) or Pioneering (Scouting), as with Orienteering (Scouting). Not to mention the fact that people have to go round Robin Hood's barn right now to get to pioneering.| relisting billinghurst sDrewth 14:52, 27 July 2010 (UTC) | Purplebackpack89 15:16, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

The standard for disambiguation is to use the simplest term; the project standard is to use (Scouting) as in James E. West (Scouting). See WP:SCOUTMOS. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 17:03, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

(Fixes Orienteering). So are you for keeping its old title, as it's simplest? Purplebackpack89 17:04, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose "Pioneering" ; Move to Pioneering (Scouting). - Pioneering is an activity performed by military pioneers ; pioneering is also an activity performed by the first settlers of a region, both these uses are more prominent than the Scouting activity. 76.66.193.119 (talk) 19:33, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

• Comment: Pioneering is both the common and technical name for some specific activity in many different areas other than Scouting; Many mission organisations, for example, use the term. But, would we ever have an article on any of these? If not, then there's no need to disambiguate at all. The scouting use of the term is the best known generally, I would think. Agree that the current disambiguator is not ideal if one is needed. No vote as yet. Andrewa (talk) 21:16, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, we have an article on pioneering in the context of mission: Pioneering (Bahá'í). ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 10:01, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, missed that one somehow! Andrewa (talk) 15:54, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

• Comment At present Pioneering is a redirect to Pioneer. On balance I think we probably got that one right. A quick Google search in English excluding Wikipedia indicates that most of the first couple of pages of the 10 million hits are not using pioneering in the Scouting sense. Would support moving Pioneering (Scout Movement) to Pioneering (scouting) though. Skinsmoke (talk) 23:52, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

That's weird. When I did excluding Wikipedia I got 19 million and a much more sizeable percentage of them where Scouting-related. Also, there's the problem that Pioneering is currently buried in the disambiguation, and listed under sports, which isn't where you'd look for it Purplebackpack89 05:38, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I have edited the disambiguation page to try to meet that concern. --Bduke (Discussion) 08:22, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

• The nominator raises two issues. One is that "Pioneering (Scout Movement)" is inconsistent with capitalization and scouting movement conventions. That is correct. Pioneering (Scouting) would be much better, but that change could easily have been sorted out after discussion on the talk page. The substantive question is whether "Pioneering" only applies to Scouting and it clearly does not as people have indicated above. That is why I removed a speedy tag to make way for reverting the original move. I agree that Pioneering should remain a redirect to Pioneer. However, I note that its talk page is a redirect to Talk:Pioneering (Scout Movement) when it should be a redirect to Talk:Pioneer. So I oppose the move nominated here, but support moving Pioneering (Scout Movement) to Pioneering (Scouting) and cleaning up the redirects. --Bduke (Discussion) 02:03, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Just because there are other uses of pioneering doesn't mean that it shouldn't still have the title. Your problem could easily be hatnoted: This article is about the Scout skill. For other uses, see Pioneer Purplebackpack89 05:38, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

• Comment The only explanation for the difference in Google hits I can think of is that I am using Google UK and Purplebackpack89 is using Google US. I have run the search again, excluding Wikipedia and confining sources to English, and again, I get 10,700,000 hits. Of the first 30 hits, only four relate to scouting. That doesn't, to me, indicate that the scouting use could be considered the primary topic. Skinsmoke (talk) 11:22, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Google results can vary depending on your location even if you're using exactly the same Google URL. Andrewa (talk) 15:54, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment Does not seem to be a consensus to move this page as requested, though there does seem to be an indication that the page needs to be moved. Clearer indication of the grammatical preference would be nice. Relisted. billinghurst sDrewth 14:52, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

• Opposemove as proposed, but the disambiguation should be changed to just Scouting. ~~ GB fan ~~ ^talk 07:39, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Pioneering (Scouting)

I don't see a consensus on the above proposal, so I am proposing a move to Pioneering (Scouting). ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 15:44, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

More on Pioneering

I support that and suggest that the discussion above shows a consensus for this proposal. --Bduke (Discussion) 23:49, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Even more on Pioneering

I am somewhat puzzled by Pioneering being "adopted into the structure of the Boy Scouts of America's (BSA) by Lord Robert Baden-Powell". Baden-Powell did, I think, visit the USA, but he was mostly in the United Kingdom (UK). Pioneering was introduced early in Scouting in the UK. I am not sure how to change the article, but the emphasis should first be about the UK, not the USA. Bduke (talk) 23:21, 11 January 2024 (UTC)