Talk:Pilatus P-3

P-3 teams

This page is about the P-3. many P-3 are retired, they are no more in use by the swiss air force or brazil navy. I can not understand why i should be not notable to write that there is 1 Team who uses 5 P-3 for airshows. It's the only team in the world with P-3. So it is part of the History of the P-3.FFA P-16 (talk) 22:09, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

I removed it because it was cited to a primary reference. If the team is notable then there will be lots of third party refs that establish that the team is notable. - Ahunt (talk) 15:49, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Ok, unfortunately the most things about the p 3 Flyers I found in the internet are just Photos or blogs often also Airshow programs with not much more tan the name and the photo. But I found a few, I gues not all of them are accepted from you) but may you think one two of them will be good enough (BTW in Italian and german Wikipedia is a Page about this team.FFA P-16 (talk) 20:39, 18 January 2016 (UTC) http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-swiss-pilatus-warbird-aerobatic-team-p3-flyers-aeroplane-91838192.html

Using third-party verifiable, reliable published sources is WP policy, and not optional. WP isn't a fan page where anything goes. English WP may be stricter about enforcing that than other language WP's, but that's how it is. However, it doesn't require that those sources be in English, but they still need to be reliable. Your continual inability to understand that is the source of most of the problems with your edits, and why they are continually reverted. - BilCat (talk) 20:55, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

sorry a mistake happend, i had more than the one link. The others where not copied to here , i will add them tomorrow.FFA P-16 (talk) 23:41, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Could you give us the links to the P-3 team articles that are on Italian and German wikis? Thanks. - BilCat (talk) 23:48, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Here the Links who get lost by my edit yesterday:

• [1]

[2]

• [3]

[4]

[5]

[6]

Wiki de: [7] Wiki It : [8].

May this helps to have a short notice on the P-3 page, that a team with P-3 exist. FFA P-16 (talk) 19:48, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

I have seen their current web page, and there is not even a schedule for the current year. Some links are outdated by over two years. No significant indication of notability through third party sources, though lots of Shutterstock photos and such. But an organization that does not maintain a current schedule can't be that notable. Of their 11 demonstrations in 2015, only three had valid links to the show. Not really a good sign for notability. Scr★pIron^IV 20:03, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

That is pretty much all wrong. The current web page is not citable, whether for notability or otherwise, as it is self-published. There is no need to maintain a current schedule in order to be notable, for example the Black Arrows RAF display team is notable yet it no longer maintains a current schedule. (As it happens, the current schedule may be found - right here. One might wonder whether it is a coincidence that it was last updated the day after your post.) And below here I list some independent online sources of information about the team - you just have to look hard enough around the non-English-speaking web. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 13:12, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Well there is no roul who says how often a Team has to fly a show. Fact is that they have a offical permission from the Federal Office of Civil Aviation The took also part at the 100 year Swiss Air Force /50 years Patrouille Suisse/ 25 years PC-7 Team airshow Air14 (400000Visitors) [9] (3rd on top)

Here also the refs from the italian wiki:

• pubblicazione autore=Gian Carlo Vecchi anno=2010 mese=luglio titolo=In volo con i P3 Flyers|rivista=JP4 Mensile di Aviazione e Spazio numero=7 pagine=74-79 id=ISSN 0394-3437

• pubblicazione autore=Luca G. Polidori anno=2009 mese=giugno titolo=In volo con i "P3 Flyers" rivista=Rivista Aeronautica numero=6 pagine=46-51

I hope this will be good enough for a "Five P-3 are in use by the civil aerobatic Team P 3 Flyers."

FFA P-16 (talk) 23:15, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

English Wikipedia does not get its sources from other wikis. English Wikipedia requires reliable, independent, third party sources. Provide those, and then we can talk about it. I have been unable to find those. It just does not seem notable enough for inclusion here. So far, there is a consensus that this group lacks notability for their inclusion. Scr★pIron^IV 15:56, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

"English Wikipedia does not get its sources from other wikis." All that FFA P-15 is offering here is a couple of RS that happen to have been cited on another wiki. To suggest that this rules them out is absurd. (Earlier, BillCat asked for the inter-wiki article links, so you can't blame FFA P-16 for having the courtesy to post them). — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 13:12, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

@ScrapIronIV I would say they are reliable, independent, third party sources (no mater that they are in Italian language).

• pubblicazione autore=Gian Carlo Vecchi anno=2010 mese=luglio titolo=In volo con i P3 Flyers|rivista=JP4 Mensile di Aviazione e Spazio numero=7 pagine=74-79 id=ISSN 0394-3437
• pubblicazione autore=Luca G. Polidori anno=2009 mese=giugno titolo=In volo con i "P3 Flyers" rivista=Rivista Aeronautica numero=6 pagine=46-51

May not good enough for an English Wikipedia article about the Team, but good enough to say on the Pilatus P-3 page that an aerobatic Team exist who uses five P-3.FFA P-16 (talk) 19:20, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Here are some third-party sources for the P3 Flyers, of varying reliability:

• http://retro.seals.ch/cntmng?pid=rmi-002:2006:78::382 (pdf)
• http://www.volarein.com/dettaglio_deal.php?idp=66
• http://www.pilatus-enthusiasts.com.au/P3.html
• http://www.aeroclubparma.it/acp-reserved/content/contentDetail.action?idContent=p3-flyers-1432724122970

Most are not in English, but Google Translate is your friend here. Together with the two RS offered by FFA P-16 and the sheer volume of photographs, videos and the like to be found on the Internet, I would say these collectively establish FFA P-16's point, that the team is notable enough to get a mention in this article. It took me about five minutes with DuckDuckGo and Google to dig up this lot. So please, let's stop bickering about poor editing skills and instead get on with helping each other build a better encyclopedia. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 13:12, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

We don't use fansites for actors, why would we use them for airplanes? Scr★pIron^IV 13:40, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

I cited the Australian source because at least it is in English, and the bulk of its information did appear reliable if a little old. It is not supporting any content that is not also supported by foreign-language cites. Therefore, I felt it would be helpful to the average reader. I suppose that technically it should be presented as a Note rather than a Ref, but I don't know how to do that. By all means delete it if you think it factually misleading to the reader, but I'd hope that whoever attacks it would feel that converting it to a Note was more constructive. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 14:31, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Re. actors: Article content is not governed by the notability criteria but by due weight and related content policies - see WP:NOTEWORTHY for an overview. For example an obscure actor might not be notable enough for their own article, but if they appeared in a notable film then they might well get a mention in the film's article. So it is with the P3 Flyers - no article, just a mention in the P3 article. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 14:48, 25 January 2016 (UTC)