Talk:Piano Sonata No. 12 (Mozart)

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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 06:38, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Gobbledygook

"a classic example of a fake-out of an essential expositional closure half-cadence postmedial caesura extending the secondary theme zone and deferring the essential expositional closure to the next perfect authentic cadence." Not having the original book (nor am I willing to pay $72 to get it), I have to ask, is this really what it says? Initially I suspected vandalism, but this is essentially the text as originally typed. To 99% of the readers of this article, this passage gets across precisely nothing except "we know more about music theory than you do"; even to me, a musician but not an expert in theory, it gets across something only by a lot of difficult labor. I am not saying encyclopedia articles should be dumbed-down, but they should be useful to non-experts. Is there no music theory expert out there who can express this in a way that actually imparts information to the reader? If not, does it not say a lot about our expertise if we can't explain things in a way that even a generally knowledgeable person can understand? 192.251.134.5 (talk) 12:34, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Structure of second movement

I would not say the slow movement is in ABA form. Where is the B? It is a simple form with two themes, repeated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.110.168.51 (talk) 02:54, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

You're right. Zaslaw confirms. Modified the description. Thanks.DavidRF (talk) 04:27, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Inconsistent date/place and movement descriptions

The Mozart Project website at the page http://www.mozartproject.org/compositions/ko_81_85.html says that the piece was conceived between 1781 and 1783 in either Munich or Vienna (along with K.330 and K.331). Therefore, the information on this page is inconsistent.

Also, I don't see why there should be a description for the first two movements but nothing for the third.

ICE77 (talk) 04:47, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

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• Mozart; Piano Sonata No. 12, I. Allegro.ogg (discussion)
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• Mozart; Piano Sonata No. 12, III. Allegro assai.ogg (discussion)

Participate in the deletion discussions at the nomination pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:52, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Mozart; Piano Sonata No. 12, I. Allegro.ogg
• Mozart; Piano Sonata No. 12, II. Adagio.ogg
• Mozart; Piano Sonata No. 12, III. Allegro assai.ogg

You can see the reasons for deletion at the file description pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:23, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

"Sonatina form"

"The second movement is in B-flat major in an elaborately ornamented sonatina form."

What the heck does that mean? I have a Doctorate in music, taught music courses at the college level for a couple of decades and have never heard of a "sonatina form" applied to one movement. Furthermore, the link to "sonatina" does not mention the form of a single movement, only the form of an entire sonatina. I'm guessing the implication is that this movement is in the form described in Sonatina#Form as follows:

"The first (or only) movement is generally in an abbreviated sonata form, with little or no development of the themes...[T]he exposition is followed immediately by a brief bridge passage to modulate back to the home key for the recapitulation."

This is not described in the article as "sonatina form," though, and the movement sounds like a fairly simple 2-part A-B-A1-B1-coda song form to me. The fact that B1 is in the tonic doesn't make it a quasi-sonata form. The way I see it, the rhetoric of the sonata form requires some kind of contrasting/development section, however mild or truncated.

In addition, there's no citation for this sentence. So what should we do about that? Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:01, 16 June 2022 (UTC)