Talk:Piano Sonata No. 11 (Mozart)

Movement Title

I just changed "Minuetto" and "Marcia alla Turca" back to "Menuetto" and "Rondo alla Turca", which is how it was before and how it is in my version of the sheet music. However, my edition isn't a great one, and if there's an Urtext or something which gives "Minuetto" and "Marcia", then that's what we should say, of course (though probably with a note that "Rondo", while common, is actually wrong). --Camembert

WRONG.... the rondo is the third movmt so it should be called "Rondo Alla Turka(turca)"

• The Term Marcia and Alla Turca are basically synonymous. They both mean march. Alla Turca is a Turkish March. So Marcia alla Turca is Turkish March March.

  [Per history, contrib on 21:58, 16 June 2005 from User:71.32.2.252. Text preserved, but refactored by 'graphs by Jerzy·t 30 June 2005 02:04 (UTC).]

  • Uh, the two words are Italian. "Alla" means "in the manner of". "Turca" means "[the] Turk". The reference is to the real or fancied resemblence to the marches of the Ottoman janissaries, something of a fascination in Austria (or central and western Europe) at the time. So yes, standing alone in a musical context, "Alla Turca" would have then and may still be understood as implying either a march or something connected to a march. But "Marcia" and "Alla Turca" were and are far from "basically synonymous". (Notably since one means march and the could other apply only to Turkish and pseudo-Turkish marches, but more to the point:) The suggestion that "Marcia alla Turca" is wrong because it is as redundant as "Turkish March March" is absurd: "Yankees" implies "New York Yankees", but that doesn't make "New York Yankees" mean "New York New York Yankees"! The extent of redundancy in "Marcia alla Turca" is merely a matter of being complete enough to make clear to the less well informed that the Turkish style of march (rather than dance, seranade, or hookah-trance music) is being invoked. (And to rule out, for the more clearly thinking, its being what "Alla Turca" could equally well describe (to choose an example at random [wink]), a rondo reminiscent of a Turkish march.)

  "Marcia alla Turca" is wrong here (see below), but not for that reason.

  --Jerzy·t 30 June 2005 02:04 (UTC)

• Yes, urtexts need apply only at the afterthot window. The criterion in this case is the commonly accepted name, "Rondo alla Turca".

If someone wants to mention that it was "Marcia alla Turca" on the original autograph manuscript, or on the copyist's fair copy for the publisher, or on the publisher's engraving for the first edition, or whatever, they can boldly edit it in below the list of the common-sense names of the movements. (But avoid the unencyclopedically vague language "actually wrong".)

--Jerzy·t 30 June 2005 02:04 (UTC)

Rondo or March?

I changed the bolded common name to "Turkish Rondo" from "Turkish March" - because isn't the piece most commonly known (in the English speaking world, anyway) as the "Turkish March" an actual march piece by Beethoven? Ellsworth 22:49, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Brubeck

Is Brubeck's "Blue Rondo a la Turk" really a version of this? It's clearly inspired by it, but it's a stretch to say that they're essentially the same piece... Ellsworth 22:56, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

• Brubeck's "Blue Rondo a la Turk" is inspired, but not a version. Brubeck actually borrowed the name because his band was touring in Turkey when they composed it, and he also used the Traditional Turkish meter or 9/8.

  [Per history, contrib on 21:58, 16 June 2005 from User:71.32.2.252. Text preserved, but refactored by 'graphs by Jerzy·t 30 June 2005 02:04 (UTC).]

  • Presumably "the Traditional Turkish meter or 9/8" means "9/8, a traditional Turkish meter".

  It's hard to imagine Brubeck just happened to choose such a closely analogous title: surely he knew of the Mozart title. But describing a clever but straighforward choice of title as "inspired" is unnecessary and confusing.

  Boldly edited in instead:

  Jazz musician Dave Brubeck named his own famous Turkish-influenced work with a nearly parallel title, "Blue Rondo a la Turk".

  --Jerzy·t 30 June 2005 02:04 (UTC)

ah, no

Rondo

Civilization 2...

I seem to remember that this piece was used in Sid Meier's Civilization II as the theme for the Germans... should this be added as "Trivia"?

Hello, anonymous - Well, it would seem that this is a fact not about the rondo, but about Civilization II. Why not enter it there? Be sure to confirm your observation first; it would really be bad to put something into an encyclopedia if you only "seem to remember" it.

I hope this helps. Opus33 01:06, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

In popular culture section?

Should there be one? After all, if nothing else it is in the Truman Show (at least the third bit). Very famous piece.18:39, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

It's also one of the musics in Lemmings; coincidentally, the music for Level 11, the same number as the sonata. 91.105.62.65 11:59, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

authorship comment reverted

I removed this edit because it was uncited: "Some say that that the last section of the sonata was added by Mozart's student, Sussymayer." This is too popular and familiar a piece to insert such a bold statement in a "some say that" manner. If it turns out this is true, we'll need a citation. Thanks.DavidRF (talk) 16:58, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Imporvisation in the piece.

Is not there an imporvisation part or something in the piece and several vertions of it, I think something should be mentioned about it.

I've never heard of that. The official NMA score is linked. Provide a movement and measure number for the part you are talking about.DavidRF (talk) 19:05, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Allegrino

I have the Wiener Urtext Edition of this piece and it lists the tempo of the third movement as "Allegrino". According to the critical notes that's how it appears in the original edition. - Gus ^{(T, C)}2010-10-20 01:34Z

Key of final movement

I changed this from A major to A minor (in which it opens) and major (in which it ends). Kostaki mou (talk) 00:09, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Homotonal? Statement in lead

The lead says "All of the movements are in the key of A major or A minor." Is this strictly correct? The movements all start in A, but the trio in the minuet and trio of the second movement is in D major. --Wikitoov (talk) 11:25, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, its correct. A movement's key is the one that's established in the initial part of the form... not the one in the trio, development, introduction, etc.DavidRF (talk) 02:40, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

In Hip-Hop

This piece is sampled by the rapper Busdriver in the song 'Me Time (With The pulmonary palimpsest)'--122.106.118.226 (talk) 02:22, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Questionable link between Rondo and variations in 1st movement.

Referring to this:

The third movement is related to the first one, because its beginning can be seen as an additional variation of the theme of the first movement, varied in the Janissary style.

I simply don't think it's true, and I can see nothing in the music that supports it. Can I just remove this?

The main argument against regarding the first theme of the Rondo as a variation of the Theme in the first movement is that the first half of the Rondo theme clearly moves to the dominant key (E minor) and ends there, whereas the corresponding section in the variation Theme ends in the tonic (A major, and A minor in the minor-key variation). Other modulations, such as those in the second half of the respective themes, do not correspond, either - not even when you consider the minor-key variation, this being the one you'd expect to have the closest relationship with the minor-key Rondo theme.

To my mind, unless someone can show compelling correspondences between the two themes I've somehow missed, these two themes are not particularly related at all.

Another thing is that, at this time in musical history, it was quite uncommon for links between separate movements of a sonata or symphony to be put in. Beethoven made a tentative step in this direction occasionally, but it was mainly later composers like Liszt, Franck, Saint-Saens, Scriabin, and lots of late romantics, who did this in a big way - not Mozart or others of his era.

So I'm tempted to remove this remark, and will consider whether to or not. Does anyone object? M.J.E. (talk) 08:23, 26 March 2013 (UTC)