Talk:Philippine Spanish

Pronunciation of ll

Pronunciation of caballo as kabayo and cebollas as sibuyas is not entirely correct. This pronunciation of ll as y is only found in Tagalog and Bisayan languages. In Ilokano, caballo is kabalyo and in Bikol and Ilokano, cebollas is sibulyas.

Contradictions

This page is a mess. Apparently the dialect of Spanish spoken in the Philippines is acquired by children by watching Dora the Explorer. Does that mean that it is really a 2nd language? My impression is that as of 2016 Spanish is virtually absent from the country and I see no evidence here to counter that, in fact the Elcano source seems to confirm this. Tell me what to do about this page. --Jotamar (talk) 17:16, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Wikepedia as you probably already know is at the mercy of its writers; many of its writers don’t have integrity in mind. Hispanophiles would do anything even at the expense of integrity. Same thing they did in Wikipedia Spanish Language in the Philippines --99.141.208.2 (talk) 09:48, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Celebrities?

Do Pilita Corrales, Ian Veneración and Marian Rivera speak Spanish? --Shanghaijim (talk) 16:14, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Pilia Corrales does speak Spanish; Jackie Lou,her daughter, does tooBuhayPinoy (talk) 02:45, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

Close to disappearing

I've deleted the Citation needed tag which affected this statement: the dialect has lost most of its speakers and it might be now close to disappearing. My reasons to delete the tag are:

• It was added by an IP editor.
• I've been looking for such a citation and I've found nothing that explicitly says that; however, many sources seem to indirectly confirm the statement, and, even more important, what we really need is a source confirming that the dialect is still spoken, which doesn't seem to exist either.

If any editor is not happy about my deletion, please discuss it here. --Jotamar (talk) 17:21, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Merger

See discussion at Is this actually a separate variety of Chinese? which has the same reasoning as the merge done here. There are no reliable sources specifically describing "Philippine Spanish" as a separate variety of language. The sources only describe the use and education of Spanish in the Philippines. The claims of phonological differences were entirely unsourced. — MarkH21 (talk) 20:25, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Philippine Spanish is a regulated language. It is a recognized and distinct language officially regulated by the Academia Filipina de la Lengua Española. It is recognized as a Spanish dialect. It is distinct topic and cannot be merged until proven to the contrary. 98.153.5.170 (talk) 15:36, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

None of these sources say that this is a distinct dialect. They mention Spanish as a language spoken in the Philippines and give statistics for the number of Spanish speakers in the Philippines, which is thoroughly discussed at Spanish language in the Philippines and not the same. All of the material here is either WP:OR or about Spanish in the Philippines without distinction as a separate dialect.

We would need a reliable source that directly says something like It is recognized as a Spanish dialect for it to be separate from Spanish language in the Philippines. — MarkH₂₁^talk 18:56, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Your contention is not valid. It is recognized by the experts at the Spanish Academy which you are not. Until you get a contrary opinion from other expertsI and the gathering of more sources and consensus this page should not never have be merged and the status quo should therefore be maintained. I will revert this page and do not falsely accuse me again of edit warring and abuse your authority. This page has existed a long time even before your assertions. 98.153.5.170 (talk) 16:18, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Again, you need a reliable source that says that this is a distinct variety of Spanish. The existence of a linguistic academy (unlicensed in this case) doesn't say that. Take for example, the North American Academy of the Spanish Language. It is an academy for the use of Spanish in the United States, but its existence does not assert that there is a dialect of Spanish unique to the United States. Similarly, the Philippine Academy of the Spanish Language is an academy for the use of Spanish language in the Philippines.

Your continued reverting of the page, even after the redirect was restored by other editors, is edit warring by definition. But my post on your talk page was a notice, alerting you and warning you about edit warring and the three revert rule, in case you were not already aware. — MarkH₂₁^talk 10:38, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Proposal to recover this page

This page about the Philippine dialect of Spanish was turned into a redirect in November 2019, for reasons never really explained. Perhaps the rationale was that there are very few speakers left of this dialect, but we don't know. In any case, the dialect had at its heyday perhaps as many as several million regular speakers, and in my opinion it deserves its own page, especially since I don't see any part of the original page copied to the redirected page. --Jotamar (talk) 14:53, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

The reasoning is described both in the section immediately above this, as well as in the same reasoning as Talk:Mandarin_Chinese_in_the_Philippines#Is this actually a separate variety of Chinese?. There are no reliable sources that say that Philippine Spanish is actually a separate dialect. All of the existing RSes only described the instruction and use of Spanish language in the Philippines, but not as a separate dialect. Here is some of the (actually referenced) material that was moved over.

If you can find RSes that actually document Philippine Spanish as a formally separate dialect, then by all means we should recreate this article. — MarkH₂₁^talk 15:03, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Ok, I missed the previous discussion. I was probably too busy at the time, and it didn't help that the redirection was carried out the same day in which the discussion was opened. I have found one source in English by John Lipski: Contemporary Philippine Spanish .... There should be at least some sources in Spanish too. --Jotamar (talk) 16:44, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Ah, that's a good one! I'll look for some too; we'll need more than one RS. — MarkH₂₁^talk 16:59, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Several weeks have gone by, and nothing new appears. In my opinion, one single reliable source is enough to recover the page. If nobody is against it, I'll recover the original contents in a few days. --Jotamar (talk) 20:52, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

@Jotamar: One RS is not typically enough, per WP:GNG. Most of the previous material wouldn’t be recovered anyways as it was entirely WP:OR. If a new RS is found, the article should only contain material actually from the RSes. — MarkH₂₁^talk 20:55, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

I'm quite sure there are more reliable sources about this, written in Spanish and in printed form. However, right now it's difficult for me to track them. I don't think postponing indefinitely the recovery of the page is a good idea. --Jotamar (talk) 21:04, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

There is no deadline or rush. Once we find another reliable source, we can build an article from it.

A book here (End of note 2) actually discusses the study and potential distinction of non-creole Philippine Spanish, but the only source mentioned is the Lipski article that you already linked. The cited French-language Quilis source might say something about it as well though.

I found access to the Quilis source here, but one has to make sure that it is actually describing a non-Creole variety of Spanish that is also distinct from other varieties of Spanish. As the discussion on page 87 delineates between its focus on langues mixtes (mixed languages and creoles like Chavacano) and langues mélangées (which may include dialects and creoles as well). The latter would be the part to focus on. — MarkH₂₁^talk 21:10, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi, folks (tagging Jotamar and MarkH21). This proposal has been pretty dormant for the last three years, so I took the liberty of redoing the article as part of a long-running discussion on Commons over including the Philippines on linguistic maps of Spanish that we use on Wikipedia (discussion here). It's not done just yet (I intend to do some additional research once I return to Spain, including getting my hands on a copy of La lengua española en Filipinas by Antonio Quilis and Celia Casado-Fresnillo, which talks about Philippine Spanish extensively), but it's significantly more sourced than the previous version of the article, and I took pains to make sure that the sources in question specifically mention Philippine Spanish (the dialect) as opposed to Chavacano, though features of the two languages overlap. I look forward to continuing work on this article as time allows and as we encounter more sources. --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 00:58, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Bruxton (talk) 01:35, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

Emilio Aguinaldo, President of the Philippines, delivering a speech in Spanish

• ... that estimates for the number of Philippine Spanish speakers vary widely from the thousands to the millions? Source: "El número de hispanoparlantes en Filipinas varía mucho, según las fuentes, y oscila entre los cuatro millones y unos pocos miles..." ("The number of Spanish speakers in the Philippines varies a lot, according to the sources, and oscillates between four million and a few thousand...") --Andrés Barrenechea, 2013
  • ALT1: ... that while Philippine Spanish has been described as moribund, a new generation of speakers has also emerged? Source: "Following the American occupation of the Philippines, the Spanish language has lost ground constantly, and what remains of Spanish is clearly a marginal and vestigial language, which has already embarked on the inexorable path ultimately leading to language death." --Lipski, 1986 / "Aunque existe una nueva generación de hispanistas, que a pesar de que no son hispanohablantes nativos, están enseñando a sus hijos dicho idioma en casa, pero es un número muy reducido." ("Although a new generation of Spanish speakers exists, despite not being native Spanish speakers, they are teaching said language to their children at home, but it is a very reduced number.") --Andrés Barrenechea, 2013
  • ALT2: ... that Philippine Spanish is a language and not a creole? Source: "The small number of native Spanish speakers in the Philippines has contributed to the lack of studies of contemporary Philippine Spanish [...] At times, the latter [Philippine Creole Spanish; Chavacano] dialects are mistakenly referred to as 'Philippine Spanish', as though there were no legitimate non-creolized variant of metropolitan Spanish currently available in the Philippines." --Lipski, 1986
  • Reviewed: Pimlico tube station
  • Comments: I am open to replacing the video with something else if it's not appropriate to have a video in this section.

Converted from a redirect by Sky Harbor (talk). Self-nominated at 23:48, 14 April 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Philippine Spanish; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Approve all three hooks. I personally found ALT1 more interesting than others. BorgQueen (talk) 16:28, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

@BorgQueen and Sky Harbor: Regarding ALT1 - specifically why are we piping Endangered language? It is more accessible as an un-piped link. I will promote it as Endangered language and discussion can continue on the DYK talk page. Bruxton (talk) 01:34, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

• • ALT1a: ... that while Philippine Spanish has been described as an Endangered language, a new generation of speakers has emerged? Bruxton (talk) 01:34, 17 May 2023 (UTC)