Talk:Percival Gull

Designer

The infobox shows R.H Bound as designer with Jackson 1960 as a reference. The 1974 edition has a correction and says designed solely by Edgar Percival. MilborneOne (talk) 18:05, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I've corrected the infobox and the text. I don't have the details of that later edition, but think it would be well worth including as an inline so that others do not get misled by the earlier version as I was. Since you have it, maybe you could have a quick look to see what else, if anything has changed. Does he come up with an engine for the P.1D; there's nothing in the 1960 ed.

He makes no mention of the P numbers other than to say as the system was not devised until 1947 and therefore have no place here because they were non-existant during the lifetime of the these aeroplanes ! MilborneOne (talk) 19:19, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Bit of original research! all D.2s

• Hermes IV powered D.22,24 and 26 which is three and agrees with P.1A
• Javelin powered D.21,28,29.30,33,34,40 and 44 which is eight and agrees with P.1B
• Gipsy Major powered D.23,25,27,31,32,35,36,37,38,39,42,45,51 which is 13 which doesnt to agree with P.1C but could be right if the P.1D was also Gipsy Major powered and the change was something else, just a guess.
• One Cirrus Major I a/c was D.53 which was later changed to a Gipsy Major.MilborneOne (talk) 19:32, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Good stuff! Don't think there is any disagreement here. Your guess is right, I think, as the two P.1D's (modified canopies and u/c) were G-ACUL and G-AGDK, respectively D.45 and D.51, both in your Gipsy Major list. I've not seen any suggestion that they were re-engined when the mods were made so will put P1.D engine as GM.

Blackburn's Cirrus Major powered G-ADOE was re-engined after the war with a GM.TSRL (talk) 10:31, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Number built

I'm also slightly concerned about the numbers built. For sure there were 38 (allowing for rebuilt Fours to Sixes) on the British register, but the c/ns indicate at least 8 more, perhaps sold directly abroad. In his text, AJJ (1960) says 24 by {Parnall and 22 at Gravesend, though he may get this from the c/ns likewise.TSRL (talk) 19:03, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I have 48 not 38. 1 x D.1, 28 x D.2, 18 x D.3s and one D.3 with an open cockpit.

• 1 x D.1 is D.20 the prototype G-ABUR
• 28 x D.2s are D.21(G-ACAL), 22(G-ABUV), 23(G-ACFJ), 24(G-ACAT), 25(G-ACGC), 26(G-ACFY), 27(G-ACLG), 28(G-ACGP), 29(G-ACGR), 30(G-ACHA), 31(G-ACHM), 32(G-ACHT), 33(G-ACIP), 34(G-ACIR), 35(G-ACIS), 36(G-ACJP), 37(G-ACJR), 38(G-ACJW), 39(G-ACJV), 40(G-ACLJ), 41(Not known), 42(G-ACXY), 43(Not known), 44(G-ACPA), 45(G-ACUL), 51(G-ADGK), 53(G-ADOE) and 57(VH-UVH).
• 18 x D.3s are D.46 (G-ACUP), 47(G-ACYS), 48(G-ADEU), 49(G-ADEP), 50(G-ADFA), 52(G-ADKX), 54(G-ADMI), 55(G-ADPR), 58(G-ADSG), 59(G-ADSM), 60(VH-UVA), 61(Not known),62(Not known), 63(G-ADZO), 64(ZS-AHD), 65(HB-OFU), 66(Not known), 67(ZS-AKI)
• The one open cockpit D.3 is D.56(VT.AGV).

Right! I'll add these to the table. I see I miscounted the original D.3s: there were 11 on AJJs list, not 12. Your list ads another 8. Looking at the c/ns, we now have just two missing (D.56 and D.57) in the run from D.20 to D.67. Wonder what happened there? I don't suppose there is any sub-type etc info on the 2 "not known" reg D.2s, D.41 and D.43? Happily VH-UVH has its photo on the web and is a P.1D; it's also recorded as having a GM.

Going cross eyed! D.56 &57 are not missing and we have the set!TSRL (talk) 12:25, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Also I have only three a/c converted with the Gipsy Six D.30(G-ACHA), D.42(G-ACXY) and D.44(G-ACPA) not four as listed in article. MilborneOne (talk) 19:16, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

On last point (still counting the others), Jackson's 1960 list of conversions is 'HA, 'PA, 'UL and 'XY. According to G-INFO, 'PA was the Gull Six D.44 ('PY was a Dragon - typo?) so 'UL is the contended one. G-INFO has it as D.45 Gull Six and in your list it's down as a D.2, so I reckon AJJs right in saying 4 conversions. Cheers,TSRL (talk) 10:52, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry my typo D44 is PA, I will correct above, I will have a look later when I am back home at Jackson 1974 to see what it says about ACUL.MilborneOne (talk) 12:18, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes it says ACUL was fitted with a Gipsy Six sometime before its flight to New Zealand. MilborneOne (talk) 17:01, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

There is a suggestion, no more than that in GoldenYears that D.62 may have been VT-AKY, Indian Gov.TSRL (talk) 14:15, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Rudder balance

According to Jane's AWA 1938, the rudder on the Gull was horn balanced, but such a feature is certainly not obvious in any photo I've seen; the rudder leading edge looks straight all the way. Maybe it's subtler than that. Jackson (British Civil Aircraft 1st ed) leads the Gull article with a pic of G-ABUR captioned in part "..with early unbalanced rudder during early trials " but it looks to me just like the rudders of all other Gulls. There are also two images of G-ABUR in Ellison's book (Percivals Aircraft) on p.9: one shows the same image as Jackson, saying it'sG-ABUR after modification with the standard fin & rudder (which sounds right) and an earlier one showing the prototype with a distinctly different fin which he describes as "Henderson-like". The tail is a bit overexposed to see detail, but it looks rather as if it had a horn balance at that time. Certainly Henderson's Hendy 302A has a similar looking vertical tail which was horn balanced. So is the reality that the Gull started with a horn balanced rudder but soon lost it, contrary to what both Jane's and Jackson say? Anyone know?TSRL (talk) 15:43, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Jackson had changed his mind! the 1974 caption to lead image of G-ABUR just says The prototype Gull G-ABUR during early trials. MilborneOne (talk) 17:40, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

He seems to have done a lot of that! I incline to thinks Jane's got it wrong, too; maybe their description of the tail surfaces was based on old data set on the early prototype, even though they are clearly describing the Moth-Major. The photographic evidence is pretty conclusive, given the similarity of the early fin to that of the Heny 302, even though the scanned and gamma enhanced image won't directly yield the line of the rudder leading edge.TSRL (talk) 19:59, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Jane's was correct folks! Have a look at Aeroplane Monthly, January 1983 issue, p.7. You will find a picture from 'The Aeroplane' of G-ABUR with a horn balanced rudder ! --93.2.235.17 (talk) 13:21, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I think the article is right and Jane's had not updated from the time when the prototype had the Hendy fin. I guess one could read Jackson's first para as meaning even in some early trials, an unbalanced rudder had already been fitted in place of the still earlier balanced one, though it's a bit of a stretch. Still, as MilborneOne notes, Jackson later changed the caption, possibly as part of his revisions to all his Percival entries after being leant on by Percival (cf Harwood's articles in The Aeroplane, June/July 1994). I did not have these at the time I did a bit of editing and started this discussion item, but Harwood has clear images of G-ABUR at the King's Cup with early, balanced fin and a mid-1932 shot with the unbalanced one (the same shot as used by Jackson with the variable caption). There is a 3-way diagram of the Gull with the early rudder there too. He doesn't say much more in the text, but perhaps it is a better ref on the change than the page in Ellinson I quoted. I'll add it.TSRL (talk) 19:13, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

There's also a close-up of the fin and rudder, with balance and Kings Cup J marking, in the Flight article at here.TSRL (talk) 19:31, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Air-Britain Archives "The Whole Truth-Percival Gull" has the prototype with a rudder (influenced by Basil Henderson and the Hendy 302) it also indicates some of the images of G-ABUR were "altered" to show the unbalanced rudder used on production machines. MilborneOne (talk) 19:39, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Percival trying to remove the spirit (or relish) of Henderson? Trotsky had the same experience! Was the one in Jackson with the caption variation one of these? Think I'll get the AB CDs.TSRL (talk) 20:07, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Well worth it - although I still have piles of the original magazines. MilborneOne (talk) 20:16, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

First flight

Cannot be 8 July 1932 as King's Cup race started that date! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.2.235.17 (talk) 13:15, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

First mention of Gull in list of King's Cup entries: Flight 8 April 1932. G-ABUR registered 3 July 1932, (Appleton 1986). BTW, health warning about Jane's - it was just a few "journalists" often working from freebie PR blurb, even in 1930s. PeterWD (talk) 14:17, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

With those references in hand, perhaps, alter the date in the article. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 14:21, 7 October 2011 (UTC).

Are we saying the first flight could be any date between the 3rd and the 8th? MilborneOne (talk) 16:10, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Not found a date yet but G-ABUR was flying by March 1932 when it was tested at Martlesham Heath it had been first registered in February 1932. The Certificate of Airworthiness was issued on 30 June 1932 and re-registered to E.W.Percival on 3 July 1932. No first flight date yet but clearly not July 1932. MilborneOne (talk) 16:52, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Part 1 of the Aeroplane article by Ian Harwood (June 1994) says on p.72 " The prototype Gull was first mentioned and pictured in the press among the new types entered for the 1932 race, but few details were released until after that event, to avoid giving anything away that might help the handicappers. Consequently, the date of the Gull's flight is not known. However, it was flown quite extensively before the race, and even seriously damaged in a forced landing, though this was not publicised at the time." So we may not get an exact date. Be worth adding a line or two on the Martlesham tests/residence, though.TSRL (talk) 17:29, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Ord Hume, in British light aeroplanes 1920-1940 does not give a date but says the first flight was at West Maling. He also has a little about the pre-Cup (Percival piloting) and the rebuild in the three weeks before the Cup.TSRL (talk) 18:44, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Transatlantic flight

Didn't Beryl Markham fly a Percival Gull across the atlantic? I believe it was the first East-to-West flight across the pond. If so, it should be included here.98.170.214.134 (talk) 22:12, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

No as it was actually a Percival Vega Gull and by the way she was the first solo woman not the first person to do the crossing. MilborneOne (talk) 22:25, 23 January 2013 (UTC)