Talk:Paul Scholes

Comment

Just read a comment that Geoff Hurst and Clive Mendonca were the only players to score hat tricks at the old Wembley, but did Scholes not score a hat trick against Poland in 1999.

Paul 'A Very Class Player' Scholes This is awful, I'm changing this. There is seriously too much crap editing of all footballer pages Johntinsley 21:49, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Now aged 30, he still has a good few years left at the top and will surely add more medals to his already impressive collection.

I don't like that sentence, even though I'm a big fan of the man myself. It smacks of subjectivity and invites criticism from neutrals IMHO. Would it be okay if I changed it? kelvinhole

Definitely. There's stuff in the guidelines about this as Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_terms. CTOAGN 09:27, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Playing Style

It annoys me that the only thing mentioned in his playing style is discipline. Surely his passing and vision of the game are worth mentioning? People don't realise he is the most accurate passer in the Premier League (confirmed by Opta) 77.96.158.181 (talk) 17:29, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, ive just edited that section.

other people can find citations if need be, or adjust things to make my playing style comments more accurate, but if it is deleted ill be really peeved off —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dbc06 (talk • contribs) 23:16, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Okay ive added a 'style of play' section and have contributed citations to back them up. if somebody removes that section i will be really annoyed. it is not subjective at all, and needs to be addressed. his page in comparison to other top footballers stinks of 'average'. Why should Cesc Fabregas have a 'style of play' section and not the great Scholes? DO NOT REMOVE IT otherwise i will seriously get annoyed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dbc06 (talk • contribs) 21:41, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Quotes

Should there be a section for quotes about Paul Scholes? Like "The best player is Paul Scholes, without a doubt. You get tough games in the Premiership but playing against Scholesy in training is the hardest thing you’ll face in football. His touch, imagination and vision for passes is amazing, and he scores goals for fun from just about anywhere on the pitch.", source Darren Fletcher's interview in www.manutd.com, URL: http://www.manutd.com/default.sps?pagegid=%7B79A08487%2DFD7F%2D455F%2D8553%2DD25CE87F047A%7D&newsid=368447

Also Steven Gerrard's biography has some nice words about Scholes, surprisingly.

Can you get more quotes? If not for a section here then for WikiQuote. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Whilding87 (talk • contribs) 11:53, 6 January 2007 (UTC).

IMO yes, he is one of (if not the) most rated English player around the world. There are quotes from Beckham, ZZ and Lippi on how good Paul Scholes is, I'll pull some together. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.70.96.92 (talk) 18:29, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Agree with this entirely, simply because there are so many quotes by top class players and managers. Take a look at this for examples... quotes about Paul Scholes —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ncgg (talk • contribs) 15:12, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I have no problem with quotes being gathered together, but they must not be added to this article. Add them to WikiQuote by all means, but not here. – PeeJay 16:00, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Goal Diary

Should these pages really be updated everytime he scores a goal? That isn't really the point is it.

No. And it's something everyone needs to avoid, in all footballer articles. Whilding87 11:38, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

What about a stats table like the ones Frank Lampard and Steven Gerrard currently have? Teso Dos Bichos 18:33, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Birthplace

According to this article and Oldham that's where he was born but according to Manchester United offical site (and others) he was born in Hope Hospital, Pendleton, Salford postcode area M6 (Pendleton). CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 23:32, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

He was born in Hope Hospital (now known as Salford Royal Hospital), Pendleton (M6), City of Salford (current city since 1st April 1974) This is the correct term fore the place in 'Salford' he was born, 'Salford, Greater Manchester' (wrong) refers to original (not Pendleton, Broughton etc) Salford (M3) near the Irwell (right bank) opposite Manchester city centre.

1.7 metres tall?

NPOV Dispute

I removed one statement which may have constituted for NPOV, but I can't find any more evidence of such writing. Could whoever added the tag backup their reasons or point out further points? Whilding87 11:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Appearances

On the "Personal Information" section it states that he has 377 appearances, this is completely wrong as he has over 500 appearances, as stated in the "later career" subtitle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.40.10.254 (talk) 20:35, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I am guessing the personal information only counts Premier League games and not FA Cup/Carling Cup/Champions League etc.. games Xkingoftheworldx (talk) 11:59, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

And now it says over 700? I am confused... do the numbers add up? -- Joedf (talk) 19:09, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

@Joedf: You realise you just replied to an 11-year-old comment? Yes, the numbers add up. – PeeJay 20:11, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

@PeeJay2K3: Thanks, didn't see that. However, I am curious to know as to why the career tables totals are always lower numbers? e.g. 499 in the table, but the text says 700. Am I misunderstanding something? where is the rest? Same goes for Ryan Giggs... Non-club appearances? Let me know, thanks :) -- Joedf (talk) 20:17, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

The infobox (on the right) only counts league appearances. – PeeJay 21:07, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

Trust Oldham patron?

There was a statement under "Trivia" saying that Paul Scholes was a member of Trust Oldham, and it had a link to their website. I couldn't find Paul Scholes' name on that website at all, and I therefore removed that line. Please be sure to cite a page that clearly states his connection with that group, because otherwise, it comes across as mere speculation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.19.36.35 (talk) 03:56, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

UEFA Champions League titles

Has he won one or two Champions League titles? I would say he's only won one, as he was not involved in the final in 1999. Same goes for Gary Neville, who was involved in 1999, but not 2008. – PeeJay 09:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

http://www.uefa.com/newsfiles/19071.pdf

Medals 4.03 Thirty gold medals are presented to the winning club, and 30 silver medals to the runner-up. Additional medals may not be produced.

Although players who are not in the 25-man squad do not receive their medals at the ceremony, they certainly receive them at a later date, so I would say Scholes and Neville have both won two titles. 68.42.110.139 (talk) 22:05, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

The fact is that the club can distribute those medals any way they wish, so whether or not Scholes and Neville were given medals is irrelevant, IMO. Usually, I would say that only the matchday squad (starting XI and subs) should be given the distinction of having the competition listed amongst their honours. The disadvantage of this is that it is immensely unfair on players like Scholes in 1999 or Park Ji-Sung this season, in that they played integral roles in getting the team to the final, yet played no part in the final match itself. Nevertheless, it is not Wikipedia's place to decide what is fair and what is not. – PeeJay 11:33, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

If a player has received a winners medal they could reasonably be said to be a winner of that competition and therefore have in amoungst their honours. I have a feeling that Keane, SCohle and Berg all got winners medals in 1999 and therefore should be included here in personal honours. (Statto999 (talk) 14:26, 28 May 2008 (UTC))

You "have a feeling" that Keane, Scholes and Berg got medals? Well, I'm sorry, but that's just not good enough. We need hard evidence that they got medals. Until then, we cannot, in good conscience, say that Scholes has won two Champions League titles. – PeeJay 22:40, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok so perhaps not the most verifiable source!! have a look on your champions of europe dvd possibly??? I'll get back to you when/if I find something. TTFN (Statto999 (talk) 11:16, 29 May 2008 (UTC))

ok try "In the Nou Camp that night Paul and i were very reluctant to respond when urged forward by the manager to pick up our medals.Yes we played a part ....... but the night belonged to the lads on the pitch ." from Roy keane's autobiography. as quoted on http://forum.football365.com/index.php?t=msg&goto=2085144&#msg_2085144 I don't have a copy to hand at present so I'll only update the main when I can see for certain. (Statto999 (talk) 14:05, 29 May 2008 (UTC))

"Manchester United can field five players with CL final experience. However, six players have won the competition. Ryan Giggs and Gary Neville were part of the team that beat Bayern Munich in 1999. Paul Scholes was suspended for the final and Wes Brown was on the bench, but both received winners medals. Edwin van der Sar reached the final with Ajax in 1995 and 1996, winning the first one. Owen Hargreaves won the 2001 competition with Bayern Munich and Patrice Evra lost the 2004 final with AS Monaco." BBC Sport Monday May 19th —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.105.133.79 (talk) 16:22, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Look. The guy played in all the rounds except for the final and picked up a winners medal. In the past non-finalists didn't medal but in the modern day they do and did in 1999. If Scholes has a winners medal he can't realistically be considered as not winning in 1999. The Champions League is over 13 games not one. see http://www.footballdatabase.com/index.php?page=player&Id=152&b=true&pn=Paul_Scholes I've updated the main article to include 1999. (User123418 (talk) 19:37, 29 May 2008 (UTC))

You can add it back when you provide a definite source that he is/was in possession of a 1999 UEFA medal. Until such time, do not bother adding it. ¢rassic! (talk) 19:58, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

see http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/article1114846.ece 'There is a safe in which his England caps, his European Cup medal, his FA Cup and Premiership gongs and the other baubles of his career sit “locked away”. He shrugs. “Occasionally, my family want to have a look at them, but I don’t bother.” ' —Preceding unsigned comment added by Statto999 (talk • contribs) 21:48, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

The 1999 Champions League should be listed here as Scholes accepted a medal. Peejay I'm not sure why you keep bringing this up again and again. Your argument was first that he was suspended from the final and then that he refused a medal. The receipt of a medal has been referenced from Keane's autobiography, The Times and the BBC as well as being on your Champions of Europe Dvd (which you no doubt watch repeatedly) that Scholes did pick up a medal in 1999. If he turned down a medal are you suggesting that Avram Grant wasn't a CL runner up as he threw his medal into the crowd? or that Mourhino only won the Premier League once as he also threw his second winner's medal into the crowd? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Statto999 (talk • contribs) 00:40, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Google works wonders... From CBS, "Veteran Scholes finally picks up Champions League medal with Man United". This story from The Independent also has a bit on it, "Paul Scholes: When I go I will miss football, not the life of a footballer". And, Rediff.com, "Scholes finally gets his medal". All, of course, basically saying he does not have two. –  LATICS  talk  00:48, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Latics. You're a lot more courtesous than some others. Ok so I have read yoursources "Paul Scholes: When I go I will miss football, not the life of a footballer". "Although he was awarded a winners' medal following United's triumph against Bayern Munich at the Nou Camp in 1999, suspension robbed him of the opportunity to play against the Germans, so the box marked "Champions League winner" remained unticked in Scholes' mind." So your reference states that he has a medal and that only in his mind is he not a winner in 1999. There was an awful lot of misinformation written post May 2008 about Scholes medal collection. Poor journalism IMHO. (EDIT in reference to your other 2 sources)

Anyway my points are this 1) Not playing in a final doesn't mean that you aren't a winner of that competition (I note that you are not trying to correct either Keane's or Berg's medal collection for the same reason) 2) We have now both sited sources that state he did collect a medal in 1999 or at least was eligible for one. I fail to see how winner's medal eligibility/ collection can translate as not winning the competition. Regards —Preceding unsigned comment added by Statto999 (talk • contribs) 01:12, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm a bit confused about the whole deal, as Ferguson even said he did not collect one in 1999 in the CBS story. "The disappointment of '99 has gone now for him," United manager Alex Ferguson said. "He's achieved what he should have achieved in '99 -- a winner's medal." Hoping some other users will shed some light on the whole situation. –  LATICS  talk  01:22, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Though are people allowed to declare themselfs non-winners? If you've won, isn't it only UEFA who can strip someone of that win? — CHANDLER^#10 — 01:25, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Struggling Lately

Last season Scholes only had 2 goals, on paper that's a season low. Michael 20:44, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Scholes' contribution amounts to more than just goals. – PeeJay 11:09, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah well, I'm just saying. Besides, I don't remember seeing him play at all this season, not that I care. – Michael 22:56, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Quote in introduction

"Rio Ferdinand and Alex Ferguson consider Scholes to be Manchester United's best player, and former Netherlands star Edgar Davids called him the best midfielder in the world."

Is this really needed? The first two are Scholes' teammate and coach, so the first part of the quote isn't exactly nonpartisan. Second, I can understand if a Pelé, Cruyff or other footballing legend considered Scholes to be the best midfielder in the world, but Edgar Davids? C'mon. It's just one of a shameless amount of unencyclopedic quotes of Scholes' admirers singing his praises that have inundated the article. sixtynine ^{• spill it •} 07:19, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I've rephrased it and fixed it into the recent prose. Was that your only concern for the POV or does the article still have more issues? I think my re-reading of the "edgar davids" source more adequately represents the real article. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 21:32, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Fixing neutrality

I've taken these parts of the article out until they can be adequately sourced. The way some parts are written largely suggests that they weren't based on any specific reliable source in the first place. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 21:43, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Inspired goalscoring form during late 2006 and early 2007 saw players from rival Premiership teams tip Scholes to be named Footballer of the Year. Thierry Henry and Cesc Fàbregas of Arsenal, and Luis García of Liverpool, all said he was the player that they most admired. Many commentators have said that Scholes was their personal player of the year, over the high scoring Cristiano Ronaldo and Didier Drogba, although he eventually finished third behind these two, with Ronaldo claiming the top prize. He also made it into the PFA Team of the year alongside 7 of his fellow team-mates. In one edition of Match Of The Day Lee Dixon claimed that Scholes was the best footballer in the Premiership.

In his autobiography, Sir Bobby Charlton wrote that he believed that Scholes was the one player still playing who truly epitomised the spirit of Manchester United and what is great about football.

Scholes is also the only midfielder to score two hat-tricks, one against Newcastle United F.C. and one against West Ham United, in the history of the Premier League.

I'd forgotten about this discussion. Anyway, in order to maintain neutrality, I would not put any of this back into the article. There's still plenty of backslapping quotes that will eventually be reduced in the near future. The hat-trick nugget can be re-added at any time once a source for it is dug up. sixtynine ^{• spill it •} 23:35, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Booking

On 23 April 2008, Scholes made his hundredth Champions League appearance in a semi-final 0–0 draw at FC Barcelona, and scored the only goal in a 1–0 victory in the second leg that sent United into the final, during which he suffered an injury and a yellow card after a clash with Claude Makélélé.

above sentance cannot be correct. Makelele certainly did not ever play for barcelona —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.73.108.210 (talk) 15:41, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Try reading it again. The part about Makelele refers to the final. – PeeJay 17:13, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Weasel words

I don't get this. Pretty much every statement in the Playing style section is tagged with as weasel words. Isn't that just not unnecessary? It's a known fact that his fans regard him as a gifted player and etc, should we just place in the reference all the millions of Paul Scholes fans? You can't get a reference for everything, even Jimmy Wales said this (no I can't be bothered to make a reference, don't leave a citiation needed template next to what I just said... please... just take my word for it). I fail to see why everything needs a reference, especially when you can't get a tangible one. Tigernose (talk) 15:13, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Club career

In the club career section it says: "On 15 September 2009, Scholes scored his first Champions League goal since netting the winner against Barcelona in the semi-final a year and a half ago."

Perhaps it might be better as "a year and a half before"?

I don't know how to edit, but perhaps someone can assist?

Thanks, Baz. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.240.96.18 (talk) 10:25, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

 Done I have made the edit for you here. You would normally be able to edit the article the same way you edited this talk page (by clicking "edit" at the top) but this page has been semiprotected (you can tell by the silver padlock in the top-right hand corner) due to persistant vandalism; this means that only autoconfirmed users can edit it. If you want to help out a bit more you can create an account, only takes a few days to be autoconfirmed. Thanks! doomgaze (talk) 11:52, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the advice, I will sign up. Baz — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.240.96.18 (talk) 12:46, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

To whoever updated this page in the past few minutes - you have no life!! Jesus, go do something worthwhile, instead you hang around like vultures waiting, forever waiting and then.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.210.51.167 (talk) 08:23, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

There is an ugly sentence made in the Wikipedia Personal paragraph in the Paul Scholes infofile. Please remove it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.1.45.254 (talk) 14:44, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Just to follow up, there is an unfounded slur of a vulgar and sexual nature in the second paragraph, clearly vandalism. Please remove. 194.32.31.1 (talk) 15:28, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

He was born in Hope Hospital, Salford. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DonaldFranks (talk • contribs) 14:55, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Oldham support

In the first paragraph it mentions 'despite being an Oldham fan' and his first team he played for. Seems to go against the interview here? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-united/5382924/Manchester-Uniteds-Paul-Scholes-cant-wait-to-hang-up-his-boots-and-play-cricket.html

Granted, many publications will mention he is an Oldham fan (even the Telegraph again: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-united/8548962/Paul-Scholes-Manchester-Uniteds-midfield-maestro-with-a-passion-for-Oldham-Athletic.html ) but I think that's just lazy journalism. Can't edit because the article is locked, but so many articles dedicated to him at the moment seem to mention his Oldham support, seems that Wikipedia shouldn't buy into the same common misconception. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.64.95.156 (talk) 02:13, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Not sure if it counts as verifiable for Wikipedia, but this is also refuted in the Offical programme for his Testimonial game on the 5th August:

The boyhood support of Oldham is another of those stories that have become attached to him over the years. But when asked to put the record straight on that prior to the Champions League final two years ago, he suggested otherwise.

"People think I'm an Oldham fan, but I have always been United." He said. "My dad took me to a few games, but it was always really hard to get tickets. He was an Oldham fan so, from the age of nine or 10, he took me to Boundry Park because we could get in."

86.180.186.203 (talk) 16:36, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Request for edit?

Based on the above, should the "Oldham fan" line be removed? 86.180.186.203 (talk) 16:37, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 86.180.186.203, 6 August 2011

As per the Talk page, the line "The first team he played for was Langley Furrows despite being an Oldham Athletic supporter." should have the reference to Oldham removed, as there is verifiable information pointing to the fact he was/is a Manchester United fan.

86.180.186.203 (talk) 17:43, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

 Done. Well spotted, if anyone is interested he confirms he is a United fan here. doomgaze (talk) 18:00, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Victim of Recentism

The intro currently reads:

Paul Scholes (play /ˈpɔːl ˈskoʊlz/; born 16 November 1974) is an English football scout who works for Manchester United. He was a one-club man during his playing days, having spent his entire professional career with Manchester United.

.

Forgive me but Scholes is not notable for being an English football scout. He is notable for being a former midfield player for both Manchester United and the national England team.

He might make his living nowadays as a professional scout but that should not be the first line of the intro, as it's not notable unless, of course, he goes onto to surpass his playing days by discovering the next Beckham, Mese, Pele perhaps?

Using the precedent set here...Norman Whiteside is a Podiatrist who once played for man United, Dixie Dean was a publican who once played for Everton etc. The list is endless but the present intro is just stupid. Scholes is a former football player what he does now is patently after the fact! The intro should reflect that, surely? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.150.42.27 (talk) 16:28, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

 Done Thanks for pointing that out. Mosmof (talk) 18:17, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Senior career section looks stupid

The way it looks right now:

1994-2011: Manchester United
2012- : Manchester United

This looks untidy, and while Scholes did actually retire, readers could find that information easily in the article summary. The way it looks now would be understandable should there have been a long gap between retirement and return, but that wasn't really the case here.

--85.167.137.198 (talk) 17:57, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

That's the case with Peter Løvenkrands, who was realeased by Newcastle after they got relegated and rejoined two months later. As I see it, he wasn't registered to play for the club between the end of May and the start of January so they're two seperate spells. VEO^onefive 15:56, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

PAUL SCHOLES, HE SCORES GOALS!

Peter Lovenkrands was released and then rejoined, he was still an active player, Paul Scholes retired and then came back so I think the career section should be 1994-present, the way it is now is doesn't make sense and doesn't look right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.97.186.203 (talk) 19:16, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Agree, I think it would look much more coherent to the reader if both 'spells' were incorporated. He only spent half a season in retirement, after all. Applesandapples (talk) 21:30, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I'd argue that if the choice is between reflecting the facts – that Scholes was contracted to MUFC as a senior player from 1993 to 2011, at which point he retired and was not contracted as a player, and then he changed his mind and was re-contracted from 2012 – and avoiding looking stupid or untidy or incoherent, any self-respecting encyclopedia would choose to reflect the facts. Sorry if that sounds offensive, it isn't meant to.

Further, including the gap adds additional information for the benefit of the reader: showing them that there was a gap, that Mr Scholes' career with MUFC was interrupted for some reason. We'd be doing the reader no favours if we rewrote history by implying that there was no gap. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 21:53, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree with the majority of the comments here. But I will put a footnote to indicate that Scholes briefly retired during the 2011-12 season. --Tocino 12:29, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 14 January 2012

In his 2nd appearance since coming out of retirement in the 2011/12 Season, Scholes scored a goal against Bolton Wanderers in the minutes leading to half time. (14/01/2012) Hulkza (talk) 15:52, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Has already been included--Jac16888 ^Talk 15:09, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 13 March 2012

• FA Youth Cup (1): 1991-92 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scholesss (talk • contribs) 16:32, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Further Edit Request.

Paul Scholes, he scores goals. (Famous Old Trafford Chant) But his real skill is in midfield with the ability to pick out players with the accuracy of a snooker player. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.26.221 (talk) 00:18, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

 Not done A terrace chant is not a reliable source --Mosmof (talk) 02:31, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Stats

The league apps/goals figures in the infobox don't match the Premier League totals in the career stats table further down - which is correct........? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:46, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

499 league appearances and 107 league goals is correct. I have fixed the Infobox... JMHamo (talk) 18:02, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Disciplinary record

Strange to mention it during the introduction, and utterly idiotic to add it to a sentence about his status in the game. Nobody who understands football would use his fairly unremarkable ten red cards as a way to balance the fact that he's one of the greats. Written by a Liverpool or City fan? Pathetic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.196.233.113 (talk) 02:54, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't say it's unremarkable. The most career red cards in league football history is 13, and the Premier League record is 8. Although the red cards are spread out over multiple competitions for club and country, anything in double digits is remarkable. But even if, for the sake of discussion, we decided it was unremarkable, it's worth mentioning alongside the 99 career bookings in the league. Mosmof (talk) 03:59, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

That's due to his longevity, though. Ten red cards across nearly 20 years of service - ie one red card every two years - is a fairly uninteresting stat. So while it may be remarkable in the context of an unremarkable collation of dull information, the original point is that sticking it on the end of the sentence about him being one of the best of his generation feels kinda petty. As the first part of the sentence alludes to, many of the great midfielders cite Scholes as the best of his type. They don't care in the slightest that he had a few red cards. Nobody really does. Which is why the idea that he was often criticised for it is also wrong. Most focused on how great a player he was rather than the red card he got every two years.

On further inspection, my point is backed up perfectly by the omission from Patrick Vieira's intro of his disciplinary record, which of course is worse than Paul Scholes'. The same goes for Roy Keane. But with Scholes it's used as a subtle way to detract from his reputation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.222.34.177 (talk) 02:55, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

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Reception section

In September and October about 40,000 bytes of content were added to the Reception section, with lonq quotes from about seventy people – pundits, managers and players – all praising Scholes. The content was subsequently tagged as "Over-quotation". In my view, the approx 40,000 bytes added was highly excessive. WP:QUOTEFARM guidelines state that quotes are overused when the quotations dominate the article or section. The Reception section was clearly dominated by quotes after approx 40,000 bytes were added.

WP:QUOTEFARM guidelines also state: "Quotations embody the breezy, emotive style common in fiction and some journalism, which is generally not suited to encyclopedic writing. Long quotations crowd the actual article and distract attention from other information."

In addition, guidelines at WP:NOTNEWSPAPER state: "Wikipedia considers the enduring notability of persons and events. While news coverage can be useful source material for encyclopedic topics, most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion and Wikipedia is not written in news style. For example, routine news coverage of announcements, events, sports, or celebrities, while sometimes useful, is not by itself a sufficient basis for inclusion of the subject of that coverage."

I'm sure the vast majority of people who follow football would acknowledge that Paul Scholes was a great player. He was a hugely gifted, talented midfielder. But that doesn't mean an encyclopedia needs quotes from about seventy people to all praise his talent. The Reception section before the approx 40,000 bytes were added still made it fully clear that many others, such as Zinedine Zidane and Edgar Davids spoke of their admiration for Scholes. Quotes were included from Thierry Henry, Bobby Charlton, Marcello Lippi, Nani, Xavi, Pep Guardiola and Gareth Southgate to describe the qualities of Scholes before numerous other long quotes and approx 40,000 bytes were added.

Despite the "Over-quotation" tag, more and more quotes kept being added recently to the Reception section and therefore I supported the edit by Footballgy on 17 October to restore the article back to how it was. However, the restoration by the editor "Footballgy" was later reverted by the same IP editor who previously added many of the overly long quotes.

I'm tonight reverting the article back again, as per the previous edit summary by "Footballgy". I don't think more long quotes should be added to the section again unless there's a clear consensus on this talk page that so many quotes are justified. Regards, Kind Tennis Fan (talk) 22:48, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks KTF, yeah apologies for not grabbing a consultation on the edit, I was just observing for a while and I thought it would be easier just to restore the section from a few weeks ago which read fine and it meant we could remove the templates. Just thought I'd kill it dead before it got even further out of hand. I have never been a fan of removing people's research as the IP user clearly is making the edits in good faith but it was getting a bit silly and it was dragging the overall quality of the article down. Footballgy (talk) 06:19, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi, thank you both for your contributions. I hope we can all assume good faith, avoid warring over our opinions of the section and work on improving it.

If the objection is long quotes, then I will work on trimming that down as you have been doing Kind Tennis Fan. However, in the meanttime if you can avoid blanket removal Footballgy whilst this is ongoing then that would be appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.65.24.57 (talk) 21:08, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Please see the updated section. Feel free to make any amendments to improve readability. Kind regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.65.24.57 (talk) 00:23, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi, I've rewritten the content reducing the quotes. I've boldly removed the tag now. Please adjust accordingly if required. 84.65.24.57 (talk) 13:50, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi, the section is around the subject's peers, retired footballers, former teammates and manager's commentary on his playing ability. Direct quotes are around 40% of the section. I'm unsure what more is needed here. 84.65.24.57 (talk) 08:00, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

What is actually needed is a lot less. This section is not required and would prevent the article ever being recognised as a WP:GA or WP:FA. It completely fails to satisfy core editorial standards. Leaky caldron (talk) 20:52, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

OK, then can you please replace the current over-quotation tag with a more appropriate one based on policy and guidance instead so it can be addressed? Given the size of the overall article compared to that section I can't see WP:UNDUE being an issue here. 84.65.24.57 (talk) 09:58, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

I've got to agree with Leaky caldron, by continuing to add more and more quotes and build this section has just taken away the readable quality of the article and makes it look lopsided again. No offence, but the section before you began adding to it was perfectly fine and if anything only needed a couple of light additions. Like I've said your edits are in good faith and I commend you for that, but it seems like complete overkill now. Footballgy (talk) 09:48, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

I've tried to constructively cut the section down to relevant information and removed the over quotation tag. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.241.92.227 (talk) 08:47, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

The level of detail was staggeringly over the top, so I've reworked it to mostly how it was previously. Mattythewhite (talk) 01:05, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

The content restored included non-RS content, lengthy quotes and dead links. I've reworked it with a variation of few different opinions each from former players, teammates, captains and managers on the subject's playing ability. RevertBob (talk) 22:41, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, but this is still way too much content. Obscenely so. It now reads like a hagiography rather than an encyclopaedic biography. Mattythewhite (talk) 22:44, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

If we look at the word count for those paragraphs there was previously just over 400 words and now just over 1,000 words. I've tried to restructure the layout with a balance of notable opinions ranging from different stages of the subject's playing career i.e. during his playing career and upon retirement from articles rewritten about the subject's reception throughout his career discarding similar comments. RevertBob (talk) 08:00, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

I have reverted to the last sensible version by User:Mattythewhite. There is not the remotest semblence of a concensus for the massive so called reception section being incrementally re-added by IP/User. Until there IS consensus, it should be discussed here first, please. Leaky caldron (talk) 15:30, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

So the section has been separated into paragaphs of quotes from retired footballers, fellow players, teammates, managers/pundits and coaches so it follows a particular structure with times of if they were said during the subject's playing career where relevant. The first sentence then increased slightly so it doesn't look out of place along with supporting citations.

The Sócrates and Xavi quotes have been shortened. Thierry Henry quote expanded slightly so it makes more sense. The Andrea Pirlo quote has been replaced with a more appropriate and shorter one. A short quote from Zidane added. The Nani quote is a deadlink and I couldn't find a replacement so it's been removed and replaced with ones from Ryan Giggs and Peter Schmeichel.

Quotes from his former coach Eric Harrison and former manager Alex Ferguson have been added.

The section has seven paragraphs including 15 quotes with the words increased from 500 to 700. RevertBob (talk) 18:59, 24 November 2023 (UTC)